Last of Us II (SPOILERS)

[Frobisher]

So, gameplay wise, the improvements felt quite subtle, but overall pretty good. As usual in this sort of thing I ended up with full stacks of crafting materials and ammo a lot of the time (which always undermines the survival horror theme a bit), and this was in part because Ellie's knife was a bit too good. The enemy AI often meant that crafted weapons would only rarely kill at better than 1:1 and would alert others, and lining up head shots on a moving target with the DS4 can pop you out of cover for an uncomfortable length of time, so it often feels easier to just sneak right up to people and silently shank them. I'd say both of these problems improved in the second half though. The early section with the horse sort of hinted at a more open structure to areas, but that doesn't really continue at all as the game progresses, and we still, in 2020, have puzzles where you need to explore an area to find a safe code without accidentally leaving the area through a one-way door.

Ellie's part is over so quickly I genuinely thought the game was about to end, so I was hugely relieved when I realised they were actually going to do a Resi 2 style switcheroo (though it's never a retread of the exact same areas). Each murder of one of Abby's group has that same feeling as the end of the first game where you're like, I'm not entirely comfortable with this, and Ellie is clearly turning into a rage monster who places bloody revenge over the safety of her friends. You also have the dawning revelaton of the mess that Seattle has become, though Ellie is largely oblivious to this, merely reacting with contempt and bewilderment that everyone attacks her on sight. An argument could be made that the bleak warzone of Seattle that the characters stalk each other through is the true legacy of Joel's actions, with the Fireflies disbanded and humanity now turned fully into infighting with no glimmer of hope - though probably people would still have found a way to hate each other.

When Abby's half came around I first thought we were going to witness Ellie's killing spree from a different perspective, like a monster movie - the feel of the loading screen with Ellie's snarling face takes on a different tenor as we see her victims as people - but then it went a pretty different way. Probably it would have been quite different if Abby had been aware of all the suffering her revenge had brought upon her friends. Abby is kind of a jerk for dragging her friends into that, but we've already seen that what Ellie does to them is way worse - Nora's death is flat out horrific, and then Ellie's shanking pregnant women. The second half also injects some much needed variety in settings and set-pieces, like the skyscraper and Resi 4 village island.

I loved that the point of the story was that rage destroyed everyone, and they could have built something with the people close to them instead. Interesting that both sides in the war believe the other broke the truce, but their deep mutual distrust and flawed, power hungry leadership basically made the conflict inevitable. After all the morally grey stuff, it was actually a relief to find the slavers at the end. Dressed like Walter from the Big Lebowski, and like every wannabe paramilitary arsehole with a gun, it felt really cathartic to finally massacre some unambiguously trash people.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Again, the zombie outbreak in TLOU is very different from the real world covid-19 outbreak.

You keep saying this to dodge the fact that the vaccine-for-human-sacrifice idea doesn't have any grounding in medical science procedures and as such fails to pass the basic criteria for realism, that can't be refuted. The Last of Us is presented to us as a realistic approach to the zombie apocalypse genre, i.e. trying to be as close as possible to what people would do, and how things would look like if were to happen. That's why you have nature reclaiming stuff in a big way because earlier zombie apocalypse movies and games largely neglected that. Again this approach was fine at the end of The last of Us-1, but it's not fine in a sequel that insists for sympathy and justice on behalf of a quack doctor advocating human sacrifice.

I think you and I have a very different idea for what qualifies as a regular person.

Okay let's see in video game terms. Most video game protagonists, whether they are male (and in some cases when they are female), tend to be elite characters. They are soldiers, super-soldiers or some variety. These kind of characters are elites, in the sense that they can be understood as a warrior caste. Devs can justify them knowing how to use and handle weapons and so can instantly ground the setting and gameplay. So you know all the space marines from Doom to Gears of War, with more realistic flavors like Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Next to this you have Mario, yes Nintendo's Super Mario, a stocky plumber whose gameplay involves jumping and interacting with his hands and legs. Mario doesn't start a game with all his power-ups, he has to find it in the world and levels. Between Space Marines and Mario, Mario is closer to a regular person in terms of gameplay experience.

On a spectrum between Doomguy and Mario, Joel and Ellie in The Last of Us-1, are closer to the Mario side, while Abby is closer to the Doomguy side. So on that level, Abby isn't a regular person as compared to Joel and Ellie. I don't mean not regular in terms of physical appearance or anything like that, no issues with that. I mean entirely in terms of how the narrative frames things. When we see Ellie and Jackson we see people build huts and settlements by hand, we see a mix of reconstructed suburbia with a medieval looking blacksmith and furnace. When we start with Abby, we see her waking in a facility that's basically a military-industrial complex...we pass by soldiers in gyms in large halls with training and everything, a huge mess hall, an actual workable gun range.

Sorry but I've seen this argument used too often to take it seriously. Every time something someone hates becomes a hit, they either try to dismiss it as a failure by some arbitrary metric or they come up with reasons why it failed other than the fact most people liked it.

In the same way that The last of us Part II getting reviewbombed by xenophobes online on Metacritic was largely done by people who could not have possibly finished the game (in that just a few hours after launch, they got more user reviews and ratings than God of War (PS4) did over 2 years)...the great launch sales of The last of us Part II were bought by people who didn't play the game beforehand. And the launch sales of a title is based on advertising, marketing, and the equity built up by previous games in a franchise (in the case of ND - Uncharted Games, The Last of Us Part 1). In any case, The last of us Part II is intended to be an arty game of some kind, the one that isn't supposed to be popcorn stuff that people just use success to wave all criticism away. And the devs do care about reviews, as we can see in their passive aggressive attempts to shut down criticism.

An argument could be made that the bleak warzone of Seattle that the characters stalk each other through is the true legacy of Joel's actions,

The conflict between the WLF and Seraphites happened in parallel to the events we see in the first game. It's a locally centered issue in Seattle based on Fedra versus WLF, and then WLF and Seraphites. As for Joel's true legacy...it's Jackson's community, all the people who kept messages at his house. It's the happiness that Ellie briefly shares with Dina and JJ.

...and then Ellie's shanking pregnant women.

This is inaccurate. Ellie asked Mel and Owen politely and calmly for information telling them they didn't have to die. She didn't know Mel was pregnant (because the coat covered her bump and Mel refused to say that she was pregnant as the first thing). They were the ones who attacked her and she reacted in self-defense. Mel was the one who endangered her child and got them both killed.

Dressed like Walter from the Big Lebowski, and like every wannabe paramilitary arsehole with a gun, it felt really cathartic to finally massacre some unambiguously trash people.

Doesn't that in fact defeat the entire purpose of the "vengeance is bad, violence is bad" story the game is trying to manipulate you into feeling?

[Farealmer]

Again, the zombie outbreak in TLOU is very different from the real world covid-19 outbreak. Your argument here seems like an awful lot of projection to prove that no one would have accepted an ending where Joel let Ellie die. I don't know how that ending would have been received because I'm not a precog but it isn't like the actual ending we got didn't also have troubling implications either.

This, this is a disease that allows humans to survive in freezing temps for extended durations without proper clothing. Without even getting into clickers, bloaters, and whatever it was the Abby fought. Zombie diseases are basically magic even the ones that try to sound scientific. Treating them like normal pathogens is folly.

[Farealmer]

Each murder of one of Abby's group has that same feeling as the end of the first game where you're like, I'm not entirely comfortable with this, and Ellie is clearly turning into a rage monster who places bloody revenge over the safety of her friends.

I really wish the game would of called Ellie on that. It clearly effected her. But without any reflection time and neither Dina nor Jesse calling her out it only emboldened her to take the next step.

Abby is kind of a jerk for dragging her friends into that, but we've already seen that what Ellie does to them is way worse -

The thing I really liked about the Abby sections is it shows how her revenge impacts her life. It destroyed her relationship with Owen, and Mel thought Abby was a monster to the point of taking a "her or me" stance when it came to leaving Seattle. I also like how it started with her having nightmares both before she killed Joel and after. Showing that revenge didn't truly bring her peace. It reminds me of Kratos from the latest GoW when he said "This path you walk, vengeance. You will find no peace. I know.". Unfortunately Dina never called Ellie out until the end when her course had already been set, to the point of even a "Abby or Us" ultimatum didn't stop Ellie. So only then does Ellie really suffer permanent consequences for her vengeance. I don't consider Jesse because while he was her friend I never really got the sense she was as close to him as she was to Dina or Abby was to Owen.

Nora's death is flat out horrific, and then Ellie's shanking pregnant women.

It was rather ironic she did to Nora what Abby did to Joel. Except unlike Abby, Nora wasn't even Ellie's target, she did that brutality only as a set up to commit more brutality.
Mel was a travesty. The fact that Ellie was pulling Tommy's "play them against each other" trick I am not sure she would of spared them even if they had talked. Because AFAIK she never spared a single person and even the slaver at the end she killed even when he told her everything. Even if she did Jesse and Tommy were right on her heels I could see Tommy gunning them both down and while i don't think Jesse would of liked it he would of backed down like he did with Ellie. It was an interesting contrast with Dina who, instead of hiding and having virtually guaranteed survival, she attacked in clear disregard for her and her baby's life but because of someone not involved in this conflict(Lev) she was spared.

Interesting that both sides in the war believe the other broke the truce, but their deep mutual distrust and flawed, power hungry leadership basically made the conflict inevitable.

I also feel it almost reflects with the Ellie/Abby conflict. Neither side trusted the other and since it was spearheaded by people consumed by vengeance(Abby and Ellie) there was really no chance for any resolution except the one Isaac saw with his enemies, total destruction. If not for Owen and Lev Ellie and her friends would have been killed twice over. I only wish someone on Ellie's side had that kind of restraint.

After all the morally grey stuff, it was actually a relief to find the slavers at the end. Dressed like Walter from the Big Lebowski, and like every wannabe paramilitary arsehole with a gun, it felt really cathartic to finally massacre some unambiguously trash people.

I do like they showed that there were still ravaging hordes of people out there. They really nailed that point in 1 so it was a nice contrast to the tribal violence of Seattle or the normalcy of Jackson.

[Drako]

I don't consider Jesse because while he was her friend I never really got the sense she was as close to him as she was to Dina or Abby was to Owen.

Jessie was her friend for years, Joel even said in the flashback the he thinks Ellie had a crush on him cause they were so close all the time. He left Jackson to help her and die cause of this.
He is also the only person to actually go against what Ellie wanted and go in separate ways.

It was an interesting contrast with Dina who, instead of hiding and having virtually guaranteed survival, she attacked in clear disregard for her and her baby's life but because of someone not involved in this conflict(Lev) she was spared.

Mel don't seem to have much regard for her baby safety either, since the WLF were in war with the scars and she was out there doing missions with a big pregnant belly.

[Farealmer]

Jessie was her friend for years, Joel even said in the flashback the he thinks Ellie had a crush on him cause they were so close all the time. He left Jackson to help her and die cause of this.
He is also the only person to actually go against what Ellie wanted and go in separate ways.

I do wish they would of went into more of that. Both Jesse and Ellie and Jesse going against what he thought was wrong. But my point was that while his death was sad it didn't have the same story impact as Joel's, Abby's dad, or Owen's. He died on their way out and was only mentioned in passing after. Not much different than Manny.

Mel don't seem to have much regard for her baby safety either, since the WLF were in war with the scars and she was out there doing missions with a big pregnant belly.

You could say the same about Dina being a second away from taking her mask off in a vain effort to save Ellie from spores. Both women were doing things they shouldn't be doing. In the end both woman wanted out. Mel was prepared to give Abby up to save her baby and Dina didn't stick around after Ellie bailed on them. I only wish Mel would of got to see her baby born like Dina did. But she didn't get her miracle for her reckless behavior like Dina did.

[Drako]

You could say the same about Dina being a second away from taking her mask off in a vain effort to save Ellie from spores. Both women were doing things they shouldn't be doing. In the end both woman wanted out. Mel was prepared to give Abby up to save her baby and Dina didn't stick around after Ellie bailed on them. I only wish Mel would of got to see her baby born like Dina did. But she didn't get her miracle for her reckless behavior like Dina did.

She shouldn't be out there in the first place, in her late stages of pregnancy. Not only that, but she was a medic. You saw the two bases the WLF had. I'm pretty sure they could find someone to replace her. It is pretty stupid.

Would be much more convincing if Abby came to her asking for help to save Yara and then she would go the aquarium.

[Farealmer]

She shouldn't be out there in the first place, in her late stages of pregnancy. Not only that, but she was a medic. You saw the two bases the WLF had. I'm pretty sure they could find someone to replace her. It is pretty stupid.

Would be much more convincing if Abby came to her asking for help to save Yara and then she would go the aquarium.

The ironic thing is that's not what got her killed. Considering the order of events she likely would of ended up dead even if she didn't go out at all.

[Drako]

The ironic thing is that's not what got her killed. Considering the order of events she likely would of ended up dead even if she didn't go out at all.

Sure. But that's not the point i was arguing.

You said that Dina should hide and watch her girlfriend die, but didn't so she have no regard for her baby.
That's why i brought Mel situation in the battlefield.

[Farealmer]

Sure. But that's not the point i was arguing.

You said that Dina should hide and watch her girlfriend die, but didn't so she have no regard for her baby.
That's why i brought Mel situation in the battlefield.

What Mel did has no bearing on what Dina did. Mel doing it doesn't give Dina a pass. So I am confused why you made it to begin with.

[Drako]

What Mel did has no bearing on what Dina did. Mel doing it doesn't give Dina a pass. So I am confused why you made it to begin with.

I was talking about this:

It was an interesting contrast with Dina who, instead of hiding and having virtually guaranteed survival, she attacked in clear disregard for her and her baby's life but because of someone not involved in this conflict(Lev) she was spared.

I thought you were complaining about Dina trying to save Ellie, despite being pregnant.

If you weren't, then nevermind.

[Farealmer]

I was talking about this:



I thought you were complaining about Dina trying to save Ellie, despite being pregnant.

If you weren't, then nevermind.

I was, but that was while I was contrasting them. Dina had a choice because Abby and Lev had no idea she was there. Mel was probably dead the instant Ellie got the drop on them. She really had no choice but to go for it when an opening happened. She also probably hoped she would be able to help Owen if she killed Ellie. Those events have nothing to do with them doing reckless stuff before. People who consider Mel reckless there are doing it mostly as a way to blame her over Ellie. If Tommy or Jesse had been alone with Dina and someone got the drop on them and Jesse or Tommy tried for the gun and got themselves and Dina killed somehow I don't think they'd of taken as much heat over it from the fans as Owen and Mel did. Especially if the shooter was Abby or one of the salt lake crew.

[Wall-Crawler]

On the plus side, I don't think the game is as hated by fans as the internet would make us believe though, it's just that they are a very vocal group and many of the fan reviews are just review bombing of people who haven't even seen the story in its entirety, of course there are those who have seen it all and still dislike it, that's totally valid, but from what I've seen, actually a big majority of the fandom likes it. I joined a really big FB group (40k members) dedicated solely to the discussion of Part II and so far about 70% of the posts are very positive and 30% are very negative, there hardly seems to be a middle ground, it's either love or hate, but at least from that big group, I've seen way more love than hate.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

On the plus side, I don't think the game is as hated by fans as the internet would make us believe though, it's just that they are a very vocal group and many of the fan reviews are just review bombing of people who haven't even seen the story in its entirety, of course there are those who have seen it all and still dislike it, that's totally valid, but from what I've seen, actually a big majority of the fandom likes it. I joined a really big FB group (40k members) dedicated solely to the discussion of Part II and so far about 70% of the posts are very positive and 30% are very negative, there hardly seems to be a middle ground, it's either love or hate, but at least from that big group, I've seen way more love than hate.

Well the criticism is sufficient enough that Naughty Dog and Sony are passive-aggressively trying to shut it down
(https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/30/21...s4-playstation). Which honestly is of a piece with the fairly sleazy manner in which this entire game was produced and conducted. Going after the reporter who exposed the crunch and exploitation practised at the studio.

Ultimately, this isn't really an election. More people liking a game does not mean critics are voted out, nor would it be the case if it was the other way around (i.e. some people liking a game or a product that's universally disliked). A lot of people do like this game but a lot dislike it too. Some people hate this game for bigoted reasons. Fundamentally, it's too early in the day to really decide what the reputation of this game will be. It's not going to take a week or two weeks or a month to tell how people will feel about this game. My feeling is that when the passion cools on all sides, people will see the game as generally inferior to the first one, and a conceptually interesting but poorly executed final product but filled with moments that are special.

Take Bioshock Infinite, highly anticipated sequel to a gamechanging first game, released in 2013, same year as The Last of Us, also has Troy Baker as lead VO in a Dad role to a companion AI. At the time, many people praised that game as the greatest game of all time and it got reviews like you can't believe. It hardly comes up often these days, and if it's remembered it's as an above average but overhyped and inferior follow-up to the first game filled with problematic subtext, weak ideas, and incoherent mixes between story and gameplay. So that might be what awaits The Last of Us Part II.

[TriggerWarning]

Well the criticism is sufficient enough that Naughty Dog and Sony are passive-aggressively trying to shut it down
(https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/30/21...s4-playstation). Which honestly is of a piece with the fairly sleazy manner in which this entire game was produced and conducted. Going after the reporter who exposed the crunch and exploitation practised at the studio.

Ultimately, this isn't really an election. More people liking a game does not mean critics are voted out, nor would it be the case if it was the other way around (i.e. some people liking a game or a product that's universally disliked). A lot of people do like this game but a lot dislike it too. Some people hate this game for bigoted reasons. Fundamentally, it's too early in the day to really decide what the reputation of this game will be. It's not going to take a week or two weeks or a month to tell how people will feel about this game. My feeling is that when the passion cools on all sides, people will see the game as generally inferior to the first one, and a conceptually interesting but poorly executed final product but filled with moments that are special.

Take Bioshock Infinite, highly anticipated sequel to a gamechanging first game, released in 2013, same year as The Last of Us, also has Troy Baker as lead VO in a Dad role to a companion AI. At the time, many people praised that game as the greatest game of all time and it got reviews like you can't believe. It hardly comes up often these days, and if it's remembered it's as an above average but overhyped and inferior follow-up to the first game filled with problematic subtext, weak ideas, and incoherent mixes between story and gameplay. So that might be what awaits The Last of Us Part II.

You can't believe the user reviews on this game. Right now it has 109,483 user review ratings on metacritic. By comparison the FFVII remake has 5462. The PS4 Spiderman has less than 5000. The first Last of Us has just over 11,000.

Its very obvious that this game got review bombed by homophobes, transphobes, and people scared of Abby's muscles (aka she isn't fappable for them) for being unrealistic yet are undoubtedly silent on other video game females like Quiet from Metal Gear Solid or any waifu looking girl from most any Japanese game.