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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    You can't believe the user reviews on this game.
    I actually agree. And I wasn't just talking about the game's user reviews.

    I am talking about the fact that Naughty Dog the game's publisher are outright trying to chill criticism of the game even ones that come from more neutral corners. As that Polygon article mentioned:

    That protective shield around The Last of Us Part 2 can be seen any time the creatives or talent behind the game jump into critical conversations about it. It’s made talking about the game exhausting. On the one hand, we have bigots trying their hardest to tear the game down for its inclusion of queer characters. On the other hand, we’ve got the people who actually made the game putting their figurative fists up. On the third hand (go with it), we’ve got fans and professional critics trying to share their own takes on the game, good and bad and everything in between.
    There are neutral criticisms of the game, and ND isn't dealing with that very well which suggests some very thin skin, and I suspect, a guilty conscience about how they overworked their staff.

    Its very obvious that this game got review bombed by homophobes, transphobes, and people scared of Abby's muscles (aka she isn't fappable for them) for being unrealistic yet are undoubtedly silent on other video game females like Quiet from Metal Gear Solid or any waifu looking girl from most any Japanese game.
    Again I agree. I will add that Metal Gear Solid V Phantom Pain is another example of a really superhyped and overpraised-at-launch sequel ultimately becoming diminished over time.

    In any case, just because a media product becomes an object of hate by the "wrong crowd" doesn't mean that the game in question is validated. Right wing types and obnoxious types are irrational by nature (remember how Rush Limbaugh went after Chris Nolan's The Dark Knight Rises for being anti-Romney because the villain resembled Romney's company Bain Capital?). And some people in the LGBTQ community have issues with the game, with the way it portrays Lev.

    Eventually the game will face further backlash for the fact that after promising and building up Ellie as the biggest lesbian character in gaming, she's not allowed to headline her own full game the way Joel got to in The Last of Us. Put together TLoU, Left Behind, TLoU-2, and in playtime, Joel is still the biggest campaign and protagonist of the series, while Ellie gets second place with a small lead. The subtext of TLoU-2, with the lesbian girl condemned for (accidentally) killing a (highly irresponsible and idiotic) hetero woman, her girlfriend being bisexual (and so available in the narrative to become a baby carrier) and ultimately leaving her, does come off as glorified queerbaiting.

  2. #62
    Incredible Member Wall-Crawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Ultimately, this isn't really an election. More people liking a game does not mean critics are voted out, nor would it be the case if it was the other way around (i.e. some people liking a game or a product that's universally disliked). A lot of people do like this game but a lot dislike it too. Some people hate this game for bigoted reasons. Fundamentally, it's too early in the day to really decide what the reputation of this game will be. It's not going to take a week or two weeks or a month to tell how people will feel about this game. My feeling is that when the passion cools on all sides, people will see the game as generally inferior to the first one, and a conceptually interesting but poorly executed final product but filled with moments that are special.

    Take Bioshock Infinite, highly anticipated sequel to a gamechanging first game, released in 2013, same year as The Last of Us, also has Troy Baker as lead VO in a Dad role to a companion AI. At the time, many people praised that game as the greatest game of all time and it got reviews like you can't believe. It hardly comes up often these days, and if it's remembered it's as an above average but overhyped and inferior follow-up to the first game filled with problematic subtext, weak ideas, and incoherent mixes between story and gameplay. So that might be what awaits The Last of Us Part II.
    I never said that Part II was better than the first game, I think it's obvious that the first game is better, I am just saying that Part II was still a really good videogame that many people have judged without even giving it a chance, I do agree it is still too early to see how this game will be viewed as a whole down the line, but I am quite confident that once the very vocal group goes silent, this game will be viewed as really good but inferior sequel to the original.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    I never said that Part II was better than the first game, I think it's obvious that the first game is better, I am just saying that Part II was still a really good videogame that many people have judged without even giving it a chance, I do agree it is still too early to see how this game will be viewed as a whole down the line, but I am quite confident that once the very vocal group goes silent, this game will be viewed as really good but inferior sequel to the original.
    Complete agreement on this.

  4. #64
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    Laura Bailey is getting death threats.

    https://twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/st...73199918292992

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Laura Bailey is getting death threats.

    https://twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/st...73199918292992
    That's disgusting and unacceptable.

    No ifs and buts.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Laura Bailey is getting death threats.

    https://twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/st...73199918292992
    Considering how black and white people see Abby, I am not surprised. Disgusted, but not surprised.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Wall-Crawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Laura Bailey is getting death threats.

    https://twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/st...73199918292992
    Those kind of people belong on a mental hospital, something needs to be seriously wrong with a person to say shit like that over a videogame.

  8. #68
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Finally finished this at 31 hours and I have thoughts.

    First off I never read any spoilers and it sucks for ND that any were relesaed. The first thing I did when I beat this was go back and see what leaked and I cant believe it was as detailed as it was. When playing the game, I was like oh so we really gonna MGS2 this? I immediately understood why people were upset. Having Ellie be the villian of this game was definitely a twist I did not see, nor was making me play as the person I had thought would was up till that moment.

    ND did subvert other expectations. I always had a feeling that Joel would be killed and that would set Ellie on her path of revenge. Everyone else seemed to be convinced it would have been Dina but we didnt know Dina and Joel always seemed like the most likely choice. With him being revealed to be in the game after dodging him in early trailers, I surmised that he would be a ghost and/or flashbacks. I did not like Dina from the clips we saw and was hoping I was wrong in that she would die and was like ugh, when she showed up as a companion. I also really did not like how messy she was with the love triangle and I felt Ellie's anger when she revealed she was pregnant. I really liked Jessie and thought he was a cool dude and it sucked that he died. I dont think I'd have been upset had it bee Dina in that scene instead. With that said, she was good for Ellie and they had a realistic relationship.

    Lets talk about Abby now. I initially thought she was kinda bland when you play as her in Jackson but that turned to pure hate when she killed Joel. I did not like that they made us play as her midway. I was not protective of her and did not find myself caring when she died. I was like good. I really enjoyed Ellie, her supporting cast and that story arc and didnt appreciate how abruptly that was cut for this detour. I thought at first it would be at most an hour as you play through the flashback to flesh her out and key moments that would shed light on the confrontation but this in and of itself was its own major chunk of the game. Honestly it was too long and the pacing here was off. It almost felt like it could have been DLC bc most of what you did had nothing to do with Ellie's story. When Yara died, it felt like that stuff was a waste of time as I didnt get why Abby kept sticking her neck out for these kids. The only take away I got from this was that it showed you why Lev was so important to her but I dont think narratively that needed to be told. The game did do a good job of making me feel empathetic towards her bc ultimately she wasnt a bad person. Yeah she killed Joel but that was justified IMO. Joel killed her father, a bunch of Fireflies, whom were like family and the only beacon of hope for humanity to survive the infection. Not only that but then Ellie murders all her friends. On the flipside Abby shows her mercy repeatedly and she sticks her neck out to save 2 kids, something that Ellie wouldnt have. Abby's biggest mistake is that she had 3 chances to kill Ellie but she didnt. I thought she should have in the final battle when Ellie was on the floor crying. She should have snapped her neck

    Ellie made me really dislike her in this game. Usually the people you kill are randoms or clearly bad guys, but Abby's crew was not that. She was vicious and sadistic and blinded by her rage. Abby could have killed her twice (and Tommy and Dina) but she showed them mercy. After the confrontation, they were even and Ellie shoudl have left it alone as she had a happy life. She has PTSD and I guess she felt the best way to deal with it was to kill Abby but it was the wrong decision. When she got to the beach and cut Abby down, I thought that was her redemption moment as she finally showed some real growth but then she told her to fight and threatened to kill Lev. WTF?!? Talk about kicking a person when they are down. Abby had been tortured, weak and malnourished by that point and it wasnt fair especially since Ellie had a knife. This final act ruined her as a character for me. She did let Abby go but Im not convinced she wouldnt try to find her again which is why I said Abby should have killed her for her own piece of mind. When she returns and Dina is gone, its really what she deserved. Dina was over her BS and I bet it must have sucked waiting in that house for someone that may never return

    Lets talk about gender. I was confused by Abby's build and thought ND was going to reveal her to be transgender. I was waiting for it but then figured she only got that way bc she was obsessed with being physically able to take on Joel. We did get a transgender character in the form of Lev. Actually when we first met him, I thought that was a girl. I didnt realize he was identifying as a boy until some time into him as a companion. He was called Lily once which confused me as he alluded to a secret but Abby didnt ask. I thought he was called that bc they were teasing him. When it was mentioned that he was intended to be a wife, thats when it finally hit me. I liked that they didnt beat you over the head with it but rather had enough context clues to guess it for yourself. BTW, he was one of my favorite character

    Where was Tommy in the resort chapter? I thought Ellie was going to link up with him but he doesnt pop up at all. Also was he blind in one eye? I couldnt tell

    As far as gameplay goes, I loved it. Much improved from the first game. People were upset that dogs would be in this game bc you may have to kill them but I was like F all them dogs and made it a point to take them out first bc of the scent trailing. I preferred Ellie's gameplay bc I preferred the bow and arrow over the crossbow, not to mention molotov. I also liked that she had a knife and didnt need to craft shivs

    If I were to rate it, Im conflicted with the score. I can see the 10s but the Abby section really dragged the game down to an 8 for me. Completing it I see what ND was going for and I can appreciate it so I think 9 would be fair.

    I did think the game was a bit too easy on normal bc there were so many supplies and I never ran out of ammo. When I replay it, Im going to do so on a harder setting and will make sure to limit the resources

  9. #69
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    After sitting with this game for a bit, I'm still mixed on it.

    Gameplay was okay, no real big complaints there.

    Graphics: Great. awesome. It's a beautiful game

    Story: UGH. This is the make or break of a game for me. 7yrs been waiting for this game and I'm still mixed on it. I could see what they were trying to do, but honestly what was the point. It's a revenge tale but at the end there is no revenge. So was the last 20+ hours a waste?? I don't know. but it's whatever. They told the story they wanted and there is literally nothing anyone can do about it so I mean all the arguing I've seen online is just pointless. It is what is. LOL!
    There was revenge. Did you not see how Abby was at the end? Ellie killed all her friends. Abby is gaunt and has nothing but Lev. She is left with the fear that at any moment Ellie could return to kill them. Thats not really an ideal way to live. On the flipside, the tale of revenge works both ways as Abby got revenge on the guy that murdered her family. I dont think its true to say there was no revenge

  10. #70
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Finally finished it. I get why people hate Abby but i also get what naughty dog was going for. I think they just made the mistake of under estimating how much people loved Joel.

    Question though why did Abby have a man's body? I get she was a solider in insane shape but it wasn't just the muscle it was the shape of her shoulders and hands. I'm guessing between that and Lev there was a Gender spectrum message. But even my GF walked in and saw abby and asked why they have a womens head on a man's body.
    I thought Abby was trans but her being buff made sense. She was obsessed with making Joel pay for what he did. A petite girl isnt likely going to be able to take on this man that slaughtered a slew of trained soldiers. She needed to be physically fit in order to stand a chance against him

  11. #71
    A Sinful Delight Synestra's Avatar
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    So I finally finished this last night, and it left me with quite a few mixed feelings...

    ...so I understand what the game was going for with its themes and as a cautionary tale about revenge. Ultimately, Ellie and Abby both lose everything in the quests for revenge. In terms of narrative, I think the one misstep was that it tries to retroactively make you care about Abby after she kills Joel, going do far as to have Ellie make some seriously cruel choices in the process when Ellie is one of the main characters I already care about. And Ellie's ending is depressing.

    Gameplay-wise, I loved it. I preferred Ellie over Abby, and not just because I'm biased because both were exciting, fun and challenging. But aside from the flamethrower, Ellie's weapons felt more fun to use than Abby's. The fight with the Rat King was intense though.

    Overall, I did enjoy playing this, and it didn't deserve nearly as much hate as it got. And hopefully they'll release some DLC or something where Ellie can find some kind of peace.

  12. #72
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synestra View Post
    So I finally finished this last night, and it left me with quite a few mixed feelings...

    ...so I understand what the game was going for with its themes and as a cautionary tale about revenge. Ultimately, Ellie and Abby both lose everything in the quests for revenge. In terms of narrative, I think the one misstep was that it tries to retroactively make you care about Abby after she kills Joel, going do far as to have Ellie make some seriously cruel choices in the process when Ellie is one of the main characters I already care about. And Ellie's ending is depressing.

    Gameplay-wise, I loved it. I preferred Ellie over Abby, and not just because I'm biased because both were exciting, fun and challenging. But aside from the flamethrower, Ellie's weapons felt more fun to use than Abby's. The fight with the Rat King was intense though.

    Overall, I did enjoy playing this, and it didn't deserve nearly as much hate as it got. And hopefully they'll release some DLC or something where Ellie can find some kind of peace.
    I dont think the intent was to make you care about Abby. It was more to shed light on who she is and provide context. Whether you like her or not is up to you but I dont think ND would view it as a failure on their parts if you dont.The point of this was to show that there are no true good or bad guys as everyone is different shades of gray. Ellie and Abby have the same arc but the difference is that we meet Abby at the end of her dark arc and more of her gameplay is about redemption from that. We start with Ellie at the beginning of her dark arc and her final act was the beginning of her redemption which we dont play as the game ends.

    I hated Abby and detested that we play as her for so long but I ended up liking her bc we see that she isnt truly a bad person. She did one bad thing but it didnt define her. She built up to that moment 4 years and once it happened, she felt empty. She's not perfect but also not that evil person that you'd think she was based off of her killing Joel (which I felt was justified, given the circumstances)

    Loved Ellie in the first game but grew to hate her here and it was the whole last part of the game that did that for me. She was awful for most of the game but she was fueled by her emotions which were understandable. I think the moment though that Abby spared her life for a second time that they were even. There was too much killing on both sides but both got a chance to start over. Ellie had a gf and kid and she chose revenge over them. It was completely unnecessary and there was nothing justifiable or admirable about her making that choice. Her hate for Abby was more important than the love that they had for her and that made her a sh-tty person. I was willing to give her another shot when she cut Abby down but when she threatened an innocent child's life to force a weak near death woman fight her while she wielded a knife, that ruined her for me. It was too late for me when she finally let go. She no longer became a viable character that I could root for.

    Her ending was depressing but she deserved it. She deserved to have Dina leave her and she deserved to have her fingers bit off. Those are the consequences of the decision she made which she did not have to. Im glad ND didnt give her a happy uplifting ending after that. It wouldnt have been fitting of this universe anyway

  13. #73
    A Sinful Delight Synestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I dont think the intent was to make you care about Abby. It was more to shed light on who she is and provide context. Whether you like her or not is up to you but I dont think ND would view it as a failure on their parts if you dont.The point of this was to show that there are no true good or bad guys as everyone is different shades of gray. Ellie and Abby have the same arc but the difference is that we meet Abby at the end of her dark arc and more of her gameplay is about redemption from that. We start with Ellie at the beginning of her dark arc and her final act was the beginning of her redemption which we dont play as the game ends.

    I hated Abby and detested that we play as her for so long but I ended up liking her bc we see that she isnt truly a bad person. She did one bad thing but it didnt define her. She built up to that moment 4 years and once it happened, she felt empty. She's not perfect but also not that evil person that you'd think she was based off of her killing Joel (which I felt was justified, given the circumstances)

    Loved Ellie in the first game but grew to hate her here and it was the whole last part of the game that did that for me. She was awful for most of the game but she was fueled by her emotions which were understandable. I think the moment though that Abby spared her life for a second time that they were even. There was too much killing on both sides but both got a chance to start over. Ellie had a gf and kid and she chose revenge over them. It was completely unnecessary and there was nothing justifiable or admirable about her making that choice. Her hate for Abby was more important than the love that they had for her and that made her a sh-tty person. I was willing to give her another shot when she cut Abby down but when she threatened an innocent child's life to force a weak near death woman fight her while she wielded a knife, that ruined her for me. It was too late for me when she finally let go. She no longer became a viable character that I could root for.

    Her ending was depressing but she deserved it. She deserved to have Dina leave her and she deserved to have her fingers bit off. Those are the consequences of the decision she made which she did not have to. Im glad ND didnt give her a happy uplifting ending after that. It wouldnt have been fitting of this universe anyway
    Oh I certainly agree that, within the context of the story, Ellie deserved the ending. Especially considering her response to Dina, after Dina had begged her to stay (and the irony is that Abby would've died had Ellie not went after her again, but Ellie wanted to kill her personally). But deserved or not, it was still sad to watch Ellie go down that path and lose everything. She was the most sympathetic character in the first game and she was literally willing to give her life to save the world. Then there was the reveal that she was ready to try and forgive Joel. To watch her go from all that to what she became was depressing. And I agree that her character essentially was destroyed when she threatened to kill an unconscious Lev to force Abby to fight her. I can't defend that within the context of the story, but I found it unnecessary on a writing level. I guess it's my own personal feelings due to my attachment to Ellie, but it felt like character assassination.

    I do think the game tries to make the player sympathize with Abby though, from her story with saving the kids and how she's treated by Mel, when Mel should've been angry with Owen. Then she spares Ellie twice, while Ellie threatens Lev in comparison.

    The ending is still fresh in my mind, and I can admit I'm mostly speaking from a subjective standpoint, because objectively Abby makes the better choices. I personally don't like some of the story decisions, but I do agree the ending fits the universe.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synestra View Post
    I guess it's my own personal feelings due to my attachment to Ellie, but it felt like character assassination.
    The reason I don't consider it that is because the game hits home that before Dina at the farm no one truly calls Ellie out. Tommy's wife didn't stop her from going, nor did anyone call her out for Nora or Mel. The closest before that was Jesse with regard to rescuing Tommy. But even then they swung right by afterward and it was water under the bridge. Jesse even treated Ellie as more the victim for being sad over killing Mel than Mel for being killed. If they had truly stood their ground or told her they won't follow where she's going or support what she's doing things might have been different. But Ellie basically got her way as far as the others the whole way. IIRC Dina didn't even call Ellie out on promising Tommy to go back out for revenge when they got back. So it made sense that Ellie had kept her "I am right, others are wrong mentality" right until the end.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 08-03-2020 at 03:33 PM.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    A couple months later, I'll say that The last of us Part II deserves credit for introducing new ideas and subject matter you can address in a game even if ultimately it didn't do a good job executing any of its ideas.

    I think ultimately, this game will join the shelf of MGS-V, Bioshock Infinite, and other sequels that had major pre-release hype and controversy and debate on launch but in time went on to lose its reputation and came to be seen as merely above-average.

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