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  1. #31
    Fantastic Member The Thunderbird's Avatar
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    If mutates and other powered people are classified as humans then I would say no, mutants are not superior to humanity. There's plenty of non mutant superbeings that are incredibly powerful such as Hulk, Dr. Strange, or Invisible Woman or super geniuses such as Doctor Doom, Reed Richards, or Black Panther.

    Evolution is not so much a race for supremacy as much as it is random change that is limited by the environment. People think that evolution is like a ladder when in reality it is more like a fluid that is poured into the cup that is natural selection.

  2. #32
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    Really, Evolution only has steps because we have the power of hindsight. We know the Great War happened in history class. How it unfolded can easily be seen in steps even though the people at the time saw it as random chance, blunders, and an odd string of coincidences.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    If mutates and other powered people are classified as humans then I would say no, mutants are not superior to humanity. There's plenty of non mutant superbeings that are incredibly powerful such as Hulk, Dr. Strange, or Invisible Woman or super geniuses such as Doctor Doom, Reed Richards, or Black Panther.

    Evolution is not so much a race for supremacy as much as it is random change that is limited by the environment. People think that evolution is like a ladder when in reality it is more like a fluid that is poured into the cup that is natural selection.
    This is the inherent hypocrisy of mutant supremacy, it only acknowledges super powers worthy if its expressed through the x-gene, any other method is just "human" or not on their radar. That's why Spider-man isn't allowed on Krakoa while Silver Samurai is. It's not about right or wrong, it's about what race you belong to.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is the inherent hypocrisy of mutant supremacy, it only acknowledges super powers worthy if its expressed through the x-gene, any other method is just "human" or not on their radar. That's why Spider-man isn't allowed on Krakoa while Silver Samurai is. It's not about right or wrong, it's about what race you belong to.
    Oh Soo Spider Man got denied entrance to KraKoa? lol Your headcanon seems to consist mostly if various super people/Flatscans in a Queue to get into KraKoa for some reason
    GrindrStone(D)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Oh Soo Spider Man got denied entrance to KraKoa? lol Your headcanon seems to consist mostly if various super people/Flatscans in a Queue to get into KraKoa for some reason
    The fact that he isn't visiting the island should clue you in something is terribly wrong with Krakoa. Spider-man is a long time ally and friend of the X-men! Don't gaslight, I've bought up my problems with the lack of Krkaoan tourism for anyone non-mutant before. And if he did go there he'd have to be guarded by a mutant 24/7 because he's not a mutant.

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The fact that he isn't visiting the island should clue you in something is terribly wrong with Krakoa. Spider-man is a long time ally and friend of the X-men! Don't gaslight, I've bought up my problems with the lack of Krkaoan tourism for anyone non-mutant before. And if he did go there he'd have to be guarded by a mutant 24/7 because he's not a mutant.
    I say if mutants can have an active ban on allowing baseline humans on Krakoa then it's only fair that baseline humans prevent mutants from their cities as well.
    Last edited by Micabe; 06-28-2020 at 10:16 PM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    I say if mutants can have an active ban on allowing baseline humans on Krakoa then it's only fair that baseline humans prevent mutants from their cities as well.
    Mutants don't want to be in their cities so it doesn't really matter. Lol
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Full ban on baseline humans is headcanon at this point. Shogo lives there, depowered mutants who are baseline humans live there.

    Not allowing all humans in while they're building a nation is a security measure. You don't want any Donald Pierce or X-Force#1 situation.

    Also, ignoring the context again. Why did they have to do this? Why did they have to build an island and protections and seek unity? Genosha, Decimation, Bastion, Inhuman Mists, Callahan and ORCHIS, just quoting a few. They tried to coexist in the same place but it ended up with blood and murder and exploded busses.

    And please with the terrifying humanity. They're giving them life changing drugs that are helping a great deal of people and starting humanitarian funds. What about human governments using Sentinels to find and kill mutants? That's not terrifying? What should mutants do, crucifie themselves so the poor humans will feel safe and it will save ORCHIS some time?

    And by what we know, mutants are indeed superior naturally. In Life VI they Librarian said that they're naturally supposed to inherit the planet, but using tech to create homo novissima made them fail and almost extinct. So in the end both human and mutant species lose in favor of either machines or novissima.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    I think Magneto is a reductionist. Take his logic to the logical extreme and you get Apocalypse. Spider-Man has powers that normal humans do not have, is he superior to normal humans? What about a criminal like Electro, is he superior to normal humans? You can apply the same logic to non-mutant superhumans.
    Lol I was just being facetious
    Idk what these posts really expect seeing as this same discussion happens in almost every thread

    The evolutionary basis of the x-men is ... shoddy scientifically speaking so the “superior” in homo superior is just meant to evoke “next step “ which isn’t how evolution technically works but hey it’s a comic book we can suspend our disbelief

    so I guess it’s a strawman argument about Krakoa ? And the point of Krakoa is not mutant superiority this has been discussed ad nauseum both in and out of the text.
    not really replying to you at this point just putting my actual thoughts out lol
    Last edited by houndsofluv; 06-28-2020 at 11:35 PM.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Evolution is less like waking up steps...more like flowing down a River
    GrindrStone(D)

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    No, mutants are not superior to humans.

    However, today's mutant society seems superior to, for example, the United States.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Full ban on baseline humans is headcanon at this point. Shogo lives there, depowered mutants who are baseline humans live there.
    Not officially, no, but look at who is let in.


    Not allowing all humans in while they're building a nation is a security measure. You don't want any Donald Pierce or X-Force#1 situation.
    They don't even try to get many people on side outside Krakoa, either. Recruiting cartels is more of a priority then friends like Spider-man! This is a draconian security measure and they're not a backwater country, they're a first world nation with incredible technology and numerous veteran soldiers and security forces. They're also a nation who has conquered death! If Moira was a human she wouldn't be allowed on the island. Every country has security measures, what they really shouldn't do is creating second class citizens of people or making sure tourism is a dead occupation.

    Also, ignoring the context again. Why did they have to do this? Why did they have to build an island and protections and seek unity? Genosha, Decimation, Bastion, Inhuman Mists, Callahan and ORCHIS, just quoting a few. They tried to coexist in the same place but it ended up with blood and murder and exploded busses.
    Why do you miss the context of how badly the mutant super-villains have messed up Xavier's dream? You keep on dismissing and ignoring the terrorist actions and murders of humans they've done as if the mutant race had never posed a threat to anybody when that's false. It's disingenuous to generalise the entire race over the actions of a few, because as of now it looks like Krakoa condones the actions of many, many super-villains as long as they're mutant. Kill a boatload of humans and we'll give authority over teams of X-men! We'll let you do missions without any restraints, despite the fact everyone knows you're a serial killer and mass murderer. Sell out the world to HYDRA and Norman osborn and we'll let you govern the nation! There has been plenty of blood on both sides, yet only one side counts as injustice when both sides are wrong.

    And please with the terrifying humanity. They're giving them life changing drugs that are helping a great deal of people and starting humanitarian funds. What about human governments using Sentinels to find and kill mutants? That's not terrifying? What should mutants do, crucifie themselves so the poor humans will feel safe and it will save ORCHIS some time?
    We'll give you life changing drugs but if you dare oppose us here we have someone we'd like to meet. He destroyed all of civilisation in the Bronze Age, the man sitting next to him you must know by now. He EMP'd the world twice, fought the United Nations and has been killing humans since the 60's, including the X-men. Do you not care about what these super-villains have been doing for years in the comics? Do you think the drugs will make everyone forget the lives they've taken and the destruction they've caused because of that? Do you think when Apocalypse kills people they don't matter since they're only human? For a start they can have ambassadors who aren't global security threats to humanity. Doing this only has one purpose, agree with us or die. That's not negotiation, that's intimidation. It's not like the humans showed up with a Sentinel fleet. Don't conflate every mutant with monsters like Apocalypse, he betrays and hurts them just as much as he does to humans.

    And by what we know, mutants are indeed superior naturally. In Life VI they Librarian said that they're naturally supposed to inherit the planet, but using tech to create homo novissima made them fail and almost extinct. So in the end both human and mutant species lose in favor of either machines or novissima.
    All supremacists think that's an excuse to dominate others. Except only key members of Krakao know about this, and they're definitely not looking for human allies to help stop that dark future. Reed has a great invention which would have helped them, instead they made sure he never would. How is that helping their cause?

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    We'll give you life changing drugs but if you dare oppose us here we have someone we'd like to meet. He destroyed all of civilisation in the Bronze Age, the man sitting next to him you must know by now. He EMP'd the world twice, fought the United Nations and has been killing humans since the 60's, including the X-men. Do you not care about what these super-villains have been doing for years in the comics? Do you think the drugs will make everyone forget the lives they've taken and the destruction they've caused because of that? Do you think when Apocalypse kills people they don't matter since they're only human? For a start they can have ambassadors who aren't global security threats to humanity. Doing this only has one purpose, agree with us or die. That's not negotiation, that's intimidation. It's not like the humans showed up with a Sentinel fleet. Don't conflate every mutant with monsters like Apocalypse, he betrays and hurts them just as much as he does to humans.

    ...
    Setting aside that this whole bit has been spread out over a bunch of threads no matter what those threads were actually about...


    The humans who put the Native Americans that they didn't completely wipe off of the face of the Earth onto reservations on their own land?

    Just to clarify, are those the humans we are discussing?

    The humans who kidnapped other humans, and brought them to a country where they were slaves?

    Are those the humans we are discussing?

    Before you start throwing "Intimidation..." around, ask yourself just who it is you are talking about.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Not officially, no, but look at who is let in.




    They don't even try to get many people on side outside Krakoa, either. Recruiting cartels is more of a priority then friends like Spider-man! This is a draconian security measure and they're not a backwater country, they're a first world nation with incredible technology and numerous veteran soldiers and security forces. They're also a nation who has conquered death! If Moira was a human she wouldn't be allowed on the island. Every country has security measures, what they really shouldn't do is creating second class citizens of people or making sure tourism is a dead occupation.



    Why do you miss the context of how badly the mutant super-villains have messed up Xavier's dream? You keep on dismissing and ignoring the terrorist actions and murders of humans they've done as if the mutant race had never posed a threat to anybody when that's false. It's disingenuous to generalise the entire race over the actions of a few, because as of now it looks like Krakoa condones the actions of many, many super-villains as long as they're mutant. Kill a boatload of humans and we'll give authority over teams of X-men! We'll let you do missions without any restraints, despite the fact everyone knows you're a serial killer and mass murderer. Sell out the world to HYDRA and Norman osborn and we'll let you govern the nation! There has been plenty of blood on both sides, yet only one side counts as injustice when both sides are wrong.



    We'll give you life changing drugs but if you dare oppose us here we have someone we'd like to meet. He destroyed all of civilisation in the Bronze Age, the man sitting next to him you must know by now. He EMP'd the world twice, fought the United Nations and has been killing humans since the 60's, including the X-men. Do you not care about what these super-villains have been doing for years in the comics? Do you think the drugs will make everyone forget the lives they've taken and the destruction they've caused because of that? Do you think when Apocalypse kills people they don't matter since they're only human? For a start they can have ambassadors who aren't global security threats to humanity. Doing this only has one purpose, agree with us or die. That's not negotiation, that's intimidation. It's not like the humans showed up with a Sentinel fleet. Don't conflate every mutant with monsters like Apocalypse, he betrays and hurts them just as much as he does to humans.



    All supremacists think that's an excuse to dominate others. Except only key members of Krakao know about this, and they're definitely not looking for human allies to help stop that dark future. Reed has a great invention which would have helped them, instead they made sure he never would. How is that helping their cause?
    Oh God I won't do this again. It amazes me how you can't see how bad humans treated them and how you expect the fictional minority group to bow down to the oppressors and act nice so the oppressors don't feel too bad about it.

    Just a suggestion to read Utopia and Secret Empire again because you've missed some essential plot points.

    Bye.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    The evolutionary basis of the x-men is ... shoddy scientifically speaking so the “superior” in homo superior is just meant to evoke “next step “ which isn’t how evolution technically works but hey it’s a comic book we can suspend our disbelief
    The "evolution" aspect of the X-gene mutants makes a bit of sense when one looks at it with the idea that said gene would eventualy spread across all of humanity and make "natural superpowers" the normality and being powerless the unusual. Hence being an "evolution" of humanity under the idea of constant progression and change.

    However what falls appart as idea in my opinion is the notion that the spread of the X-gene would result in "normal" humans to die out.
    On one hand we have aspects like the mendelian inheritance and other aspect of genetic spread, which would create a constant chance for a person to be born without an X-gene either as defect or as mutation ironicaly.

    Graydon Creed being a well known example of such a chance occuring.

    On the other hand we also have the super natural aspect of the X-gene, which comes from the X-men franchise's nature as a super hero comic with all it's fantastic elements. Which makes the X-gene suprisingly quite fragile.
    The X-gene can be supressed either via technology, magic or even natural occuring phenomena and while it can in some instances result in a mutants death, most of the time the end result is a perfectly functional "normal" human. Infact depowering seems to often cause a fantastic "reversal" to said form, even if their bodies were heavily changed by their super powers.
    Just like the X-gene's own random nature, what ever a reversal occurs or if a person dies from their powers no longer sustaining their form seems pretty random.
    We have examples like Beak who turned back into a normal human, despite his previously extremely changed form, while another mutant who turned into a dragon died because his body could no longer function without the gene.
    It seems entirely up to the writer on what ever depowering say a "tree person" mutant would result in them dying because of the X-gene sustaining their form is gone, or if all the plant stuff crumbles away and a normal human appears underneath it all.

    Either way it shows an inherent instability in the mutants as a species concept, because almost all mutants are still based on a human baseline form, to which the X-gene merely adds super powered modifications. Just like how depowering a Skrull or Kree would have them still sustain their respective natural shapes, just without their natural super powers.
    Most mutants still retain a humanoid form, mind or even body by nature regardless of how inhuman their super powers make them.
    Even the mutants of Gene Nation, who were said to be the result of generations of inter mutant reproduction, where allmost all humanoid in nature.

    Because of these aspects, it makes sense to me that normal humans would still be an occurence even if the entirety of humanity would have X-genes.

    The world of the manga My Hero Academia actualy shows us an example of such a world. With some people downright born without super powers or powers so weak they are practicaly identical to unpowered people.

    What also falls appart in my opinion is the notion that mutants would automatically be "superior" to normal humans, just because of the natural super powers. Since the effect of the X-gene can be entirely random.
    The powers can reach from truely "super", to merely beneficial, over "harmless" to the person who has them, right down into self destructive. Sometimes bordering between these traits.

    The same power source that can give someone the ability to controll the weather in all forms, can also make someone just shrink to half their size and that's it. In a mutant majority world, being born with an inactive or without X-gene could ironicaly be a beneficial mutation, if the super power involved is harmfull to one self or everyone around them.

    I guess the greatest harm Wanda did to mutants, beyond the direct suffering of losing their powers, was to show just how fragile their "superiority" is and to remind them that after all they are just humans behind their powers.

    Mutant "superiority" as an idea seems to often either just be an excuse to do harm people (villain excuse) or an attempt to help mutants with bad powers to soldier through having them (a more hero based excuse).

    The weakness of this randomness is also what i feel is a constant damocles sword hanging above the current Krakoa status quo. Especialy given that Xavier and Magneto have been shown the concept of the Chimeras. Perfect purpose created mutants without the weakness of random powers. A dangerous development that could push them too towards trying to achieve "post humanity" themselves. Especialy given that we (as far as i remember) have not shown what their endgame is.
    Last edited by Grunty; 06-29-2020 at 03:58 AM.

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