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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    In Marston's Saturna was a human slave trader. So we keep that with Oscira she had ties to ancient Egypt. So should we keep those? Also, God watch and Villiay inc. How would they fit in this group?
    Osira should be a really powerful meta from Ancient Egypt who got sealed away, woke up in the modern world and gather followers for a world domination bid.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I'm curious should she have any ties to the Banas?

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The new JLD Circe has a motivation that puts her squarely on collision course, with Wonder Woman. She was once a loving and heroic sorceress princess, who used her magic to protect her people, but, they betrayed her. When she killed the abusive king, whom they forced her to marry, to secure a peace treaty, ..they drove her to the ends of the Earth. While, she exists solely to punish, subjugate and destroy the cowardly and pathetic mortals, who condemned her...

    Wonder Woman fights for freedom for all mankind. She will not rest, until Circe's dreams of conquest are over.
    Please, for the love of Ghu, no.

    Your outline places the female victim in a situation where she becomes a crazed woman, and leaves untouched her abusers, who are here to be protected by Wonder Woman.

    It's a sad and disgusting mockery of everything Wonder Woman should stand for.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #79
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Please, for the love of Ghu, no.

    Your outline places the female victim in a situation where she becomes a crazed woman, and leaves untouched her abusers, who are here to be protected by Wonder Woman.

    It's a sad and disgusting mockery of everything Wonder Woman should stand for.
    Clearly, you haven't read the "Witching War" arc, in JLD...have you? Maybe, you did. Circe isn't crazed or desperate, in the least. She wants and deserves revenge, on all of us, because we're a race of fearful, ungrateful, doomed animals, ..in her eyes. She will never relent. She will never forgive us.

    Against Circe, Diana is fighting for hope that we can be more, than beasts.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-15-2020 at 09:55 AM.
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  5. #80
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I’d keep Saturna separate from Eviless and keep the Saturna that showed up in the Steve Trevor one-shot.

    When the Source Wall broke, I started developing Eviless and some other characters as being from beyond the wall and have tied it into a sci-fi and space opera story for Diana and friends.

    Osira for me plays off ancient alien motifs and I’ve developed parallel time’s past and current day storylines for her. She’s wickedly powerful and dangerous.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Clearly, you haven't read the "Witching War" arc, in JLD...have you? Maybe, you did. Circe isn't crazed or desperate, in the least. She wants and deserves revenge, on all of us, because we're a race of fearful, ungrateful, doomed animals, ..in her eyes. She will never relent. She will never forgive us.

    Against Circe, Diana is fighting for hope that we can be more, than beasts.
    Oh, I read it, and I think Tynion had some really interesting ideas, but the way he handled Hekate and Circe and their motivations really left a sour aftertaste. Having the victim of the original crime effectively commit suicide in order to save those who hurt her from herself?

    What DC created is similar to their issue with Poison Ivy. They wanted to give some good motivations to the villainess, but the motivations they gave them were such that they were the ones with justice (whatever) on their side. Which is an equation that superhero comics simply isn't equipped to handle.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #82
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Oh, I read it, and I think Tynion had some really interesting ideas, but the way he handled Hekate and Circe and their motivations really left a sour aftertaste. Having the victim of the original crime effectively commit suicide in order to save those who hurt her from herself?

    What DC created is similar to their issue with Poison Ivy. They wanted to give some good motivations to the villainess, but the motivations they gave them were such that they were the ones with justice (whatever) on their side. Which is an equation that superhero comics simply isn't equipped to handle.
    I think Circe should be peed-off at all of us. Five thousand years is a long time, though, but, we did drive her into the Great Beyond.

    I think Diana needs one supervillain to whom she can say, "Yeah...you got seriously messed over, back there, sister. I see that. Really, ..I do. Still can't let you barbecue the PLANET, though. Sorry. Can't do that, Circe."
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-15-2020 at 12:45 PM.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think Circe should be peed-off at all of us. Five thousand years is a long time, though, but, we did drive her into the Great Beyond.

    I think Diana needs one supervillain to whom she can say, "Yeah...you got seriously messed over, back there, sister. I see that. Really, ..I do. Still can't let you barbecue the PLANET, though. Sorry. Can't do that, Circe."
    Would be great if DC went that direction. But they don't.

    And if we take the original mythical Circe, she doesn't fit that role anyway, and that's part of why I dislike the way Circe is used in Wonder Woman. Poison Ivy would make a lot more sense in the situation you describe.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Oh, I read it, and I think Tynion had some really interesting ideas, but the way he handled Hekate and Circe and their motivations really left a sour aftertaste. Having the victim of the original crime effectively commit suicide in order to save those who hurt her from herself?

    What DC created is similar to their issue with Poison Ivy. They wanted to give some good motivations to the villainess, but the motivations they gave them were such that they were the ones with justice (whatever) on their side. Which is an equation that superhero comics simply isn't equipped to handle.
    It fits with the mythology behind Circe though. WHY does Circe live on Aeaea? Because she was exiled from the mainland. In the myths the entire reason she had a fondness for turning men to pigs was .... well exactly that. She used to be a normal-ish queen, until she got forced into exile.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    It fits with the mythology behind Circe though. WHY does Circe live on Aeaea? Because she was exiled from the mainland. In the myths the entire reason she had a fondness for turning men to pigs was .... well exactly that. She used to be a normal-ish queen, until she got forced into exile.
    Yeah, and the original Greek myths (and the Greeks) were misogynistic as hell. And even in the myths, Circe was more interested in living in peace on her island (and possibly following her whims) than in world domination or revenge. But if men arrived at her island and behaved like pigs, she turned them into pigs.

    But Wonder Woman is (should be) all about doing reinterpretations of Greek (and other classical) myths that are based on a feminist lens. And DC's Circe doesn't fit into that at all.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #86
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    Out of curiosity kjn, do you have any specific ideas on reinventing Circe?

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Out of curiosity kjn, do you have any specific ideas on reinventing Circe?
    Yeah, I wrote a bit about it back in the old Revisiting Olympos thread.

    I see several ways in which Circe can be used fruitfully in Wonder Woman that would make her more connected to Greek mythology and brining a more feminist lens towards it. One such route is to use her pretty much as Tynion used her in the beginning of The Witching Hour (i.e. before the big mouhahaha event involving her)—as a capricious and fickle loner. Dangerous when disturbed and someone who needed to be approached with care, but not bent on world domination. More deeply problematic friend than someone who has to be defeated.

    Rucka was rather close to the above in Rebirth, but he introduced a rather mercenary streak to her as well. I'm not too wedded to that element, but it can certainly be used.

    Another option is to introduce another evil sorceress as a villain for Wonder Woman, either adapting from myth or inventing a wholly new one. But I think it's important that her motivation wouldn't be the result of men being violent or abusive against her, because that would just bring back the same problem that DC's Circe has right now.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I’d keep Saturna separate from Eviless and keep the Saturna that showed up in the Steve Trevor one-shot.

    When the Source Wall broke, I started developing Eviless and some other characters as being from beyond the wall and have tied it into a sci-fi and space opera story for Diana and friends.
    I agree. Keep Saturna; she was designed as an updated Eviless.

    And just forget Eviless; the time has passed.

  14. #89
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Would be great if DC went that direction. But they don't.

    And if we take the original mythical Circe, she doesn't fit that role anyway, and that's part of why I dislike the way Circe is used in Wonder Woman. Poison Ivy would make a lot more sense in the situation you describe.
    I think I read too much into "The Witching War" arc in JLD, Kjn.

    I read some parts of it, again, this morning (like Circe's origin), and saw no mention of a treaty, between Colchis and her late husband's kingdom. It said only that she was forcibly wedded to the king of one of the wealthiest nations in the world, ..from which we might infer that Colchis was less, than that. Either way, it said Circe was, for her radiance and kindness, a celebrated princess, whose people married her off to an abusive king, that she killed and hung in a meat locker, ..after which, with much scorn, they drove her into the Underworld, where Circe granted her great sorcerous power.

    I'm not sure JLD even tells of her being a demigod daughter of Helios, but, instead, treats it, ..as a legend, ascribed her, by her subjects. What's clear is that she attacked and butchered her own people, the Colchistines, with her magic, avenging their betrayal of her. The rest is history.

    Just the same, I like the bones of the story! Circe starting her life, as a benevolent and powerful woman, betrayed by ungrateful people, under her protection, and that betrayal inspiring a hatred of humanity, ..for-EVER. Great story - unlike what went before it, a CLEAR story - that puts her squarely in the path of Diana's life mission, fueling an enmity worthy of an inexhaustible mound of movies, lunchboxes and underwear! It even picks up the Golden Age elements that see Circe banished from the world of men, which creates a great opportunity for writers to tell the story of 'Young Circe' ..and the many struggles that justify her lust for revenge.

    I agree that James Tynion was careful to acknowledge her misogynistic victimization, by Colchis, the righteous outrage that followed, without making her turn to villainy, an act of desperation. His Circe is a deliberate being, who deserves her revenge. Reminding us of that, I think, will be the challenge of the writers, who use her, and that is what will determine her worthiness for arch-enmity, with Wonder Woman.

    My revamping of Circe would be adding her pursuit and persecution, by the Olympians, after taking revenge on the ungrateful Colchistines, and showing her flight from them take her to the far ends of the universe, learning powerful cosmic secrets, ..before her final imprisonment upon Aea. I'd also make her turn from heroine to villainess, a little clearer and more dramatic. Otherwise, I think she's pretty close to a perfect enemy for Wonder Woman!
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-16-2020 at 11:09 AM.
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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    I agree. Keep Saturna; she was designed as an updated Eviless.

    And just forget Eviless; the time has passed.
    Nah, I have plans for Eviless that are fun and treacherous.

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