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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Why exactly does Superman live in Metropolis? I mean, it feels like gotham needs a superman than metropolis does.
    Yes, that's a huge problem in my opinion.
    Some time ago I thought that a good idea could be making Metropolis so incredibly advanced - almost an experiment in itself - and so socially unbalanced that every hero could easily get mad just by living in it. If they would make Metropolis the financial and technological center of the world - and a vision of what the entire world will be in some decades - Superman would have a very good reason to stay in it. He would preserve the focus of present AND future world. And just by making Metropolis work in the right way he would cause positive consequences all over the planet. But it would require a huge restyling and a radical reinvention - something like Zalem/Scrapyard in Battle Angel Alita. I think that they will just keep the "New York by day" version with some aesthetical deco elements.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  2. #77
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I have no problem in admitting this - that is, Jurgens was not as lucky as Tomasi. I'd just add that, more simply, Tomasi can write better than Jurgens (especially at this point of Jurgens' career) and Jurgens was involved in Rebirth mostly to reassure the fans that what they were about to get was more similar to 1990s Superman. I mean, his name is intrinsically tied to that period and many of the elements he used - Cyborg Superman, for example - are very '90s Jurgens-ian. I was not focusing on the reasons why his run is not as fondly remembered as Tomasi's (I have problems with THAT run as well and Jon Kent in particular). I was just remarking that whenever you think of Rebirth the main image you get is Jon Kent and Hamilton County rather than SuperLex and Godslayer.
    I think of both, personally, but that's because I'm a continuity nerd, and a fan of Jurgens's Superman in particular. But yeah, I see your point. I just remember Action being better liked around here than Superman by the time it was over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Yes, that's a huge problem in my opinion.
    Some time ago I thought that a good idea could be making Metropolis so incredibly advanced - almost an experiment in itself - and so socially unbalanced that every hero could easily get mad just by living in it. If they would make Metropolis the financial and technological center of the world - and a vision of what the entire world will be in some decades - Superman would have a very good reason to stay in it. He would preserve the focus of present AND future world. And just by making Metropolis work in the right way he would cause positive consequences all over the planet. But it would require a huge restyling and a radical reinvention - something like Zalem/Scrapyard in Battle Angel Alita. I think that they will just keep the "New York by day" version with some aesthetical deco elements.
    I love this idea.
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  3. #78
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You might not like it. But, superman is essentially the product of era's. Truth had a lot meddling and problems. But, these things ain't it. It's not about being a punching bag either. A champion is someone who gets back up. If you mean by boyscout absolutely naive and enforcer another authority's will, then it's trash. I don't care for him. Sure, superman can be powerful and part of the common man. If he lives like one. Does he? More you do know that was his original power. Skin strong enough to Withstand less than a bursting shell, faster than a locomotive, able to leap 1\8 of a mile, able to lift tremendous weights... Etc. Superman doesn't need to be sun god, either. Writer can chose which iteration they want.

    Does this look like a guy who understands people or is connected to them? This whole conversation sucks.

    It's portrayal. He absolutely does look like bruce wayne. Hence, people are distant. The guy himself is clueless and asks naive questions. I don't find naive good to be actual good.Nor do i find that kind of optimism true optimism. Superman isn't truly good in second case. He is Someone who is said to be good but can be easily twisted.Because his view of world is sunshine and daisies.

    They might be criminals. But superman didn't exactly go for the proper channel either. You could argue it's self defense. Still, this is superman.That makes him a criminal too.
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  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    I think of both, personally, but that's because I'm a continuity nerd, and a fan of Jurgens's Superman in particular. But yeah, I see your point. I just remember Action being better liked around here than Superman by the time it was over.



    I love this idea.
    I can only speak for myself but I thought Jurgens Action was strongest at the beginning with Doomsday -> SuperLex -> Revenge Squad, and weakest at the end with the finale arc in particular being dreadful. That comes down mainly to me intensely disliking how Jurgens writes Zod, where’s he’s basically the one note Terrance Stamp version screaming KNEEL. Oddly enough when Jurgens had Zod interact with the other villains on the Revenge Squad, I thought he wasn’t bad, but his Kal/Zod dynamic was terrible, all imo. I did enjoy his Action 1000 story though. Tomasi’s run is more uneven then people remember, he totally blew it on the Multiplicity arc for example. The Supermen of the Multiverse teaming up should’ve been a fantastic arc, but instead it was painfully generic and cliche with terrible art, and an antagonist so weak I can’t even remember his name. After Black Dawn Tomasi never recovered the highs of his debut arcs until his ending arc ironically. I really enjoyed the finale arc with Bizarro and I thought his issue 45 was fantastic.

    But I can’t really agree that the Rebirth teams were “just hitting their groove”, for me it felt like the opposite, both had run out of steam and were just treading water.

  5. #80
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I can only speak for myself but I thought Jurgens Action was strongest at the beginning with Doomsday -> SuperLex -> Revenge Squad, and weakest at the end with the finale arc in particular being dreadful. That comes down mainly to me intensely disliking how Jurgens writes Zod, where’s he’s basically the one note Terrance Stamp version screaming KNEEL. Oddly enough when Jurgens had Zod interact with the other villains on the Revenge Squad, I thought he wasn’t bad, but his Kal/Zod dynamic was terrible, all imo. I did enjoy his Action 1000 story though. Tomasi’s run is more uneven then people remember, he totally blew it on the Multiplicity arc for example. The Supermen of the Multiverse teaming up should’ve been a fantastic arc, but instead it was painfully generic and cliche with terrible art, and an antagonist so weak I can’t even remember his name. After Black Dawn Tomasi never recovered the highs of his debut arcs until his ending arc ironically. I really enjoyed the finale arc with Bizarro and I thought his issue 45 was fantastic.

    But I can’t really agree that the Rebirth teams were “just hitting their groove”, for me it felt like the opposite, both had run out of steam and were just treading water.
    I liked most of the Revenge Squad, honestly - but I agree that his Zod was one note, especially considering what we saw after. But while Tomasi was getting shakier (started out with just the endings, but as it went on Jon was the main thing he was getting right), Jurgens was just getting into the origin continuity changes and Superman being proactive about them.. not to mention finding the (then kidnapped) Jor-El, etc. Those longer yarns have always been Jurgens's specialty, so I was looking forward to seeing those start weaving (hence why I say "hitting it's stride").

    Having Cyborg Superman in the fortress was an interesting development, too, and I was hoping to see that dynamic play out.
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  6. #81
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    I think what they should do is tell a continuous story from his birth to his death,and by death I don't mean doomsday.Just show him born on Krypton, sent by his parents to Earth much like MoS and weave the story through teen titans(childhood years) Superman comic(adult years) and maybe JSA(as an older guy) just tell one story but the comics should be spaced out and yet be narrated almost concurrently so you see his lifespan play out in one take.Like Hickman's House of X idea childhood -year 15,adult hood -year 30 and old age(arbitrarily)-year 60.That would make lots of sense and be cohesive.If done for other characters who populate his life in a similar sequence as well-it is an effective way of telling one long plot but showcasing different adventures while shaping the character or at least narrating a characters memoirs in one continuity..if you want him married and a father ,have his child be in a separate title not the teen titans one.Simple
    Last edited by Rev9; 07-03-2020 at 02:52 PM.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Yes, that's a huge problem in my opinion.
    Some time ago I thought that a good idea could be making Metropolis so incredibly advanced - almost an experiment in itself - and so socially unbalanced that every hero could easily get mad just by living in it. If they would make Metropolis the financial and technological center of the world - and a vision of what the entire world will be in some decades - Superman would have a very good reason to stay in it. He would preserve the focus of present AND future world. And just by making Metropolis work in the right way he would cause positive consequences all over the planet. But it would require a huge restyling and a radical reinvention - something like Zalem/Scrapyard in Battle Angel Alita. I think that they will just keep the "New York by day" version with some aesthetical deco elements.
    To me combo of Metropolis being basically "New York" and DC pushing "Superman is the greatest" plot point is really annoying. How come that if Superman is such great and inspirational figure that his home city is just the same as our real word. Heck, you could argue that Metropolis is actually worse than many modern big cities. And City of tomorrow? Most of the time it feels dated even by the time it is published.

    And sure, I'm aware of the plot point that we basically have to do things on our own and Superman can't do it for us, but if he is inspirational figure then surely it would take an effect on the society, yet it is nowhere to be seen.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    And sure, I'm aware of the plot point that we basically have to do things on our own and Superman can't do it for us, but if he is inspirational figure then surely it would take an effect on the society, yet it is nowhere to be seen.
    The "should there be a Superman" thing is another issue I have with modern Superman - together with the "inspirational" part. What Maggin tried to suggest with his story was IMHO pretty interesting and important (especially for Superman series). But, as with the "inspirational" element, I think that as years went by, it became more of a narrative justification for Superman's limited role.

    I'll try to make myself clearer. If you check Superman's most important stories (in the 40s or the 50s, when he was at his peak in terms of popularity), he is successful for what he does rather than what he represents. Of course, he represents justice etc., but the very concept of justice as it is presented in-story is very generic and - what's more - EVERY superhero represents justice. Those stories made him popular because Superman is very good at doing incredible feats in very simplistic stories. If the stories weren't so naive - it's basically sci-fi for very young kids - the character wouldn't work. The infamous "Superdickery" humor is so funny because what Superman did in old stories cannot but appear dick-ish to modern, disenchanted eyes. I mean, Supergirl is forced to adopt a secret ID and can't live with Superman because it would jeopardize his Clark Kent persona? What a dick!

    It's not that he is NEVER inspirational. There are some moments in which what he does seems to inspire other people to do right things, but it is never the main feature of the character. Also, the context is what counts - the narrative is always a very simplistic, elementary one.

    Well, at one point, for a series of reasons which I won't list here, Superman couldn't indulge in incredible, out-of-the-world feats anymore. Comic books had simply changed. And - in order to compensate for Superman's diminished capabilities - they started stressing the "inspirational" role. According to what the writers tell us, Superman is inspirational. But again, IMHO this is mostly a convenient shortcut to force Superman to stay relevant. Basically, he is important, relevant and inspirational because the writers tell us that he is so. Not because we - the readers - feel really inspired and moved by his actions. It's very hard to share fictional people's enthusiasm for Superman when it is just the writer forcing the story into this direction by words, not because the story is really convincing.

    Does this type of narrative really work? I'd say that some writers were partially successful at making Superman look interesting and inspirational (especially Joe Kelly, NOT in the Elite story though), but it happened very rarely: it's the type of approach which shows its limits very quickly. IMHO there are things - like the "inspiration" thing - which many readers perceive as contrived and somehow fake even when they don't consciously realize it.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  9. #84
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, I don't necessarily see the inspiration figure and city-status as all that much of a big deal since it's no more different then it is for every Superhero. The Flash is basically The Superman of Central City but it's still pretty much a normal city with some really wacky science stuff that goes on over there.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yeah superheroes being “inspirational” tends to be something we’re told all of them posses. WW is supposedly inspirational. Captains America and Marvel are supposedly inspirational. Batman supposedly terrifies the Gotham underworld yet he never runs out of criminals who are out robbing banks for him to punch. Problem is writers falling back on buzzwords like “hope” and “inspirational” without putting in the work to make the reader feel those too. Smashes The Klan left me feeling very inspired so it’s not at all impossible to pull off.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I don't necessarily see the inspiration figure and city-status as all that much of a big deal since it's no more different then it is for every Superhero. The Flash is basically The Superman of Central City but it's still pretty much a normal city with some really wacky science stuff that goes on over there.
    I believe, the difference is superman just spouted to be inspirational. He isn't actually in writing for many readers. They go above and beyond to make it happen like in doomsday clock ending. They practically drill it in your head with things like S is for hope,kind of thing. They force these things.Many a times the character does come of fake with naive boyscout routine.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-05-2020 at 07:32 PM.

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