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  1. #76
    Fantastic Member Technopriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    At most those stories don't see a trade or in some cases a reissuing of a trade.

    Take Gerard Jones-he did a ton of Justice League stuff and the only John Stewart solo series. Along with Ultraverse Prime book.

    None of that is in trade.

    The down side to that is for some characters like Synch-if that represents the best or the most he has been used in a book. You now have a guy that is even a harder sell to use or try a solo.

    Also how many characters created by him and others are suddenly going to disappear? Because if they get used especially in a movie-he MIGHT get compensation or a credit for creation of.

    And even in a sadder case lets say you are collecting the work of someone who worked with those folks. You might be out of luck if it's out print or hard to find.
    With Ellis X-work is easier, he mostly wrote or was involved with satellite titles, and what little he did with the main titles is easily avoidable if need be. Benching Wisdom is easier too, he is not a popular character, or a character that has appeared in other media, has not been involved in any main storylines or events. Lobdell contributions are more difficult to ignore, he pretty much defined the X-men in the 90s, and his characters have appeared in other media and been part of the main teams and storylines. You can stop using Wisdom tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the X-men at all, it is more difficult to do so with Lobdell, and I am not sure you necessarily should. But, if he still gets some royalties from their use, or you would have to put his name if you use them or his storylines, I can see Marvel (Disney) having an issue with it.

  2. #77
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    At most those stories don't see a trade or in some cases a reissuing of a trade.

    Take Gerard Jones-he did a ton of Justice League stuff and the only John Stewart solo series. Along with Ultraverse Prime book.

    None of that is in trade.

    The down side to that is for some characters like Synch-if that represents the best or the most he has been used in a book. You now have a guy that is even a harder sell to use or try a solo.

    Also how many characters created by him and others are suddenly going to disappear? Because if they get used especially in a movie-he MIGHT get compensation or a credit for creation of.

    And even in a sadder case lets say you are collecting the work of someone who worked with those folks. You might be out of luck if it's out print or hard to find.
    i don't have many problems when using the characters they created on comics, of course that Wisdom could be let it go for reasons.

    movie is really a problem, because compesation is good at least on DC comics. I remember jai Nitz that was outed as abuser was on suicide squad sets and got some money because he created used on the movie.

    Work with them doesn't always meant endorsing them.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Soon it will be enough to go after someone for what they didn’t say. Just their “privilege” alone will be enough if they’re not using it to toe the line and promote the cause du jour.

    Our outrage is being cultivated and fed back to us. We’re all being played.
    Ironic....
    GrindrStone(D)

  4. #79
    Fantastic Member PsychicScion's Avatar
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    he has a long history of "demoting" strong female characters - he is the one who killed Rachel Summers, tried to kill Storm for many years & killed Dazzler only for it to be retconned.

    There were long time remarks at conventions regarding his inappropriate interactions with female fans.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technopriest View Post
    He has done some amazing work outside of the X-titles, I just don't find his X-work particularly good, and I find his Excalibur run incredibly overrated, like it gets more props for the kind of work Ellis did afterwards than its own merits. Same with Wisdom as a character, I find that he gots more props for being an Ellis creation than an actually good or interesting character himself. He always read as Constantine light.
    He also did X-Force and Wolverine. I haven't read his Excalibur but they were good. He took Stormwatch and Authority to the next level and he didn't create those already established characters but they are considered one of the best comics of all time. His Thunderbolts and Extremis was also good. I have heard his Hellblazer was also cool.

    Honestly, I wasn't really that surprised because I have seen very few great creators who are good people (who said/did wrong things). Not in his caliber at the very least including Claremont or Bryne.
    Last edited by Vishop; 06-30-2020 at 06:26 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Yeah from I been reading in X-Men forums, Lobdells x-men run been hit or miss, like hits like 303 with Illyana sucumbing to the Legacy virus and the emotions the character go through and then next issue, 304, he completely character assassinated Magneto making him full blown villain that would crash the funeral of a girl he bonded during his time as headmaster(going back to Erik and Illyana hugging scene in Claremont later stages of his NM run). yeah and to be honest, im more attached to Joe Madureira art than his writing. it sucks that Joe owe majority of his Marvel work to him I guess. if i go on decided to clean my long boxes and take off the Lobdell run, ill think ill keep the Joe Mad issues, the very least even the ones where he only did cover art.

  7. #82
    Fantastic Member Technopriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    He also did X-Force and Wolverine. I haven't read his Excalibur but they were good. He took Stormwatch and Authority to the next level and he didn't create those already established characters but they are considered one of the best comics of all time. His Thunderbolts and Extremis was also good. I have heard his Hellblazer was also cool.

    Honestly, I wasn't really that surprised because I have seen very few great creators who are good people (who said/did wrong things). Not in his caliber at the very least including Claremont or Bryne.
    X-Force he was a curator for, he wrote the first arc with Edginton and pretty much left afterwards. I did not read his Wolverine so I cannot comment on that, but I did read his Excalibur and Astonishing runs and was not impressed, I didn't consider them good. His runs on Stormwatch and the Aurhority were really good (he actually created the characters in the Authority), but he pretty much had carte blanche and I think he is an author that works better either with his own characters or with characters that he can mold to his liking, something that works with characters with a short publishing life instead of characters with decades of established characterization. Sorry, but I was never a fan of his X-work and I never will, and knowing what I do now of his behavior with younger females makes it really easy to not collect his work again.
    Last edited by Technopriest; 06-30-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member Technopriest's Avatar
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    I just realized that Warren worked with Brian Wood on Generation X, a series started by Scott Lobdell. It is really a who's who of sexual predators involved there. I guess Marvel could always just collect Larry Hama and Jay Faerber runs on the title and call it a day.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technopriest View Post
    X-Force he was a curator for, he wrote the first arc with Edginton and pretty much left afterwards. I did not read his Wolverine so I cannot comment on that, but I did read his Excalibur and Astonishing runs and was not impressed, I didn't consider them good. His run on Stormwatcj were really good (he actually created the characters in the Authority), but he pretty much had Blanche carte and I think he is an author that works better either with his own characters or with characters that he can mold to his liking, something that works with characters with a short publishing life instead of characters with decades of established characterization. Sorry, but I was never a fan of his X-work and I never will, and knowing what I do now of his behavior with younger females makes it really easy to not collect his work again.
    Wasn't saying his x-books are usually good but I have liked his X-Force and Wolverine. Now I think Ellis's social commentary with all of its own characters is true to its characters than even to the likes of Claremont who created so many iconic x-characters but gets away with his discriminatory narrative more often.
    Keep Your Society. Take It With You To The Grave.

  10. #85
    Fantastic Member Technopriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    Wasn't saying his x-books are usually good but I have liked his X-Force and Wolverine. Now I think Ellis's social commentary with all of its own characters is true to its characters than even to the likes of Claremont who created so many iconic x-characters but gets away with his discriminatory narrative more often.
    Yes, I think he is better dealing with his own characters, I just don't like when he gets a hold of long established ones, as he tends to have the characters fit his narrative instead of the narrative serving the characters. And Excalibur was just creepy, and it gets even creepier now knowing the stuff he was pulling behind the scenes.
    Last edited by Technopriest; 07-08-2020 at 07:27 PM.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technopriest View Post
    Yes, I think he is better dealing with his own characters, i just don't like when he gets a hold of long established ones, as he tends to have the characters fit his narrative instead of the narrative serving the characters. And Excalibur was just creepy, and it gets even creepier now knowing the stuff he was pulling behind the scenes.
    It does and looking back at Wisdom had similar character tropes with respect to what he wrote outside x-books . But believe it or not, compared to what Ellis did, Claremont has also written some pretty obnoxious anti-feminist narratives with his characters back in 80s and it also fits the narrative occasionally.

    PS: I don't really think think Ellis's Excalibur was overrated compared to what he wrote in Vertigo among general consensus.
    Last edited by Vishop; 06-30-2020 at 11:36 PM.
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  12. #87
    Fantastic Member Technopriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    It does and looking back at Wisdom had similar character tropes with respect to what he wrote outside x-books . But believe it or not, compared to what Ellis did, Claremont has also written some pretty obnoxious anti-feminist narratives with his characters back in 80s and it also fits the narrative occasionally.

    PS: I don't really think think Ellis's Excalibur was overrated compared to what he wrote in Vertigo among general consensus.
    I feel that is another can of worms, and if Claremont or Byrne are ever accused to be predators we can discussed their works in that vein. What the OP was asking is, if we can enjoy the work produced by those authors that have been accused still after knowing what we know of their behavior, if we can separate the art from the creator. That is going to be different from fan to fan. Is easier for me as I have never particularly enjoyed either of those guys output in the X-titles (with rare exceptions for Lobdell like Generation X or The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix).
    To me Excalibur is a bigger offender because reading the relationship between Kitty and Wisdom is just way creepier now (and it was creepy to begin with, knowing that Wisdom was a self insert for Ellis and that he aged Kitty so he could consummate that relationship). That is the part where I can’t separate the author and his work because is clear that his darker instincts were at play there. And to top it all I don’t find his Excalibur run to be good to be worth that effort, like maybe I would for his other work. To me, that is Gerard Jones and Prime territory, where the new layer added after we know what was going on in their personal lives makes it impossible for me to separate the work from them.
    Last edited by Technopriest; 07-01-2020 at 12:27 AM.

  13. #88

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    I agree. It was a genuine offense to the lore of the established characters. Ellis wanted to establish his own way of writing back then. Thing is that pretty much the majority of comic book creators had a similar perspective about these things back during those times.
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  14. #89
    Mighty Member psylurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    so why WB isn't working with Whedon anymore? of course that TV and Movies also have the problem of protecting abusers just as comics.

    getting sex with teenagers is wrong, grooming is wrong. of course different companies will have different ways of dealing with it, BUUUUT accountability should never be frowned upon

    some people murder and get away with it, so that means that nobody can be jailed for murder? of course not.
    I'm all for accountability, there isn't nearly enough going around. In fact, I'm saying let's have MORE of it. But people on the Internet only care about certain causes - if you're a victim but don't fit into the particular scenario that's trending these days, screw you, nobody is calling for your abuser to be cancelled from planet Earth and for their comics to be torn to shreds.

  15. #90
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I will paraphrase John Stuart Mill...
    “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men and women should look on and do and say nothing.”
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

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