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  1. #46
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    Inspiration being an aspiration vs being a convenient side effect is one I guess. Or at least it's one I've seen more recently.
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  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Tried to compile all the most interesting "Sticking Points," and cut out the commentary to a limited extent. Some of the emphases are mine, some are original to the posters, because I thought they should all be in bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Discussions among Superman fans tend to come down to disagreements over a handful of key issues.

    Political vs Apolitical


    His relationship with Lois Lane



    The portrayal of Clark Kent


    Superboy vs Superman


    Meeting Lex in Smallville or Metropolis


    Ma & Pa Kent's survival


    The destruction of Krypton and who survived


    Anything else I missed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You missed the most petty of all concerns: the trunks.

    Killing is likely another one. Many fans believe he'll do it if absolutely necessary and others see him as hardline as Batman on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Power level

    Legion Roots

    Intelligence
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Relatability

    Is Superman's life and powers something he embraces? Or a burden he has to bear?
    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I would say your list is pretty good but there are other, smaller, sticking points. I would replace Superboy with his origin in general. This would include things like what age he got his powers, who all knew his secret in Smallville, what Krypton looked like, etc.
    v v And then I just thought Sacred Knight here made a pretty good point about the utility of parallel universes. v v

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Potential differences in all the particular aspects is why you can have two versions of Kal-El whom at face value seem so similar as to there not being worth having two versions to begin with. But when you dig deeper it creates significant differences in nuance. Its the basis of my argument of why DC should go back to an Earth One and Two like set up and give us a younger Kal-El at least heavily inspired by what the New 52 did. Those subtle nuances all mixed together can create a meaningfully different character although it doesn't appear so much on the face of it.
    Unfortunately, DC just doesn't seem to have much interest in keeping two ongoing but distinct Supermen going concurrently. The start of Rebirth would've been the time to launch into that, but they went with "Final Days" instead.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    His power level honestly can fluctuate more wildly than the supporting cast and characterization choices to me; I honestly think the power level’s reception is far more dependent on how well the writer handles the conflict than on consistency.

    My problem with, say, Superman The Movie is that the conflict with the nukes, the real estate scheme, and Lois’s death, is that Superman turning back time is a lame Deus Ex Machina cheat at the end of that story.

    In comparison, I actually don’t mind the ending of All Star Superman in regards to it resolving the main conflict - *there* my issues lie with finding the personality of Superman less interesting (I’m a guy who think he should be Clark Kent at his core, but Clark Kent is still the guy who would comfort the young woman on the ledge.)

    I’d agree with the OP’s ideas about where most of the real debates are, because most of those differences create very different “adaptations” that can!t exactly be blended together to everyone’s satisfaction - how much sincerity and substance there is to Clark Kent, for instance, determines the entire personality of the character, and how many Kryptonans survived has massive impact on the story.

    I would *also* agree that Lois and Clark’s relationship is actually one of the more adaptable and bendable elements - to this day, I’d argue the crowning issue of the New 52 reboot was not having young single-and-ready-to-mingle Clark and Lois doing their thing, while having the “modern” Superman be married and partnered with her in investigations.
    I think the major problem with this is that a lot of these relationships and opinions evolved over time. Take "Lois knowing Superman's secret".

    While fans in the early stages might've enjoyed secret identity, they treat it as a tired trope nowadays even if they don't enjoy Lois and Clark being together.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    This is exactly why we will never agree.

    Some want to read The Adventures of a new Greek God in red underpants...and I have zero interest in these stories.
    But a modern interpretation of Hercules (and Samson but Herc is better) is EXACTLY what he was designed/conceived as being based on primary and secondary historical artifacts.

    The only change from them to now is the reader more widespread understanding of physical science and the modern reduced tolerance for the whimsical.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    Jason Aaron’s Thor has been amazing and just like Hickmans FF, All Star Superman is baked in the DNA. Superman is a polymath! I think that is a sticking point. Plus feats, and the type of feat, that seems inconsistent. To me Superman is like Prince he may not be the best at any of the 27 instruments he plays, but on any night he can outplay the best fill in the blank instrumentalists on their own instrument. That’s why to me, he can out swim Aquaman.
    Well yeah because Superman very early on was defined as a true superspeedster and a peer of Hercules in physical strength whereas Aquaman's concept/design did not have anything like that.

    Where Aquaman does outdo Superman by his own design as opposed to Johns-level can ranking is marine based telepathy and knowledge of and influence over the Deep.

  6. #51
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Tried to compile all the most interesting "Sticking Points," and cut out the commentary to a limited extent. Some of the emphases are mine, some are original to the posters, because I thought they should all be in bold.
    So you didn't find either of my points interesting?
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

    Credit for avatar goes to zclark

  7. #52
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    Why does superman always seem reckless in asserting his powers over oppnents that can counter his powers or smart enough to out wit him in combat

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    Why does superman always seem reckless in asserting his powers over oppnents that can counter his powers or smart enough to out wit him in combat
    It's "Worf Barrage". If they don't showcase his powers being ineffective, how are we supposed to know that they're a threat?

    In-universe, his powers work like 90% of the time. Why wouldn't he try to end it quickly?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It's "Worf Barrage". If they don't showcase his powers being ineffective, how are we supposed to know that they're a threat?

    In-universe, his powers work like 90% of the time. Why wouldn't he try to end it quickly?
    That doesnt make it okay for his opponent to have the cards in his favor because superman is basically ooc and doesnt use his own smarts and capabilites. I mean people like batman or any magic user throws supes under the bus because how dumb and straight forward he is with his ignorance of knowing nothing how to fight or out think his opposition because hes written as a over reliant spoiled scrub with his powers and nigh invincibility.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    That doesnt make it okay for his opponent to have the cards in his favor because superman is basically ooc and doesnt use his own smarts and capabilites. I mean people like batman or any magic user throws supes under the bus because how dumb and straight forward he is with his ignorance of knowing nothing how to fight or out think his opposition because hes written as a over reliant spoiled scrub with his powers and nigh invincibility.
    I think part of that is a bad side-effect of being a lynchpin of a shared universe. You could have a creative team that crafted stories where Superman is competent and interesting for the next decade, but if that team (or an editor) isn't handling Superman's appearances in Justice League or guest appearances then odds are Superman continues to be perceived as powerful but unskilled.

  11. #56
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    One thing continues to puzzle me is whether Kal-El being superhuman under a yellow sun was something everyone knew about on Krypton of was it a byproduct of Jor-El and Lara-El research into a suitable world. Another stream of stories seemed to suggest that Kal's benefits were unique to him as a product of the El's genetic augmentation of their baby boy. It seems like the continuity was all over the place over the years with Post Crisis onward leaning heavily into the All Kryptonians Are Super Everybody Knows.

    But that bewildered me because why wouldn't they bail and go to a yellow sun system rather than be all 'sploded.

    The original design seemed silent on the matter with these details being added well after the characters debut. Anyone have any thoughts , clarifications, or preferences?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    One thing continues to puzzle me is whether Kal-El being superhuman under a yellow sun was something everyone knew about on Krypton of was it a byproduct of Jor-El and Lara-El research into a suitable world. Another stream of stories seemed to suggest that Kal's benefits were unique to him as a product of the El's genetic augmentation of their baby boy. It seems like the continuity was all over the place over the years with Post Crisis onward leaning heavily into the All Kryptonians Are Super Everybody Knows.

    But that bewildered me because why wouldn't they bail and go to a yellow sun system rather than be all 'sploded.

    The original design seemed silent on the matter with these details being added well after the characters debut. Anyone have any thoughts , clarifications, or preferences?
    In the Golden Age Krypton was "home to a race of supermen" who were simply more evolved than us, This was back when Superman could still be stunned by a strong enough electrical shock or explosion. Whether they were on Krypton or Earth they had the same "powers". And if you had blown up Earth Superman would have died just like all those people on Krypton.

    In the Silver/Bronze Age you had a weird situation where it was implied space travel was almost non-existent ... except for the dozens of rockets Superman encountered with survivors and artifacts. The idea they'd gain powers on other planets seemed to be known but not something anyone really thought about. And top scientists largely thought Jor-El was nuts for thinking Krypton could be destroyed. It was never clear if his theory was made public. And most of Jor-El's scientific believers were in Kandor working on escape vessels when the city was removed by Brainiac.

    Post-Crisis we got a Krypton that in addition to not believing Kor-El was also later stated to be bonded to Krypton. If you left the planet you died due to some genetic tinkering done to keep Kryptonians united as a single culture on one planet. Jor-El had to reverse that genetic "flaw" in Superman before he launched the ship. That might be what you read implying that Superman was augmented, but it had nothing to do with producing his powers.

    My personal preference would be to simply isolate Krypton.
    Look at it this way- if we didn't have places like the Moon or Mars we'd have to travel 4 light years to reach another planet. Now imagine what it would take for us to develop space flight if the closest place to go to was that far away. We might send probes, but manned flights?
    And I'm a Silver-ager who likes the old "high gravity plus solar rays" explanation for the powers. So in addition to having nowhere nearby to go in space the high gravity makes getting things into space a lot harder. You might need rockets twice as powerful as we use to launch parts of the international space station just to put a baseball in Krypton's orbit.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    In the Golden Age Krypton was "home to a race of supermen" who were simply more evolved than us, This was back when Superman could still be stunned by a strong enough electrical shock or explosion. Whether they were on Krypton or Earth they had the same "powers". And if you had blown up Earth Superman would have died just like all those people on Krypton.

    In the Silver/Bronze Age you had a weird situation where it was implied space travel was almost non-existent ... except for the dozens of rockets Superman encountered with survivors and artifacts. The idea they'd gain powers on other planets seemed to be known but not something anyone really thought about. And top scientists largely thought Jor-El was nuts for thinking Krypton could be destroyed. It was never clear if his theory was made public. And most of Jor-El's scientific believers were in Kandor working on escape vessels when the city was removed by Brainiac.

    Post-Crisis we got a Krypton that in addition to not believing Kor-El was also later stated to be bonded to Krypton. If you left the planet you died due to some genetic tinkering done to keep Kryptonians united as a single culture on one planet. Jor-El had to reverse that genetic "flaw" in Superman before he launched the ship. That might be what you read implying that Superman was augmented, but it had nothing to do with producing his powers.

    My personal preference would be to simply isolate Krypton.
    Look at it this way- if we didn't have places like the Moon or Mars we'd have to travel 4 light years to reach another planet. Now imagine what it would take for us to develop space flight if the closest place to go to was that far away. We might send probes, but manned flights?
    And I'm a Silver-ager who likes the old "high gravity plus solar rays" explanation for the powers. So in addition to having nowhere nearby to go in space the high gravity makes getting things into space a lot harder. You might need rockets twice as powerful as we use to launch parts of the international space station just to put a baseball in Krypton's orbit.
    Thanks, JC! I will head to Google and then eBay to see abound collecting some of these stories again.

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