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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Default Have Kryptonians ever really been extinct?

    Even w. Krypton gone, there have always seemed to be a LOT of survivors.
    Some questions for you guys...:

    When did Superman’s “last son of Krypton” moniker stop being applicable?

    How many Kryptonians are there in the universe?

    Where are they?

    Has a large Kryptonian presence ever been shown in the LoSH books?

  2. #2
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    1: the last son of krypton, long ago I stopped meaning the last kryptonian, now he is the last born in krypton 2: krypton exists in a constant extonation, because one year she is superman, the next she is also supergirl, a few years later a couple more appear out of nowhere, the next there is a reboot, and the teacher repeats itself over and over again.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    1: the last son of krypton, long ago I stopped meaning the last kryptonian, now he is the last born in krypton
    That’s a neat way to look at it.

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    However there is no Last Daughter of Krypton in that same sense then; whoever she was, she would have died with Krypton. The two Karas are merely among the last surviving females from Krypton.

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    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    It only really ever applied from Byrne up to Loeb bringing back Kara back as Supergirl. Pre-Crisis there were always some survivors but most of them were evil and the only other survivor was Kara. Right now the last Kryptonians are Kal, Kara, Zod, Lor, and Faora. There’s hybrids like Jon and clones like Kon and Bizarro though.

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    I believe the first appearance of any other Kryptonians was in SUPERMAN 65 (July-August 1950), "The Three Supermen from Krypton." So that would mean Superman was the lone survivor from whenever Siegel and Shuster created him--in 1934?--until 1950. And then as Vordan said, Superman was the only survivor from Byrne's MAN OF STEEL No. 1, in 1986, until the first appearance of the new Supergirl in SUPERMAN/BATMAN No. 8 (May 2004). Those are two significant chunks of time--nothing to super-sneeze at--for Clark as the Last Son of Krypton.
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  7. #7
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    Technically because every depiction of Kal's son with Lois shows him having Kryptonian powers it means Kryptonians will never be extinct as long as Clark has children and grandchildren.

  8. #8
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    The only time Kryptonians have ever been actually extinct in the universe was right after Doomsday killed Superman and that only lasted for a few months.

    The Last Son of Krypton thing is symbolic because it's what Superman believed himself to be, but it almost never actually meant he was the only surviving Kryptonian except for the handful of years in between end of the Byrne run and when continuity hiccuped and the Birthright Krypton replaced Byrne's sterile Krypton. Even during Bryne's supposedly "no surviving Kryptonians" run, you still had the Pocket Universe Superboy and the Phantom Zone criminals. Once they were all dead, that was the only period in which Superman was actually the only survivor left, although you'd still have to ignore the Superman of Earth-2 and Superboy-Prime, who were still alive but living behind the Source Wall.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    However there is no Last Daughter of Krypton in that same sense then; whoever she was, she would have died with Krypton. The two Karas are merely among the last surviving females from Krypton.
    ^^^thats...pretty sad.

    Thanks Vordan, Jim Kelly, Rev9, and Bored at 3:00AM. That’s all some really great information.

    Follow up if anyone cares to field it.
    How’s Kandor factor into all this?

  10. #10
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Well, "Last Son of Krypton" applies in that he's the last male Kryptonian left who isn't generally locked up in the Phantom Zone (unless we count Jon, but he's a hybrid).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The only time Kryptonians have ever been actually extinct in the universe was right after Doomsday killed Superman and that only lasted for a few months.

    The Last Son of Krypton thing is symbolic because it's what Superman believed himself to be, but it almost never actually meant he was the only surviving Kryptonian except for the handful of years in between end of the Byrne run and when continuity hiccuped and the Birthright Krypton replaced Byrne's sterile Krypton. Even during Bryne's supposedly "no surviving Kryptonians" run, you still had the Pocket Universe Superboy and the Phantom Zone criminals. Once they were all dead, that was the only period in which Superman was actually the only survivor left, although you'd still have to ignore the Superman of Earth-2 and Superboy-Prime, who were still alive but living behind the Source Wall.
    That "handful of years in between end of the Byrne run and when continuity hiccuped and the Birthright Krypton replaced Byrne's sterile Krypton" was between 1988 and 2003. Some kids had all their schooling and got married in that time.

    It really depends on what we're talking about. To me the question is--Within a continuity, in a specific universe, was Superman the only survivor? If we allow in every other universe and Elseworld, then there are many scenarios where another Krypton survived alongside mainstream Superman's Krypton.

    I feel that the Pocket Universe shouldn't count because it's a different universe created by the Time Trapper--anything in that reality is not part of the post-Crisis D.C. Universe reality. What's more, it seems to me that, after Byrne left, Mike Carlin doubled down on Superman being the only Kryptonian. The P.U. was manufactured by Byrne and Levitz to save some Legion continuity. But even that solution wasn't good enough for Carlin and he demanded changes to the Legion timeline so any trace of Kryptonians was removed.

    What's weird is they still kept Matrix even though the story that made her exist was removed from Legion continuity. By rights Matrix should not have ever been in the mainstream universe or at least her back story should have been changed. But then again Supergirl went down so many confusing roads after that, it's hard to track.

    As far as Birthright goes that was never part of official continuity, either. It was going to be but then they lost their nerve. However, it doesn't matter a whole lot for this question, since the new Kara Zor-El was introduced right after that and at that point it becomes possible for more Kryptonians to exist.

    During the Carlin years, they made a big deal about Superman and Lois Lane not being able to produce children naturally--so the extinction of all Kryptonians was likely. With a Supergirl, if Superman had wanted to produce pure bred Kryptonians, he could have accomplished that with his cousin.

    You could argue that the pre-Crisis Supergirl wasn't born on Krypton and therefore wasn't really the Last Daughter of Krypton--whereas the Jeph Loeb re-invented origin does have her born on Krypton. Likewise, with the classic bottle city of Kandor--anyone born in the bottle isn't born on Krypton. Van-Zee being the same age as his identical cousin, would therefore not be a Last Son of Krypton.

    If someone isn't born on a planet can they still claim to be from that planet? In Byrne's original idea, Lara was supposed to come to Earth and give birth to Kal-El, so he would be born on Earth. But even in Byrne's MAN OF STEEL origin, Kal-El is just an embryo, so you could say he was born on Earth and not on Krypton.
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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    ^^^thats...pretty sad.

    Thanks Vordan, Jim Kelly, Rev9, and Bored at 3:00AM. That’s all some really great information.

    Follow up if anyone cares to field it.
    How’s Kandor factor into all this?
    Wasn’t Kryptonian during the Byrne years, and we didn’t get a “proper” Kryptonian Kandor until Johns Brainiac arc. The Kandorians are a point of contention because while they do subvert his status as the Last Survivor, others like him having a piece of Krypton he can explore. However Kandor died right before the Flashpoint reboot in New Krypton, and it’s currently dead again due to Bendis MoS.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Hell Kandor in any form in regards to the bottle concept didn't exist during the Byrne years. Its revamped form didn't show up until circa midway into triangle era, so about mid-90s. It was gone outright for about a decade. A decent chunk of time considering how classic a piece of lore it is.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-03-2020 at 12:10 PM.
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  14. #14
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    That "handful of years in between end of the Byrne run and when continuity hiccuped and the Birthright Krypton replaced Byrne's sterile Krypton" was between 1988 and 2003. Some kids had all their schooling and got married in that time.

    It really depends on what we're talking about. To me the question is--Within a continuity, in a specific universe, was Superman the only survivor? If we allow in every other universe and Elseworld, then there are many scenarios where another Krypton survived alongside mainstream Superman's Krypton.

    I feel that the Pocket Universe shouldn't count because it's a different universe created by the Time Trapper--anything in that reality is not part of the post-Crisis D.C. Universe reality. What's more, it seems to me that, after Byrne left, Mike Carlin doubled down on Superman being the only Kryptonian. The P.U. was manufactured by Byrne and Levitz to save some Legion continuity. But even that solution wasn't good enough for Carlin and he demanded changes to the Legion timeline so any trace of Kryptonians was removed.

    What's weird is they still kept Matrix even though the story that made her exist was removed from Legion continuity. By rights Matrix should not have ever been in the mainstream universe or at least her back story should have been changed. But then again Supergirl went down so many confusing roads after that, it's hard to track.

    As far as Birthright goes that was never part of official continuity, either. It was going to be but then they lost their nerve. However, it doesn't matter a whole lot for this question, since the new Kara Zor-El was introduced right after that and at that point it becomes possible for more Kryptonians to exist.

    During the Carlin years, they made a big deal about Superman and Lois Lane not being able to produce children naturally--so the extinction of all Kryptonians was likely. With a Supergirl, if Superman had wanted to produce pure bred Kryptonians, he could have accomplished that with his cousin.

    You could argue that the pre-Crisis Supergirl wasn't born on Krypton and therefore wasn't really the Last Daughter of Krypton--whereas the Jeph Loeb re-invented origin does have her born on Krypton. Likewise, with the classic bottle city of Kandor--anyone born in the bottle isn't born on Krypton. Van-Zee being the same age as his identical cousin, would therefore not be a Last Son of Krypton.

    If someone isn't born on a planet can they still claim to be from that planet? In Byrne's original idea, Lara was supposed to come to Earth and give birth to Kal-El, so he would be born on Earth. But even in Byrne's MAN OF STEEL origin, Kal-El is just an embryo, so you could say he was born on Earth and not on Krypton.
    I can't say I ever understood the fanaticism that Byrne and Carlin had about having no other surviving Kryptonians, particularly when it caused so much pointless convoluted nonsense to enforce it.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I can't say I ever understood the fanaticism that Byrne and Carlin had about having no other surviving Kryptonians, particularly when it caused so much pointless convoluted nonsense to enforce it.
    The immediate Post Crisis era was the height of DC’s inferiority complex towards Marvel, so the fanaticism about continuity was born out of their desire to emulate Marvel. One Earth, one continuity, and no bringing back anything from Pre-Crisis because that time was silly and childish and DC was for big boys now.

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