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  1. #151
    Uncanny Member JustAnotherFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I never bought this idea, which led to HOM, and then Decimation after Morrison cut down the number to roughly sixteen million there was no reason that mutants needed to cut even further to 200 how did that make the X-books better or move the narrative forward other than the "grand" push Cyclops received. Mutants were an actual minority in NXM, much more realistic than what we had before and most definitely than what we have now.


    And to be fair the world we live in, or just outside our window there are hundreds of millions of minorities, but in-verse mutant numbers never reached that level so what was the problem again!??
    But you're missing something. Despite what comics might have stated with there only being 16 million mutants in the whole world there is no way that that number was anywhere close to accurate. Just think about it, mutants were forming their own ghettos and equivalents of china towns in New York City and maybe other big cities and there was an X-Corporation branch in most of the major cities of the world. If there were enough mutants for all that then there had to be way more than just 16 million spread all across the world. 16 million would have been less than 1 percent of the whole world's population. And it wasn't the number of mutants in US alone but in the whole world. So there's no way that it matched what was being shown in the comics themselves.

    And what comes to Marvel's decision to drop the mutants to 200 I don't agree with it one bit either. There was no need for that and if they wanted to cut the number of mutants they could have done it in another way and didn't have to go with the endangered species direction. But I do believe that people like Quesada felt that there were too many mutants in the whole MU and decided (at least partially) because of that to wipe most of them away. I think that the idea to make mutants endangered only came after that. Probably someone came up with that direction once it had already been decided that the mutants would be cut down in numbers. That direction could have IMHO been a decent standalone story if it was a thing for only a couple of years instead of 7 years!

    So as i said I don't agree with it or defend it but I do believe that the original main reasoning for it was that there were too many mutants. And I can see why they would feel that way when it comes to books with non-mutant characters. A real superpowered minority that is as big as the number of people with Chinese, Indian or African decent in the real world could be a great story but it would never be possible in a shared MU.

    Especially now that X-Men are not even the most important part of that MU in Marvel's opinion. But that once again goes to the territory of asking if mutants and X-Men should be in their own world separate from the rest of MU and it's a discussion I'm not really interested in participating again because there are pros and cons to that just as there are to the shared MU.
    Last edited by JustAnotherFan; 09-03-2015 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Celestialbodies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    But you're missing something. Despite what comics might have stated with there only being 16 million mutants in the whole world there is no way that that number was anywhere close to accurate. Just think about it, mutants were forming their own ghettos and equivalents of china towns in New York City and maybe other big cities and there was an X-Corporation branch in most of the major cities of the world. If there were enough mutants for all that then there had to be way more than just 16 million spread all across the world. 16 million would have been less than 1 percent of the whole world's population. And it wasn't the number of mutants in US alone but in the whole world. So there's no way that it matched what was being shown in the comics themselves.

    And what comes to Marvel's decision to drop the mutants to 200 I don't agree with it one bit either. There was no need for that and if they wanted to cut the number of mutants they could have done it in another way and didn't have to go with the endangered species direction. But I do believe that people like Quesada felt that there were too many mutants in the whole MU and decided (at least partially) because of that to wipe most of them away. I think that the idea to make mutants endangered only came after that. Probably someone came up with that direction once it had already been decided that the mutants would be cut down in numbers. That direction could have IMHO been a decent standalone story if it was a thing for only a couple of years instead of 7 years!

    So as i said I don't agree with it or defend it but I do believe that the original main reasoning for it was that there were too many mutants. And I can see why they would feel that way when it comes to books with non-mutant characters. A real superpowered minority that is as big as the number of people with Chinese, Indian or African decent in the real world could be a great story but it would never be possible in a shared MU.

    Especially now that X-Men are not even the most important part of that MU in Marvel's opinion. But that once again goes to the territory of asking if mutants and X-Men should be in their own world separate from the rest of MU and it's a discussion I'm not really interested in participating again because there are pros and cons to that just as there are to the shared MU.
    I understand this, but how many mutants that are actually shown is up to the discretion of the writer if Marvel heads thought there were too many mutants then why not just ignore it, it's not like they hadn't been before besides let's just sit back and think about how much of the narrative such as familial connections the X-men have which we never get to see or how many actual heroes that exist in the just the X-verse which they never have a problem just ignoring or under-using. It sent a very direct message with the utterance of a few words bringing a group of people to near extinction!!!! And the worse part is it didn't even create interesting stories without the need of taking most if not all of the X-men leaders off the table so everyone could follow one!

  3. #153
    Fantastic Member General Nerditry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    Maybe you're right. But still, having guys like Daredevil and Spidey and Avengers in a world where there are mutant reality show stars and mutant celebrities and mutant ghettos and mutant equivalents of china towns etc. would be weird it would make the whole universe seem rather different from our own.
    See, I don't really think it would be a problem. I don't see one or two outspoken mutant celebrities being out of place in a world of Miley Cyrus, Antoine Dodson, the crazy reality shows, etc. I think it would actually fit in perfectly, just the mutant thing would explain some of the eccentricity of this one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    Despite what comics might have stated with there only being 16 million mutants in the whole world there is no way that that number was anywhere close to accurate. Just think about it, mutants were forming their own ghettos and equivalents of china towns in New York City and maybe other big cities and there was an X-Corporation branch in most of the major cities of the world. If there were enough mutants for all that then there had to be way more than just 16 million spread all across the world. 16 million would have been less than 1 percent of the whole world's population. And it wasn't the number of mutants in US alone but in the whole world. So there's no way that it matched what was being shown in the comics themselves.
    Not necessarily. It makes sense to me that a large quantity to mutants would congregate in a place like mutant town, so the population density there would be much higher than your average city. The entire NYC metropolitan area is estimated to have a population of 20 million overall, so with 16 million worldwide that is way more than enough to fill up a village of a few blocks in New York.


    A real superpowered minority that is as big as the number of people with Chinese, Indian or African decent in the real world could be a great story but it would never be possible in a shared MU.
    These numbers aren't really that binding in a comic book anyway, since it's really up to the writers to choose how much they want to portray. It's not like the writers of Daredevil or Thor need to mention mutants every issue. It can just be a known background statistic that doesn't effect everyday stories much at all.

    Honestly, I think Morrison was more on the nose than he realized. While the original 1960s concept was an allegory for the civil rights movement and outsiders, I think the current gay equal rights movement is the perfect modern equivalent, and the increased focus on a growing mutant community would have looked right at home beside it. Consider the prominence of openly gay celebrities and the growing acceptance by at least a strong proportion of the population. Many TV shows, both scripted and reality, feature openly gay casts, and even some of the more public parades, etc, are very visually engaging, lots going on, like a lot of Morrison's mutant culture. Not saying it's a perfect comparison or that Morrison got everything right, but I think the "coming out", so to speak, of mutants into the mainstream culture was right on the money, and especially so in hindsight.

    Great discussion, by the way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I understand this, but how many mutants that are actually shown is up to the discretion of the writer .....And the worse part is it didn't even create interesting stories without the need of taking most if not all of the X-men leaders off the table so everyone could follow one!
    Exactly. There was no need for non-mutant focused books to spend much, if any time on it. And I agree, Decimation didn't create interesting stories. It felt like a huge artificial step back that forced the X-line to tread water for half a decade, IMO.

  4. #154
    Uncanny Member JustAnotherFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I understand this, but how many mutants that are actually shown is up to the discretion of the writer if Marvel heads thought there were too many mutants then why not just ignore it, it's not like they hadn't been before besides let's just sit back and think about how much of the narrative such as familial connections the X-men have which we never get to see or how many actual heroes that exist in the just the X-verse which they never have a problem just ignoring or under-using. It sent a very direct message with the utterance of a few words bringing a group of people to near extinction!!!! And the worse part is it didn't even create interesting stories without the need of taking most if not all of the X-men leaders off the table so everyone could follow one!
    Yes, they could have done that too but the guy in charge at the time was someone who never cared about the X-Men or liked them much so why would you expect him to know what would be the best direction with the franchise? There are tons of stories in Marvel comics that would make sense if told completely differently.

    As I said, I'm not a big fan of this story either but I think that at the time Marvel or whoever was in charge saw it as the only and best option. (For all of half a minute they thought about it before printing it) They like to do certain stories without thinking ahead on how those stories will affect things in the future. They'll worry about that once they get there and that's why we have stuff like Wanda suddenly going nuts and wiping out all mutants and then all the blame being shifted on Doom/life force/whatever MacGuffin to "redeem" her almost decade later or why Tony Stark was such an a-hole in Civil War and then him being "redeemed" by simply wiping his memory of how he was such an a-hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by impulseucf View Post
    See, I don't really think it would be a problem. I don't see one or two outspoken mutant celebrities being out of place in a world of Miley Cyrus, Antoine Dodson, the crazy reality shows, etc. I think it would actually fit in perfectly, just the mutant thing would explain some of the eccentricity of this one person.

    Not necessarily. It makes sense to me that a large quantity to mutants would congregate in a place like mutant town, so the population density there would be much higher than your average city. The entire NYC metropolitan area is estimated to have a population of 20 million overall, so with 16 million worldwide that is way more than enough to fill up a village of a few blocks in New York.

    These numbers aren't really that binding in a comic book anyway, since it's really up to the writers to choose how much they want to portray. It's not like the writers of Daredevil or Thor need to mention mutants every issue. It can just be a known background statistic that doesn't effect everyday stories much at all.
    Well, if there are supposed to be enough mutants in the world for them to be considered equivalent to a real world minority in America, for example, then you would have to address that in other MU titles. Otherwise there would be huge inconsistency between x-books and rest of the MU books. Like Daredevil in his civilian identity would have to come across some cases dealing with mutant issues at times or Peter Parker as a teacher would have to come across a mutant student or two or as a photographer would have to come across mutant celebrities that JJJ wants him to get pictures of etc.. If you don't do stuff like that then it is going to look weird. You can sacrifice what little consistency MU has left by doing that if you want but I guess Marvel didn't feel like it.

    Saying that mutants were more concentrated in places like NYC is a fine suggestion but Xavier forming X-Corporation and opening offices all around the world would suggest that there really are way more than 16 million all around the globe.

    Honestly, I think Morrison was more on the nose than he realized. While the original 1960s concept was an allegory for the civil rights movement and outsiders, I think the current gay equal rights movement is the perfect modern equivalent, and the increased focus on a growing mutant community would have looked right at home beside it. Consider the prominence of openly gay celebrities and the growing acceptance by at least a strong proportion of the population. Many TV shows, both scripted and reality, feature openly gay casts, and even some of the more public parades, etc, are very visually engaging, lots going on, like a lot of Morrison's mutant culture. Not saying it's a perfect comparison or that Morrison got everything right, but I think the "coming out", so to speak, of mutants into the mainstream culture was right on the money, and especially so in hindsight.
    Eh, as I said above, it would have made it pretty inconsistent if there were mutant celebrities in x-books and every other person walking on Manhattan was a mutant but then there were no mutants in Daredevil/Spider-man. Readers would have been complaining about the lack of consistency. Really, it would have put X-Men in a universe of their own even more to the point where it probably would have been preferable to just separate X-verse from the MU.

    Also I'm not sure if taking that direction would have been popular in the long run considering that throughout the years in its most basic form X-Men has still been a superhero comic. Maybe a superhero comic with a social commentary undertones but still a superhero comic none the less. This direction however would have changed it quite a bit and made it more social commentary and less superhero stuff. I honestly don't know if that would have been better or worse for the x-books saleswise and could see that as another reason for Marvel to choose the creative direction of cutting the mutants' numbers.

    Granted this direction still stopped X-Men from being superheroes when they were just trying to survive so it's possible that Marvel never thought about it that deeply. Probably it was just Quesada going to creators with "We have too many god damn mutants! We need to do something about this! Anyone have any ideas?" and then someone suggesting the idea of wiping mutants out to near extinction and Quesada going "Great! We'll do that!" and that's it. So we're probably putting way more thought into this than they ever did.

    But outside of those issues I once again agree with you on the rest. It could have been amazing and a source for so many interesting socially relevant stories.

    Great discussion, by the way!
    Agreed. This is an interesting discussion.

    Exactly. There was no need for non-mutant focused books to spend much, if any time on it. And I agree, Decimation didn't create interesting stories. It felt like a huge artificial step back that forced the X-line to tread water for half a decade, IMO.
    I may not have liked Decimation and its results but it could have been a chance for some good stories and in some cases it was. Messiah CompleX was good for example. And Decimation may have been hurtful in the long run for X-Men franchise but it didn't really directly cause x-books to thread water or go back to a previous set up. That whole near extinction was a new angle and idea at the time. X-Men hadn't had stories where they were fighting off real extinction as a species before. Fighting antimutant people doesn't really count since there was never any indication that those campaigns could eradicate mutants as a species completely before M-Day happened.

    Sure it went on for too long and failed miserably at the end but that's more related to Marvel's other decisions and choices that hurt the execution of this story more. Hope's storyline was dragged out for too long and in the end she was pointless but that's mainly because Marvel decided to force Avengers into that story even though they were never supposed to be a big part of it.

  5. #155
    Mutatis Mutandis ChildOfTheAtom's Avatar
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  6. #156
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Cyclops
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    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  7. #157
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    K/Y New X-Men is without a doubt my number one. I'm a huge fan of these characters and I've been hungry for more good stories involving then for years. When this was coming out I actually took the bus to the comic store to pick up the newest issue.

    All New X-Factor is #2. I loved the relationship between Quicksilver and Polaris, and the story had a lot of potential.

    Alpha Flight is number 3. I would love to see them in a good book. The minis were not so good.

  8. #158
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    X-Men Forever 2

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    X-Men Forever 2
    Yeah lol... kind of agree

    Also Nightcrawler most recently,

    The X-Force by Spurrier, the X-Factor by David

    To piggyback off of what some others mentioned, the "Young X-Men" book was bad to get cancelled, we needed that to be the spiritual successor more or less to Generation X which succeeded New Mutants

    The fact there has not been a "Kid Mutants" book is pretty damning about Marvel overall and their treatment of X-verse
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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