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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Wizard's daughter Cole Whitman...did Wizard 'fix' her powers?
    I have to reread that story (which I have no memories of) but with Bentley being a major futire plot point in a Wizard plan as well as a line-up of Johnny's former ladyfriends, I'd expect Cole to fit right in.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I have to reread that story (which I have no memories of) but with Bentley being a major futire plot point in a Wizard plan as well as a line-up of Johnny's former ladyfriends, I'd expect Cole to fit right in.
    I don't think she's appeared anywhere for a long time, unless it was something obscure. So I'm guessing she is a half sister to all of the Wizards clone children.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Ha! I was just about to post about Huntara.

    She is another unresolved plot. Is she really a Richards? Or is she that long lost sister to Paul Alvarez? It seems that DeFalco was trying to introduce Latino characters into the book with both Huntara and Lazerfist. Too bad neither took off.

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    I had no idea this thread existed. Hurray!

    So I often pondered some of the many moving pieces in DeFalco's FF, which I mostly liked.

    Huntara makes sense as half sister to Reed. But to me, that is what I got from Nathaniel's story, the possibility that Kristoff is Reed's half brother. This to seems to make sense, if we believe what is given.
    Defalco's era is one of favorites because it gave me all the Soapy Opera stuff I love in a comic.
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  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Kristoff Vernard and Reed aren't related. More to the point would be is Reed related to Kang? That's always been pretty murky and Kang doesn't seem to be sure about it. It was recently brought up in the Doctor Doom series.




    IIRC The confusion began back in Byrne's run when we saw the widowed Nathaniel Richards had traveled to the future and was living there with a new wife named Cassandra. They had a child and I don't know if it the dots were officially connected to Kang. The child's name was not given in this story.



    When Nathaniel was seen later in Tom DeFalco's Fantastic Four he starts to drop some hints to Sue about Reed having a brother. He tells a story about some time travel campaign ending badly and he managed to return to Earth where he was found by a Roma woman who used her healing skills to help in recover. Some took that to mean that the woman was Cynthia Von Doom and that Reed was Doom's half brother but that was tossed out. Reed's mother was Evelyn Richards. I don't think that the relationship with Kristoff was ever made canon. At one point towards the end of DeFalco's run Nathaniel tells Sue that he had mislead her all this time while Reed was assumed to have died in FF #381.

    Even more confusing is that the Nathaniel that showed up in these issue had this eye piece that he wore. It was no clear why. Did he lose an eye iin some battle in the time stream? Then much later in Hickman's run Nathaniel Richards returns and he is looks much different, like a younger version of Nathaniel than we saw in Byrne's story and later in the DeFalco FF. This is when the Immortus's Great Hunt begins and all the Multiverse Nathaniels must fight each other to the death. At one point, there is a scene with a Nathaniel with the eye piece seen in DeFalco's run is killed by the most aggressive of the Nathaniels, who is called the Beast IIRC. IMO this was Hickman's way of clearing up the confusing history of Nathaniel and that the one appearing in DeFalco's run was not Reed's true father and came from some other version of Earth.



    Hi IM,

    Well, when I read the original 'idea' in Defalco, it seemed they were talking about Kristoff, not Doom.

    But what specifically indicates this is NO, because I'm not aware of that. I'm aware of it as an unsolved/resolved plot, that probably should have been. pfffft!

    I'm very fascinated with Nathaniel and what ever chain leads through Reed and possibly Kang.

    But, there must be a reason, or at least 'something' for why Kang and Doom do this dance too.

    I know it is horrifying, but I thought it clever, if Defalco thought of a way to make Nathaniel be Cable or so it seemed. Again, though, once you start having multiple realities and clones (Stryfe?) well. . . .
    ~ Oberon ~
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Hi IM,

    Well, when I read the original 'idea' in Defalco, it seemed they were talking about Kristoff, not Doom.
    Yes, this my thought too back then. But DeFalco muddies the waters quite a bit during that era of the FF.




    Then later Sue confronts him about his "revelations" in FF #396





    I think the page showing Doom and Kang discussing their possible connection from the Doom series was writer Cantwell having a little fun. He was demonstrating how confusing things are between them so that they aren't even sure


    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    But what specifically indicates this is NO, because I'm not aware of that. I'm aware of it as an unsolved/resolved plot, that probably should have been. pfffft!

    I'm very fascinated with Nathaniel and what ever chain leads through Reed and possibly Kang.

    But, there must be a reason, or at least 'something' for why Kang and Doom do this dance too.

    I know it is horrifying, but I thought it clever, if Defalco thought of a way to make Nathaniel be Cable or so it seemed. Again, though, once you start having multiple realities and clones (Stryfe?) well. . . .
    In Hickman's Fantastic Four #581-582 there was the Great Hunt which dealt with the different versions of Nathaniel. Byrne's Nathaniel was elderly and rather benign and had a devious wife named Cassandra. This version of Nathaniel didn't have the eyepiece of the Nathaniel in DeFalco's FF. I think it is significant that Hickman gives us the Great Hunt that eliminates all of the alternate versions of Nathaniel, one of which was an eyepiece like the DeFalco era Nathaniel. I think Hickman is doing some housekeeping here and cleaning up the disparity between DeFalco's Nathaniel and the Bryne Nathaniel. There is one aggressive Nathaniel that becomes known as The Beast who kills all of the other versions until only he and the Nathaniel from Hickman's run is left.

    It seemed to me that one of Hickman's goals was to make the the FF characters more unique to the multiverse. One of the goals of the Councils of Reed was to eliminate or lobotomize all the Dooms they came across. Then most of the Council of Reeds members were killed off in attack on their citadel by the Mad Celestials


  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes, this my thought too back then. But DeFalco muddies the waters quite a bit during that era of the FF.




    Then later Sue confronts him about his "revelations" in FF #396





    I think the page showing Doom and Kang discussing their possible connection from the Doom series was writer Cantwell having a little fun. He was demonstrating how confusing things are between them so that they aren't even sure




    In Hickman's Fantastic Four #581-582 there was the Great Hunt which dealt with the different versions of Nathaniel. Byrne's Nathaniel was elderly and rather benign and had a devious wife named Cassandra. This version of Nathaniel didn't have the eyepiece of the Nathaniel in DeFalco's FF. I think it is significant that Hickman gives us the Great Hunt that eliminates all of the alternate versions of Nathaniel, one of which was an eyepiece like the DeFalco era Nathaniel. I think Hickman is doing some housekeeping here and cleaning up the disparity between DeFalco's Nathaniel and the Bryne Nathaniel. There is one aggressive Nathaniel that becomes known as The Beast who kills all of the other versions until only he and the Nathaniel from Hickman's run is left.

    It seemed to me that one of Hickman's goals was to make the the FF characters more unique to the multiverse. One of the goals of the Councils of Reed was to eliminate or lobotomize all the Dooms they came across. Then most of the Council of Reeds members were killed off in attack on their citadel by the Mad Celestials

    I really appreciate your follow up. I must be old -am-, I read DeFalco but don't exactly remember that inference, Doom and Reed being brothers. So wow.

    I have mixed feelings about Hickman's work with Nathaniel. But I still see that between Byrne, Defalco and him that there is enough loose ends to still provide new stories or aspects.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I really appreciate your follow up. I must be old -am-, I read DeFalco but don't exactly remember that inference, Doom and Reed being brothers. So wow.

    I have mixed feelings about Hickman's work with Nathaniel. But I still see that between Byrne, Defalco and him that there is enough loose ends to still provide new stories or aspects.
    I was glad that Hickman got a chance to do something with Nathaniel. I have always found it odd that we always knew more about Victor's parents then we did about Reed's. Victor obviously has much love for his father and mother even though most stories about his childhood center on Cynthia rather than Werner. It's easy to forget that in the FF annual #2 it is the death of his father that sets young Victor off and he begins to undertake a small resistance against the Latveria monach. Back then, there was little told about his mother until later in Astonishing Tales #8 which inspired the GN Triumph & Torment. Meanwhile we see very little if any mention of Reed's parents until Byrne's FF run. We still know very little about Reed's mother.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Speaking of Nathaniel, we never got closure on the Huntara situation.
    Last edited by danielsan52; 05-10-2021 at 04:23 AM.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Speaking g of Nathaniel, we never got closure on the Huntara situation.
    I think once there is a change over to a new writer, they make a choice whether or not to continue with any new elements added. And it this case, you had the Fantastic Four title come to and end of what we now call volume one when Marvel allowed Image to do Heroes Reborn: Fantastic Four. So I don't find it surprising that the new creative team of Scott Lobdell & Alan Davis after Heroes Reborn was over decided to start fresh. Chris Claremont took over when Scott Lobdell left suddenly to take a job out West and he added his own touch to the FF with characters like Valeria von Doom, Lancer, Caledonia, and a few others as I recall.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I suppose Defalco's Nathaniel offered future writers too many prospects that other writers might not want to handle.

    For example, we could simply say that Huntara could have been a child of the elder Richards, as well as half-sibling to Reed, aunt to Franklin, etc.

    But he could also have just plucked them from somewhere in timestreams, as he did with Franklin, raising them, etc.

    In some ways, NR is the anti-Reed. Or maybe the very flawed Reed. the worst things about Reed as a parent are proxied in Nathaniel.

    Anyone else's take on the Defalco Nathaniel as somehow someway, Cable (eye piece and other things).

    I think Defalco was possibly serious, but restrained by editors. Maybe he thought he could put enough in to force the thought, but it didn't?
    If Reed's father is Cable, than Jean and Scott would be Reed's grandparents, right?

    Too weird for Marvel even.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  11. #56
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I suppose Defalco's Nathaniel offered future writers too many prospects that other writers might not want to handle.

    For example, we could simply say that Huntara could have been a child of the elder Richards, as well as half-sibling to Reed, aunt to Franklin, etc.

    But he could also have just plucked them from somewhere in timestreams, as he did with Franklin, raising them, etc.

    In some ways, NR is the anti-Reed. Or maybe the very flawed Reed. the worst things about Reed as a parent are proxied in Nathaniel.

    Anyone else's take on the Defalco Nathaniel as somehow someway, Cable (eye piece and other things).

    I think Defalco was possibly serious, but restrained by editors. Maybe he thought he could put enough in to force the thought, but it didn't?
    If Reed's father is Cable, than Jean and Scott would be Reed's grandparents, right?

    Too weird for Marvel even.
    Tom DeFalco was not just the writer for the Fantastic Four he was Editor in Chief at the time (1987-1994). It's not unusual as we know Stan Lee was EIC for many years while still writing or plotting several titles. Jim Shooter was EIC and he wrote the Secret Wars event.

    While I didn't like the Nathaniel of the DeFalco era I think Hickman made the character more likeable and more trustworthy than the 1990's version. But he could also be secretive and that is a trait that Reed has too. He has held information back from the rest of the FF at times.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    I really liked DeFalco and Ryan's run. Like Lee and Kirby's run, theirs was a pleantyful source of threads to be mined by other writers. A lot of stuff has been carried on by further runs, and quite a lot still hasn't (and maybe never will).

    Peace

  13. #58

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    Slott's heavy use of the FF family makes Nathaniel a natural for this run. If he was coming back, now would seem to be an appropriate time. Unless, of course, Hickman has SHIELD plans for him and OG Nick Fury.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Slott's heavy use of the FF family makes Nathaniel a natural for this run. If he was coming back, now would seem to be an appropriate time. Unless, of course, Hickman has SHIELD plans for him and OG Nick Fury.
    I haven't been following everything but it seems to me I read somewhere that Nick Fury is no longer the Watcher on the Moon or whatever. That reminds me....I don't think I ever read the conclusion of Hickman's SHIELD. It was delayed for a long time. I guess I will have to see if it is on Marvel Unlimited.

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I haven't been following everything but it seems to me I read somewhere that Nick Fury is no longer the Watcher on the Moon or whatever. That reminds me....I don't think I ever read the conclusion of Hickman's SHIELD. It was delayed for a long time. I guess I will have to see if it is on Marvel Unlimited.
    Nathaniel and Howard Stark were part of an early version of SHIELD as shown in Hickman's run. My personal desire is to see Nick advanced to one of the immortal characters like Galileo and such in Hickman's SHIELD. It's still way out there, but it makes much more sense to me than OG Nick either being the Watcher or the Watcher's muscle.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

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