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  1. #31
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    You make a great point here! And although it's been brought up before, something just struck me: in that universe, Harley Quinn has a stronger will than Superman.

    If that doesn't earn the game it's "Injustice" title, nothing does. lol
    But muh wacky survivor.

    What it comes down to is that everyone knows how powerful Superman is. He's become the benchmark for all fictional match-ups. It's why people want their favorite self-inserts (Batman, Goku, whathaveyou) fight him, but in order to not feel like a jackass for punching a dude who is literally just hanging out in case you have a bad day and helping you, they make him evil so you can get a rush seeing him subverted. Couple that with DC running with Frank Miller's "Superman, stooge of the government" approach and Clark is being sold as some establishment thug in a cape who pushes a very specific status quo.

    In most evil Superman stories that I've ever encountered, he's used more as a symbol than a character and is an obstacle for someone else to overcome. Red Son is one of the few inversions where he's the protagonist, and while he's more misguided than inherently evil, we actually see his struggles and why he feels the way he does without some petty excuse as a motivator.

    If in the next decade we don't see an iconic Superman that actually lands with audiences, one where Lois isn't his morality chain which if shattered turns him evil, you'll basically have an entire generation that grew up with Superman being nothing but a tool to the general audience. When was the last time the dude really stood for something in mass media? That's what's really at risk. I'm not here to argue the merits of the Snyder films, but they did not land with the general audience nor really deliver the character that they knew through cultural osmosis.

    That said, I don't think the Snyder Cut can really do a ton of lasting harm at this point because it's been so long since Man of Steel that Snyder's take has become more about him than it is about the characters. It's even called "The Snyder Cut," so it does shield the core characters from being read as their iconic selves, for good or ill. There's a big difference between saying "Superman" and "Donner's Superman" or "Miller's Superman," but it's the next big project that really matters. For that, I'm more concerned for Superman & Lois than the Snyder Cut, if only because if he exists to be a supporting cast spinoff to Kara, well you're going to effectively be telling your audience "Superman's done."

  2. #32
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    To be fair, i don't particularly care for "iconic" superman. I just don't think the character being an icon is a valid arguments. when even religions have started to give leeways in presentation of character albeit a little. I am just not enamoured by what seems to be that.The character just doesn't know what it's like to fall. He isn't grounded. The character is too comfortable . Supes is wayyy better when he is a bit of reckless, dick, bully... Etc. But, in a way that makes sense. I like the man in motion. Modern superman stories has him being stuck.

  3. #33
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    To be fair, i don't particularly care for "iconic" superman. I just don't think the character being an icon is a valid arguments. when even religions have started to give leeways in presentation of character albeit a little. I am just not enamoured by what seems to be that.The character just doesn't know what it's like to fall. He isn't grounded. The character is too comfortable . Supes is wayyy better when he is a bit of reckless, dick, bully... Etc. But, in a way that makes sense. I like the man in motion. Modern superman stories has him being stuck.
    I can get frustrated when he's written as iconic too, because there's so much reverence for the dude they're afraid to let him punch cops who are beating up on someone. Instead, he'd just get in the way, they'd break their knuckles and saunter off to heal and do it again. It frustrates me too, man.

    But it's a far cry better than someone who broods all day about "maybe I don't need to be here." You're right in that Superman is a man in motion. He needs to act, not contemplate the ethics of acting. If he messes up, well a more mature Superman finds a way to learn from it and apply himself in a better manner. That's a more compelling story than "does the world need a Superman?" Again, I don't want to make this about the DCEU, but it's been made clear that to the general audience, they want less Snyder and more Reeve, but the next take needs to be neither. Superman needs to be the Man of Tomorrow again, not the Man I Wish Would Return, no matter how much that nostalgia would bring a smile to my face, the character needs help in the public eye and playing the hits won't cut it.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I can get frustrated when he's written as iconic too, because there's so much reverence for the dude they're afraid to let him punch cops who are beating up on someone. Instead, he'd just get in the way, they'd break their knuckles and saunter off to heal and do it again. It frustrates me too, man.

    But it's a far cry better than someone who broods all day about "maybe I don't need to be here." You're right in that Superman is a man in motion. He needs to act, not contemplate the ethics of acting. If he messes up, well a more mature Superman finds a way to learn from it and apply himself in a better manner. That's a more compelling story than "does the world need a Superman?" Again, I don't want to make this about the DCEU, but it's been made clear that to the general audience, they want less Snyder and more Reeve, but the next take needs to be neither. Superman needs to be the Man of Tomorrow again, not the Man I Wish Would Return, no matter how much that nostalgia would bring a smile to my face, the character needs help in the public eye and playing the hits won't cut it.
    In the last interview Bryan Edward Hill gave to the Word Balloon, he was asked if he wanted to write more Superman, in his response he said that his favorite thing to write about Superman is how people in universe react to him. Maybe that is the problem, writers are more interested on the impact Superman was supposed to have, instead of writing the character actually doing somethin impactful.

  5. #35
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I can get frustrated when he's written as iconic too, because there's so much reverence for the dude they're afraid to let him punch cops who are beating up on someone. Instead, he'd just get in the way, they'd break their knuckles and saunter off to heal and do it again. It frustrates me too, man.

    But it's a far cry better than someone who broods all day about "maybe I don't need to be here." You're right in that Superman is a man in motion. He needs to act, not contemplate the ethics of acting. If he messes up, well a more mature Superman finds a way to learn from it and apply himself in a better manner. That's a more compelling story than "does the world need a Superman?" Again, I don't want to make this about the DCEU, but it's been made clear that to the general audience, they want less Snyder and more Reeve, but the next take needs to be neither. Superman needs to be the Man of Tomorrow again, not the Man I Wish Would Return, no matter how much that nostalgia would bring a smile to my face, the character needs help in the public eye and playing the hits won't cut it.
    I like what snyder created as a world.That's how his world should be reacting to superman. Superman can cause severe damage. He is a genuine delima good or bad. But,my thing is the character should persevere. The guy should be above it being the champion he should be. As you said, he is better of acting, acting and acting. Than inaction and needless over contemplation . That doesn't mean the character is shallow. It's the opposite.

    On flip side, i don't want the naive farmboy superman nonsense. Which is entirely due to reeve's portrayal. That thing needs to go. It isn't endearing. They even treat it as serious. Superman should be an idealist fighting for truth and justice with conviction, resolve and an understanding of objective reality /issues. He shouldn't portrayed as a guy living the life and asking stupid questions about people down in the dirt. Clark kent should be as blessed in his human life as bibbo bibbowski. One punch man's feels grounded as a person. He is jobless, depressed,bored... Etc. But, he isn't down and out. The guy feels like someone you would meet in the street. His powers aren't a deterrent to that portrayal.I also think, superman house of el royalty status is bogus. His s shouldn't be some great symbol . It can become that, only if the character in universe earns it. Then there is the problem with the character being handed out things like fortress or citadel and not having to put effort in developing his own abilities . I much prefer the goldenage philosophy. I like superman who made himself from scratch with nothing but his natural talents.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-10-2020 at 01:16 AM.

  6. #36
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    In the last interview Bryan Edward Hill gave to the Word Balloon, he was asked if he wanted to write more Superman, in his response he said that his favorite thing to write about Superman is how people in universe react to him. Maybe that is the problem, writers are more interested on the impact Superman was supposed to have, instead of writing the character actually doing somethin impactful.
    It’s a problem. We’ve been stuck getting stories about Superman as an allegory for America, or Jesus, or immigration, or adoption, that we’ve lost sight of Superman the character. Yes all that stuff I listed is important, yes Superman is special and the greatest hero ever (I 100% believe that even while others have had greater success recently), but you gotta focus on his damn character before anyone is going to give a damn about his status. You gotta focus on his drives, his ambitions, hopes, fears, loves, hatreds, in addition to him grappling with his iconic status. Before you can ask “must there be a Superman?” You need to build him up and actually do the damn work on page or on screen before you can start deconstructing him and putting him under examination.

  7. #37
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I like what snyder created as a world.That's how his world should be reacting to superman. Superman can cause severe damage. He is a genuine delima good or bad. But,my thing is the character should persevere. The guy should be above it being the champion he should be. As you said, he is better of acting, acting and acting. Than inaction and needless over contemplation . That doesn't mean the character is shallow. It's the opposite.

    On flip side, i don't want the naive farmboy superman nonsense. Which is entirely due to reeve's portrayal. That thing needs to go. It isn't endearing. They even treat it as serious. Superman should be an idealist fighting for truth and justice with conviction, resolve and an understanding of objective reality /issues. He shouldn't portrayed as a guy living the life and asking stupid questions about people down in the dirt. Clark kent should be as blessed in his human life as bibbo bibbowski. One punch man's feels grounded as a person. He is jobless, depressed,bored... Etc. But, he isn't down and out. The guy feels like someone you would meet in the street. His powers aren't a deterrent to that portrayal.I also think, superman house of el royalty status is bogus. His s shouldn't be some great symbol . It can become that, only if the character in universe earns it. Then there is the problem with the character being handed out things like fortress or citadel and not having to put effort in developing his own abilities . I much prefer the goldenage philosophy. I like superman who made himself from scratch with nothing but his natural talents.
    I hate the noble house thing too. It makes him some weird cosmic prince instead of, well, the last son of two scientists betting it all on a glimmer of hope, raised in the dirt by two kindly farmers and forged into the ultimate man of the people.

    Turning him into some orphaned aristocrat just makes him space Batman who smiles. Part of the charm is that everything was taken from him, he was raised with nothing and had the power to take everything, but chose to help others. In fact, he actively hates those with means and resources to help many but use them to control and oppress. He was made to be the people's champion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It’s a problem. We’ve been stuck getting stories about Superman as an allegory for America, or Jesus, or immigration, or adoption, that we’ve lost sight of Superman the character. Yes all that stuff I listed is important, yes Superman is special and the greatest hero ever (I 100% believe that even while others have had greater success recently), but you gotta focus on his damn character before anyone is going to give a damn about his status. You gotta focus on his drives, his ambitions, hopes, fears, loves, hatreds, in addition to him grappling with his iconic status. Before you can ask “must there be a Superman?” You need to build him up and actually do the damn work on page or on screen before you can start deconstructing him and putting him under examination.
    Yeah, much as I enjoy those moments, I feel his myth has overtaken him. Part of what I enjoy about Bendis it's he gets Clark's voice so well and he does have a character. Not everything works on that run, but Clark is certainly not two dimensional.

  8. #38
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I hate the noble house thing too. It makes him some weird cosmic prince instead of, well, the last son of two scientists betting it all on a glimmer of hope, raised in the dirt by two kindly farmers and forged into the ultimate man of the people.

    Turning him into some orphaned aristocrat just makes him space Batman who smiles. Part of the charm is that everything was taken from him, he was raised with nothing and had the power to take everything, but chose to help others. In fact, he actively hates those with means and resources to help many but use them to control and oppress. He was made to be the people's champion.



    Yeah, much as I enjoy those moments, I feel his myth has overtaken him. Part of what I enjoy about Bendis it's he gets Clark's voice so well and he does have a character. Not everything works on that run, but Clark is certainly not two dimensional.
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I hate the noble house thing too. It makes him some weird cosmic prince instead of, well, the last son of two scientists betting it all on a glimmer of hope, raised in the dirt by two kindly farmers and forged into the ultimate man of the people.

    Turning him into some orphaned aristocrat just makes him space Batman who smiles. Part of the charm is that everything was taken from him, he was raised with nothing and had the power to take everything, but chose to help others. In fact, he actively hates those with means and resources to help many but use them to control and oppress. He was made to be the people's champion.



    Yeah, much as I enjoy those moments, I feel his myth has overtaken him. Part of what I enjoy about Bendis it's he gets Clark's voice so well and he does have a character. Not everything works on that run, but Clark is certainly not two dimensional.
    Yes, Bendis characterization is really good. The only thing holding his run back, imo, is the plot is weak in most cases, i'm not even talking about aging Jon. While he introduced some really cool concepts, like the Invisible Mafia, his stories are too decrompressed, it loses momentum.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I don't know if I can count Injustice Superman because the one that's popular is the game. Among the players or digital comics readers, I don't even know if there are people who like evil Superman in the plot.

    I think people universally hate Injustice Wonder Woman though... excepting some SM/WW fans who like to take what they can get...
    I think you'll have a difficult time finding a SMWW fan who enjoys injustice. I'm pretty sure most agree that if superman went full dictator, wonder woman would be the first in line to literally kick sense into him. I mean even if you can look past the problematic nature of their "relationship" in injustice, there are only two scenes implying romance (nice to look at without context I'll admit, not that the comic issue didn't pander to other fandoms as well), and they are either a dream or hallucination. I mean the justice lords had more chemistry then injustice and they appeared in a bruce timm verse. Not that I blame Tom taylor entirely, it's just that NetherRealm can't write romance to save their lives.

    I always wish that injustice could be done better, it could have been a philosophical debate just as much fighting game where superman and wonder woman trying to build a better world with more surveillance yet find people reluctant to give up freedoms vs a free world that has to have crime as part of that freedom and maybe batman admitting that he needs crime to forget the trauma he suffers.
    But nope lol, you can't have batman be wrong and "supermans laser goes brrrr through shazams head". At least they seem to have painted themselves into a corner with the second one so it'll be hard to get a sequel, unless they reboot the series with both sides swapping, but who am I kidding.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I don't know if I can count Injustice Superman because the one that's popular is the game. Among the players or digital comics readers, I don't even know if there are people who like evil Superman in the plot.

    The one they like, in games, are the characters they play with friends or characters they've been waiting to show up, for example, Ivy, Swamp Thing, Red Hood, and Starfire.

    In the digital comics, the one they like is characters like Harley because of her dynamic with Ollie and Dinah, Dinah herself because she came close to kill Superman, Billy Batson because he's unchanged, or Damian because they sympathize with him instead of Bruce who keeps blaming him for Dick's death.

    I think people universally hate Injustice Wonder Woman though... excepting some SM/WW fans who like to take what they can get...
    Why shouldn't Bruce blame Damian for Dick's death, Damian flat out murdered him and from what I've seen a lot of Injustice fans hate this version of Damian. They think he's whiny and of course they hate that he killed Dick.

  12. #42
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    Another dictator Superman?

  13. #43
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty04 View Post
    Another dictator Superman?

    All hail super-emperor

  14. #44
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    A group called "Men of steel" from the Dark Multiverse:

    Superman the bat of steel (Batman)
    Superman the will of steel (Green lantern)
    Superman the god of steel (Wonder woman)
    Superman the steel king (Aquaman)
    Superman the steel runner (Flash)
    Superman the living steel (Cyborg)

  15. #45
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty04 View Post
    A group called "Men of steel" from the Dark Multiverse:

    Superman the bat of steel (Batman)
    Superman the will of steel (Green lantern)
    Superman the god of steel (Wonder woman)
    Superman the steel king (Aquaman)
    Superman the steel runner (Flash)
    Superman the living steel (Cyborg)
    Don't we already have bat of steel?

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