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  1. #91
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'll only say this -

    Some people in this thread are very arrogant and close-minded. Is everything unexplainable that happens caused by a spirit (for lack of a better term), heck no, do I rule out the possibility completely that a spirit might be involved because I cannot "prove" beyond a shadow of a doubt it is caused by a spirit, again, heck no. My rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution in such cases rather than put oneself and others in possible jeopardy. If that makes me seem like a chump so be it.
    Extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My default is to not accept imaginary things for which there is no evidence.
    And while we are talking about "harm", I do not recall a single folktale, story or urban myth where a ghost did anything more than scare people.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Just because there's no proof doesn't mean these things don't happen
    True, but that's a serious clue.

    I don't have any proof right now that there isn't Jessica Alba waiting for me naked on my bed. Yet, based on the hard facts that i don't personally know her, live in a different country, am married and doesn't even own a glorious villa near Monaco like the peasant i am, i'm going to assume that the odds are fcking slim.

    It's not reasonable to base your reality on what could be here. But it's a fun topic and as i said i love ghost hunting shows.

  3. #93
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    In the entire history of humankind, there has been not one shred of evidence of the existence of ghosts beyond anecdotal tales easily explained by rational observation. Occam’s Razor applies here. Given a multitude of possibilities, the possibility that requires the least leaps of faith is the most likely to be true.

    You are not ‘letting your guard down’, because there is nothing to let your guard down for. You may as well wonder about letting your guard down about demons, vampires, psychics, faeries, unicorns, dragons, krakens, and so on. As much as we may wish these things existed, there is not, and there has never been, proof of their existence.

    There are plenty of REAL things to fear. Don’t add made up ghoulies and ghosties to the list. Tell ghost stories for fun, watch horror movies for a scare. But don’t get caught up in the myths and forget that they are just that: myths.
    There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, zinderel. I watch a lot of the ghost hunter shows for entertainment value for sure but they are using sophisticated equipment to try and collect some kind of verifiable evidence. For years the photograph of Brown Lady of Raynham Hall was the Holy Grail of ghost hunting but later studies have theorized that it is a double exposure. The photographer had gone on record that it was legit as he was only there to get photos for Country Life magazine. In a later interview, the photographer and his assistant maintained there was no faking of the photograph and that the assistant saw the figure as they were lining up a shot of the grand staircase for the article.

    Also interesting are the people who are curators or managers of some of these properties. The Eastern State Penitentiary and the Waverly Hills Santorium are notorious for the reputation for strange occurences. Many times these building no longer have power so they are definitely dark and creepy. But a lot of people died in those buildings, many not pleasantly. Both are tourist attractions these days and do have guided tours.

    More interesting is some of the collections of weird things being found on closed circuit cameras when no one is around. Many people these days have security cameras around their homes and have captured some strange stuff. As I mentioned earlier, I had heard shuffiling footsteps across a the carpet late at night in my parents home years ago, after my grandfather had passed away. I had also seen a shadow figure at my grandfather's house and it was not a full figure, just part of the top half of a body, the head & shoulders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'll only say this -

    Some people in this thread are very arrogant and close-minded. Is everything unexplainable that happens caused by a spirit (for lack of a better term), heck no, do I rule out the possibility completely that a spirit might be involved because I cannot "prove" beyond a shadow of a doubt it is caused by a spirit, again, heck no. My rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution in such cases rather than put oneself and others in possible jeopardy. If that makes me seem like a chump so be it.
    I think there are a lot of hoaxes out there but I think with the proliferation of phone cameras, cc cameras and home security cameras there have definitely been some peculiar things caught on film,

  4. #94
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Both are tourist attractions these days and do have guided tours
    I am especially skeptic when there is money involved. Of course a manager of a "haunted" place would tell you that weird stuff happens every day if it means more tourists.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Investigator Joe Nickell has been to both, and laid bare the myth of these ghost stories.

    And as with UFOs, we now have several billion cameras walking around everyday, and yet there are no more descent photos of these phenomena then there was 50 or 100 years ago.

    https://science.howstuffworks.com/sc...st-buster3.htm

    And how is curtailing your life to avoid imaginary beings "playing it safe". Should I buy a unicorn detector on Amazon to avoid having my nipple pierced? (Legends of Tomorrow reference)
    Last edited by Kirby101; 08-10-2020 at 11:15 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #96
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    How is science not logical in it's conclusions? How is the scientific method inferior to your own logic?
    The point of the scientific method is it doesn't rely on one persons view or belief. It is only accepted after objective confirmation by others.
    Coming to the conclusion that something doesn't happen or doesn't exist simply because it has not been PROVEN to happen or exist does not sound logical to me.

    So if 1 person saw a ghost, but can't prove that they saw a ghost to five scientists, those five scientists will agree that ghosts don't exist because there was no proof? Those scientists will only say ghosts exist if THEY themselves all saw the same ghost?

    I just don't think that everything that happens in this universe can be explained or proven.
    Last edited by MoneySpider; 08-10-2020 at 11:22 AM.
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  7. #97
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My default is to not accept imaginary things for which there is no evidence.
    And while we are talking about "harm", I do not recall a single folktale, story or urban myth where a ghost did anything more than scare people.
    I know of several stories in which people claim "spirits" killed either directly or indirectly (made people sick, drove them to suicide, possessed someone to commit a murder, made them go crazy to the point they killed, caused fatal accidents). Are these incidents true, who knows (many I have serious doubts about), but I am aware that alledged incidents have occurred.
    Last edited by Celgress; 08-10-2020 at 11:18 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I know of several stories in which people claim "spirits" killed either directly or indirectly (made people sick, drove them to suicide, possessed someone to commit a murder, made them go crazy to the point they killed, caused fatal accidents). Are these incidents true, who knows (many I have serious doubts about), but I am aware that alledged incidents have occurred.
    I always felt those stories were just people trying to find explanations for depression, schizophrenia and anxiety attacks.

    Remember that before viruses and bacteria were discovered, evil spirits were often blamed for infectious diseases as well.
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  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    ....And how is curtailing your life to avoid imaginary beings "playing it safe". Should I buy a unicorn detector on Amazon to avoid having my nipple pierced? (Legends of Tomorrow reference)
    Okay, if you are right and they (spirits) don't exist you have nothing to fear but if you are wrong, well, you just might have something to fear. All I'm saying is to exercise caution is best in any potentially hazardous situation.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #100
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    I always felt those stories were just people trying to find explanations for depression, schizophrenia and anxiety attacks.

    Remember that before viruses and bacteria were discovered, evil spirits were often blamed for infectious diseases as well.
    Maybe so, but these are modern examples (mostly post-Second World War). The ones I'm talking about anyway.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #101
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Coming to the conclusion that something doesn't happen or doesn't exist simply because it has not been PROVEN to happen or exist does not sound logical to me.

    So if 1 person saw a ghost, but can't prove that they saw a ghost to five scientists, those five scientists will agree that ghosts don't exist because there was no proof? Those scientists will only say ghosts exist if THEY themselves all saw the same ghost?
    That is not how science works. The scientist will remain agnostic until objective and verifiable evidence can be produced. The ones making the claims are the ones who need to produce the evidence. What reason is there to accept something without evidence? What things do you decide to accept, and which disbelieve? Ghosts, Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Aliens on Earth, Demons, Djinns? Without evidence you are just making subjective decisions.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    The power of the mind must be considered too.

    There is a famous story in Anthropological circles about the death of an African tribesman who was notoriously lazy. He enjoyed sleeping in a shady spot underneath the local granary every afternoon when the weather was hot rather than working. One day he was sleeping there when the granary collapsed due to termite damage to one of the support beams. The unlucky tribesman died instantly. A visiting Anthropologist soon discovered that every member of the tribe believed the man's death was the result of the spirits "punishing" the lazy man for, well, being lazy. He could not convince them otherwise. He said "it was an accident caused by the termites" ah but they answered "why did the accident occur at the time it did?" thus killing the lazy man. He could not convince them that the lazy man slept there most days so such a thing was bound to happen to the lazy man rather than another.
    Last edited by Celgress; 08-10-2020 at 11:37 AM.
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  13. #103
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    That is not how science works. The scientist will remain agnostic until objective and verifiable evidence can be produced. The ones making the claims are the ones who need to produce the evidence. What reason is there to accept something without evidence? What things do you decide to accept, and which disbelieve? Ghosts, Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Aliens on Earth, Demons, Djinns? Without evidence you are just making subjective decisions.
    And, again, that's why I have a problem with the scientific method of coming to conclusions. Because I think those scientists are ALSO making subjective decisions, because they think ghosts DO NOT exist because no proof was given. But again, just because no proof was given or could be given DOES NOT automatically mean ghosts don't exist.

    I feel like we're just going around in circles at this point. From what I've heard of how scientists reach their conclusions, I do not agree with them at all. I don't know what else to say about that at this point.
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  14. #104
    eXpat Odd Rödney's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as ghosts, not in the real world. But they're abundant in fiction and mythology, if you're looking for them you'll only find them there.
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  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    And, again, that's why I have a problem with the scientific method of coming to conclusions. Because I think those scientists are ALSO making subjective decisions, because they think ghosts DO NOT exist because no proof was given. But again, just because no proof was given or could be given DOES NOT automatically mean ghosts don't exist.

    I feel like we're just going around in circles at this point. From what I've heard of how scientists reach their conclusions, I do not agree with them at all. I don't know what else to say about that at this point.
    You really don't understand the scientific method.
    You have made up your mind that Ghosts exists, and we are the ones who are closed minded because we ask for evidence.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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