Should DC Continuity Be More Like Pre Flashpoint?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

2. Fair enough - however largely the discussion that some stories are famous for their continuity enabled ramifications still doesn't quite fit how comics and audiences work today. For that reason I still contend good stories trump strict adherence to continuity.

But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a continuity. And honestly, I don't know if I buy that argument that continuity-enabled ramifications don't fit the way audiences work today. I mean, pretty much any franchise is made popular not because the characters are just "kewl" but because of the lore behind the characters. Batman isn't just a guy who dresses up in a bat-suit without a past. That's just an idea, not a character. The character has been through events and storylines that have defined who he is as a character and his world around him: Year One, Joker's Five-Way Revenge, Death in the Family, Knightfall, No Man's Land, Fugitive, etc., etc., etc. These are all the stories that contribute to a mythos that contribute to a franchise. That's as true today as it was 50/60/70 years ago.

3. Yes, but you can still create popular characters without resorting to needing continuity. Carrie Kelly and Harley Quinn for example. Plus the fact that these characters can't and in my opinion shouldn't grow old and retire or die means eventually all that mythos gets squeezed into an impossibly short time - I'm sorry but Batman just shouldn't be in his 50s to me.

Well, not really. Because, while Harley Quinn and Carrie Kelly may not have been created in the main DC continuity, they were still products of continuity. They were born out of the continuities of their respective worlds: the DCAU for Harley and the Dark Knight Returns continuity for Carrie. Carrie's story doesn't make sense without the set up of DKR. She doesn't make sense as a character without that world around her, where Batman has long retired and Gotham has turned into a cesspool. The same thing goes for Harley. And it should also say something how Harley's popularity spurred them to bring her into the main continuity, but at the same time, DCAU Harley is not the same as main DCU Harley. Those are two different characters and the realities of the DCU have made Harley evolve into who she is today.

Plus, even if you don't think Bruce should be north of 50, that doesn't mean he should be in his 20s either. Like, honestly, I don't buy a Bruce Wayne in his 20s. The maturity, authority, and reputation the character demands requires him to be in his late 30s at least. You don't build up a reputation as "the goddamn Batman" when you're like 25. You have that reputation when you have some years under your belt.

[Timothy Hunter]

But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a continuity. And honestly, I don't know if I buy that argument that continuity-enabled ramifications don't fit the way audiences work today. I mean, pretty much any franchise is made popular not because the characters are just "kewl" but because of the lore behind the characters. Batman isn't just a guy who dresses up in a bat-suit without a past. That's just an idea, not a character. The character has been through events and storylines that have defined who he is as a character and his world around him: Year One, Joker's Five-Way Revenge, Death in the Family, Knightfall, No Man's Land, Fugitive, etc., etc., etc. These are all the stories that contribute to a mythos that contribute to a franchise. That's as true today as it was 50/60/70 years ago.



Well, not really. Because Harley Quinn and Carrie Kelly may not have been created in the main DC continuity, but they were still products of continuity. They were born out of the continuities of their respective worlds: the DCAU for Harley and the Dark Knight Returns continuity for Carrie. Carrie's story doesn't make sense without the set up of DKR. She doesn't make sense as a character without that world around her, where Batman has long retired and Gotham has turned into a cesspool. The same thing goes for Harley. And it should also say something how Harley's popularity spurred them to bring her into the main continuity, but at the same time, DCAU Harley is not the same as main DCU Harley. Those are two different characters and the realities of the DCU have made Harley evolve into who she is today.

Plus, even if you don't think Bruce should be north of 50, that doesn't mean he should be in his 20s either. Like, honestly, I don't buy a Bruce Wayne in his 20s. The maturity, authority, and reputation the character requires demands him to be in his late 30s at least. You don't build up a reputation as "the goddamn Batman" when you're like 25. You have that reputation when you have some years under your belt.

I agree. A character's history transforms them into something more than intellectual property. It's the difference between Walter White and Hello Kitty.

[SiegePerilous02]

Wally also wouldn't have ever been The Flash and wouldn't even be Wally so I don't think you should be using Pre-COIE as a selling point for Wally. Or basically the entire Flash franchise which was essentially rebooted to Pre-COIE with the New 52, it just kept dead mom. Dead mom is never, ever going away.

The reason HiC sucks is because of Wally's entire post-COIE history. You ruin the character just as badly by your premise.

Not really, because pre-COIE Wally was certainly not in a worse place than he is currently. He's so thoroughly fucked now and removed from what made him great in the Waid/Johns days, that a hypothetical scenario where we cut back to COIE never happening (which nobody realistically really expects to happen here) wouldn't be a worse fate than what we have for him and the rest of the Titans now. It'd be nice if DC would restore his full history while still being able to avoid the pitfalls of the post-COIE era with other properties, but they show no signs of doing it anyway. Plus all those older stories are still in print.

Some people just like pre-COIE better. Barry and Wally were just quick examples that maybe weren't the best, as the Flash mythos isn't a priority for me personally (I could take or leave either one in the role and I'm fine, as long as they are written well- which New 52 and HiC are not). But other properties have trends from that era that I'd happily see gotten rid of, namely Superman and Batman. And I agree with Sacred that overall pre-COIE is less of a rotten corpse than post-COIE is overall at this point. I think it was (narratively, if not in sales) in a better place when it ended than when Flashpoint acted as a mercy killing to the later era.

[Dred]

Not really, because pre-COIE Wally was certainly not in a worse place than he is currently. He's so thoroughly fucked now and removed from what made him great in the Waid/Johns days, that a hypothetical scenario where we cut back to COIE never happening (which nobody realistically really expects to happen here) wouldn't be a worse fate than what we have for him and the rest of the Titans now. It'd be nice if DC would restore his full history while still being able to avoid the pitfalls of the post-COIE era with other properties, but they show no signs of doing it anyway. Plus all those older stories are still in print.

Some people just like pre-COIE better. Barry and Wally were just quick examples that maybe weren't the best, as the Flash mythos isn't a priority for me personally (I could take or leave either one in the role and I'm fine, as long as they are written well- which New 52 and HiC are not). But other properties have trends from that era that I'd happily see gotten rid of, namely Superman and Batman. And I agree with Sacred that overall pre-COIE is less of a rotten corpse than post-COIE is overall at this point. I think it was (narratively, if not in sales) in a better place when it ended than when Flashpoint acted as a mercy killing to the later era.

Pre-COIE Wally isn't Wally. Pretending that wiping away his history is some saving grace is honestly so ridiculous to me. That's literally what they did in the New 52 and people were just as incensed then. It was horrible then and it'd be horrible now. You know where Wally was pre-COIE? Not a hero anymore. Completely written out of all comics. Retired. COIE literally saved Wally West as a character from fading into pointless obscurity. It was possibly the worst example you could've given because everything that defines the character to his fans in any significant way is Post-Crisis. Before that the most you have is Teen Titans fans and people who thought he was alright as a sidekick (but probably prefer Wallace these days). And let me tell you, they would not make Wally Kid Flash again if they did a reboot. They're not erasing a black character for a white one, for good reason.

They did COIE because, narratively, they were in a giant mess of nonsense. COIE wasn't done because everything was great. Pretending it was would be the same as pretending Pre-Flashpoint didn't have it's fair share of problems -- delusional.

If you prefer that status quo then good on you, but don't pretend it's because things were less complicated and messy back then. Half of COIE's purpose was to trim down the absolutely absurd, messy contradictory continuity DC had been struggling to get in line for years. It was every bit the "mercy killing" (This is a terrible thing to call either, to be honest) that Flashpoint was. If not more so because Flashpoint was strung together at the last second because they didn't really know they needed or were going to do a reboot when the decision was made. COIE was planned in advance because they'd known for YEARS things were a terrible mess. Also, harkening back to my original statement with Wallace and Wally, the other gigantic, terrible hole in the idea of seriously rebooting back to Pre-COIE is you're performing a representation massacre. You are defaulting to a DC that is so devoid of characters of non-white, non-straight background that you might as well dig your own grave for how badly it that would go over. It'd be almost as racist and sexist and anti-LGBTQ as Flashpoint was, but now there's actually a presence of mind to address it.

[TheCape]

The last Pre-Crisis Wally (when he was important anyway) was Marv Wolfman's Wally, i'm sure that we don't need to see that again

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The more continuity that's available to creators to use, the better. I don't think building walls around old continuity that people still love is something that works. You don't need to be mired in the past, but I don't want these characters forgetting foundational moments of their history that made them into who they are today.

For instance, a Wally West who never took over for his dead uncle as The Flash and surpassed him in understanding the true nature of their speed is not really a Wally West who I have much interest in. That character is built upon that old continuity. Without it, he's just a name and costume.

[SiegePerilous02]

Pre-COIE Wally isn't Wally. Pretending that wiping away his history is some saving grace is honestly so ridiculous to me. That's literally what they did in the New 52 and people were just as incensed then. It was horrible then and it'd be horrible now. You know where Wally was pre-COIE? Not a hero anymore. Completely written out of all comics. Retired. COIE literally saved Wally West as a character from fading into pointless obscurity. It was possibly the worst example you could've given because everything that defines the character to his fans in any significant way is Post-Crisis. Before that the most you have is Teen Titans fans and people who thought he was alright as a sidekick (but probably prefer Wallace these days). And let me tell you, they would not make Wally Kid Flash again if they did a reboot. They're not erasing a black character for a white one, for good reason.

They did COIE because, narratively, they were in a giant mess of nonsense. COIE wasn't done because everything was great. Pretending it was would be the same as pretending Pre-Flashpoint didn't have it's fair share of problems -- delusional.

If you prefer that status quo then good on you, but don't pretend it's because things were less complicated and messy back then. Half of COIE's purpose was to trim down the absolutely absurd, messy contradictory continuity DC had been struggling to get in line for years. It was every bit the "mercy killing" (This is a terrible thing to call either, to be honest) that Flashpoint was. If not more so because Flashpoint was strung together at the last second because they didn't really know they needed or were going to do a reboot when the decision was made. COIE was planned in advance because they'd known for YEARS things were a terrible mess. Also, harkening back to my original statement with Wallace and Wally, the other gigantic, terrible hole in the idea of seriously rebooting back to Pre-COIE is you're performing a representation massacre. You are defaulting to a DC that is so devoid of characters of non-white, non-straight background that you might as well dig your own grave for how badly it that would go over. It'd be almost as racist and sexist and anti-LGBTQ as Flashpoint was, but now there's actually a presence of mind to address it.

You don't really have to take every stated preference for any era other than post-COIE as a personal affront. None of us here have the power to make this happen, so relax.

And I take issue with the bolded. That's the company line, but really the nonsensical mess of continuity happened after COIE, not before. COIE is called DC"s original sin for a reason, it is the root cause of DC's modern continuity problems. The multiverse was used as a scapegoat when in reality they needed something very big and visible to attract the attention of Marvel fans. NTT, Moore's Swamp Thing and Superman stories, Legion, etc. proved that they just needed good writers and the lore they had would provide the material they needed. The issue was never with the continuity or the lore, it was the talent they had. They needed to dig themselves out of a hole ASAP and COIE saved the company at the time, but in hindsight it caused just as many problems as it (allegedly) solved. Just a casual glance at DC history proves this. They've never had a completely 100% coherent continuity, they'd been making this up as they went along, but they adjusted it with little tweaks here and there before that point. COIE was the big signal that everything could be chucked/altered all at once, it's immersion breaking and signals that none of this stuff has to matter in the long run, because it can altered on a grand scale on the company's whim. Yeah in one particular instance it saved Wally, but the aftershocks royally screwed up the continuity of say Superman (and the domino effect this had on the Legion and Supergirl) and Wonder Woman (and the domino effect this had on her JL history and most infamously Donna Troy/the Titans). The issues with Hawkman didn't exist before COIE. We didn't have the almost annual Infinite Crises, Flashpoints, Zero Hours, Final Crises, etc. before COIE. I don't see how anyone can say pre-COIE was more nonsensical than what came after with a straight face, because it simply wasn't. We even have posters on this board that said it was easy to follow compared to what came after. Screwing up DC continuity so they could get rid of Superbaby and Comet the Superhorse so Marvel fans could take them seriously (the real reason) hardly seems worth it.

The lack of diversity is a much more valid reason for not doing it than any perceived continuity confusion. Even then, I think a lot of post-COIE characters could exist in a pre-COIE setup with little issue. Nothing about Earth-1 Superman and his history could prevent Steel or Kon from existing.

[Korath]

Regarding DC Continuity, JLO made quite clear that the Emerald Twilight still happened, if it was ever in doubt. I'm not too knowledgeable about the GL mythos.

[Dred]

You don't really have to take every stated preference for any era other than post-COIE as a personal affront. None of us here have the power to make this happen, so relax.

And I take issue with the bolded. That's the company line, but really the nonsensical mess of continuity happened after COIE, not before. COIE is called DC"s original sin for a reason, it is the root cause of DC's modern continuity problems. The multiverse was used as a scapegoat when in reality they needed something very big and visible to attract the attention of Marvel fans. NTT, Moore's Swamp Thing and Superman stories, Legion, etc. proved that they just needed good writers and the lore they had would provide the material they needed. The issue was never with the continuity or the lore, it was the talent they had. They needed to dig themselves out of a hole ASAP and COIE saved the company at the time, but in hindsight it caused just as many problems as it (allegedly) solved. Just a casual glance at DC history proves this. They've never had a completely 100% coherent continuity, they'd been making this up as they went along, but they adjusted it with little tweaks here and there before that point. COIE was the big signal that everything could be chucked/altered all at once, it's immersion breaking and signals that none of this stuff has to matter in the long run, because it can altered on a grand scale on the company's whim. Yeah in one particular instance it saved Wally, but the aftershocks royally screwed up the continuity of say Superman (and the domino effect this had on the Legion and Supergirl) and Wonder Woman (and the domino effect this had on her JL history and most infamously Donna Troy/the Titans). The issues with Hawkman didn't exist before COIE. We didn't have the almost annual Infinite Crises, Flashpoints, Zero Hours, Final Crises, etc. before COIE. I don't see how anyone can say pre-COIE was more nonsensical than what came after with a straight face, because it simply wasn't. We even have posters on this board that said it was easy to follow compared to what came after. Screwing up DC continuity so they could get rid of Superbaby and Comet the Superhorse so Marvel fans could take them seriously (the real reason) hardly seems worth it.

The lack of diversity is a much more valid reason for not doing it than any perceived continuity confusion. Even then, I think a lot of post-COIE characters could exist in a pre-COIE setup with little issue. Nothing about Earth-1 Superman and his history could prevent Steel or Kon from existing.

You posited your entire point as Pre-Flashpoint being a rotten corpse and Pre-COIE somehow being a delightful reprieve in comparison. It most certainly wasn't. It was the biggest continuity mess in comics history which is why they went ahead with the first major reboot. Which then normalized the future ones. I just don't get the dichotomy you're supposing. There are more retcons in silver age and bronze age storytelling than Post-COIE ever dreamed of because Post-COIE went to long format storytelling writing styles. There were less contradictory one offs all over the place retconning everything. It was only "easy to follow" if you didn't care to connect the stories throughout the series. And if that is your strategy then no continuity is really complicated.

If you think Superman's history was screwed up after COIE but not before then I don't know what to say. Superman's continuity being a backwards ass mess is one of the biggest reasons they did COIE. Same with Wonder Woman, which they admittedly sacrificed Donna Troy in the process of simplifying -- the reason why Donna Troy became a mess is because Wonder Woman was entirely simplified and so Donna had to no longer be really associated with Wonder Woman. Not like Donna Troy is a significant enough character for her fucked up continuity to matter. Heck it wasn't UNTIL Flashpoint that Wonder Woman's history became complicated and messy. Post-COIE Diana had a pretty simple, linear history.

I'm not sure how you're going to have your cake and eat it. Reboot to pre-COIE but also pick and choose some post-COIE characters. Despite many of those characters needing modern storylines to introduce them, so you're not actually rebooting to Pre-COIE.

I wonder about the actual storytelling mechanics you want to set up if you reboot to Pre-COIE. Because you are intentionally keeping decades worth of stories and baggage and context that most current readers haven't read (Very few people reading now are die hard silver age fans). I'm not sure how "rebooting" to the longest end point era in continuity simplifies or streamlines anything besides the sheer amount of character erasure. Which, I guess, would work but is also a problem.

A reboot would not get rid of the mass of events. The mass of events are for sales.

I don't mind someone preferring pre-COIE. Everyone's got their favorites. I just don't get how you think that was a simpler or easier time. It was only simpler in that it was so stupid keeping up with anything was futile. And obviously the really hard miss on Wally and basically any character who mattered in the 90s and beyond.

[SiegePerilous02]

You posited your entire point as Pre-Flashpoint being a rotten corpse and Pre-COIE somehow being a delightful reprieve in comparison. It most certainly wasn't. It was the biggest continuity mess in comics history which is why they went ahead with the first major reboot. Which then normalized the future ones. I just don't get the dichotomy you're supposing. There are more retcons in silver age and bronze age storytelling than Post-COIE ever dreamed of because Post-COIE went to long format storytelling writing styles. There were less contradictory one offs all over the place retconning everything. It was only "easy to follow" if you didn't care to connect the stories throughout the series. And if that is your strategy then no continuity is really complicated.

If you think Superman's history was screwed up after COIE but not before then I don't know what to say. Superman's continuity being a backwards ass mess is one of the biggest reasons they did COIE. Same with Wonder Woman, which they admittedly sacrificed Donna Troy in the process of simplifying -- the reason why Donna Troy became a mess is because Wonder Woman was entirely simplified and so Donna had to no longer be really associated with Wonder Woman. Not like Donna Troy is a significant enough character for her fucked up continuity to matter. Heck it wasn't UNTIL Flashpoint that Wonder Woman's history became complicated and messy. Post-COIE Diana had a pretty simple, linear history.

I'm not sure how you're going to have your cake and eat it. Reboot to pre-COIE but also pick and choose some post-COIE characters. Despite many of those characters needing modern storylines to introduce them, so you're not actually rebooting to Pre-COIE.

I wonder about the actual storytelling mechanics you want to set up if you reboot to Pre-COIE. Because you are intentionally keeping decades worth of stories and baggage and context that most current readers haven't read (Very few people reading now are die hard silver age fans). I'm not sure how "rebooting" to the longest end point era in continuity simplifies or streamlines anything besides the sheer amount of character erasure. Which, I guess, would work but is also a problem.

A reboot would not get rid of the mass of events. The mass of events are for sales.

I don't mind someone preferring pre-COIE. Everyone's got their favorites. I just don't get how you think that was a simpler or easier time. It was only simpler in that it was so stupid keeping up with anything was futile. And obviously the really hard miss on Wally and basically any character who mattered in the 90s and beyond.

Pre-COIE had plenty of tweaks throughout it, but it was done and there over a 50 year stretch instead of all at once. They were transitioning over to long form storytelling more or less by the Bronze Age. I have plenty of books from that period, they more or less had stuff figured out continuity wise even if the stories weren't always great. But then you still get stuff like Moore's Superman stories (better than most stuff that came afterward) that utilized existing continuity and still easily accessible to pick up and read. NTT was building off of established continuity, and was actually easy to understand until COIE happened. Then vital issues pertaining to Donna start making less sense within the same run. They were adopting even stricter continuity while at the same time screwing around with it.

Yes, I honestly do not view Superman's pre-COIE continuity as being worse than what came after and I don't view the post-COIE version of the character as being terribly complex or interesting. They ran out of ideas with him fairly quickly compared to the version that came before (they don't really know what to do with him after he's married). There were no Matrix Supergirls and continuity screw ups with the Legion, which later resulted in that property being a nightmare. Stuff like Supergirl, Kandor, Krypto, the Phantom Zone, etc. all had pretty straightforward explanations and if they were going out of style, they were easy to phase out (as all of them already were) than hitting the re-set button and pretending they never existed was. Resulting in the cluster fucks in bringing them back. Similarly, that while yes Wonder Woman as ever is the confusing outlier, the problem was compounded in the long run by doing COIE. There was some great stuff in her Perez run, but nothing of value was added that required a full chucking of everything that came before.

COIE happened before I was even born, and I got into this well within the post-COIE era. Which prompted me to read up on the actual histories of the characters, and my eyes glaze over every time I got to the Crisis point. Maybe it all seemed a great deal more confusing at the time, but that seems to be the typical strawman argument that people tout. Because actually looking at things, and reading some pre-COIE comics from briefly before that period, everything seems easier to follow before that point than after. Especially as DC tried to have it both ways by rebooting some parts (Superman, Wonder Woman), and not others (Titans, Legion, Batman) and not having the foresight to see that that would have problems. It wasn't a simple or easy time (looking at DC history, it's safe to say none of them are), but I can't wrap my head around how we're supposed to think what came after was easier. The truth of the matter is, they wanted to attract Marvel fans by being more "mature" and getting rid of the silly stuff from their past. The Multiverse was just an easy scapegoat, as the Multiple Earths weren't a difficult concept to wrap their heads around. They wanted to get rid of stuff like Krypto because Marvel fans wouldn't like something so kiddy. They wanted "sophisticated" stuff like a Marvel-style 80s soap opera where Barda is forced into a porno by Sleaze. Not realizing that that style has aged pretty terribly. It taught them the lesson that doing something big and stupid that gets attention will give them a big boost, regardless of any long term problems.

The larger thought experiment doesn't really work I agree, not without losing a lot any way we slice it. No reason to call someone "delusional" over it though. And that's why maybe embracing the Multiverse so they can tell stories in various eras/continuities would be good instead of reinforcing this whole "There Can Only Be One" mentality that results in fandom in-fighting. Post-COIE Wally could exist on one Earth with all his history intact, pre-COIE Wally could exist on the sidelines while Barry remains the Flash there, etc. Not realistic perhaps, but just an idea to kick around.

[Dred]

So your point is it's easier to follow if you...didn't follow the majority of it. Any one of story doesn't need a continuity tie in but once you get into a series and get referential that's where the mess is. There's a reason there were infinite Earths and no one knew what was what.

I said delusional by comparing Pre-COIE favorably to Pre-Flashpoint when it comes to continuity clutter. The sheer mass of comics Pre-COIE had in comparison dwarfs any hope Pre-Flashpoint had of ever being more complicated. The only solution was not caring about it and writing whatever, which made continuity even more asinine. That was the Silver-Bronze age motto. You were getting into problems where Batman and Superman had so many comics that they'd be in their 60s just by thinking of one comic as one day, lol. And they'd all contradict each other.

The funny thing about telling Pre-COIE stories is that was something that was around...after COIE. As a matter of fact, Flashpoint is what stopped that. We got tons of Year One specials, Year Zero, Brave and the Bold, etc etc in Post-COIE times that told stories in that timeframe. You never had to sacrifice all forward progression to tell stories from that era. They just had to be flashbacks. Which is the benefit of not hard rebooting like you're suggesting. It's why Flashpoint's hard reboot sucked. COIE at least had the decency to keep some things and, eventually, when they wanted to use more they retconned it back in. Which is the stage we're at with Post-Flashpoint now, I suppose. Retconning stuff back in.

The problem with the "multiverse" idea is that DC is built on the idea of a shared universe and there'd be one core universe where most of the stories are told, and that will be the one that matters. So you just choose the one you like. I'd prefer one that's modern and not from before I was born, carrying all the awful foibles of that era with it.

[SiegePerilous02]

So your point is it's easier to follow if you...didn't follow the majority of it. Any one of story doesn't need a continuity tie in but once you get into a series and get referential that's where the mess is. There's a reason there were infinite Earths and no one knew what was what.

I said delusional by comparing Pre-COIE favorably to Pre-Flashpoint when it comes to continuity clutter. The sheer mass of comics Pre-COIE had in comparison dwarfs any hope Pre-Flashpoint had of ever being more complicated. The only solution was not caring about it and writing whatever, which made continuity even more asinine. That was the Silver-Bronze age motto. You were getting into problems where Batman and Superman had so many comics that they'd be in their 60s just by thinking of one comic as one day, lol. And they'd all contradict each other.

The funny thing about telling Pre-COIE stories is that was something that was around...after COIE. As a matter of fact, Flashpoint is what stopped that. We got tons of Year One specials, Year Zero, Brave and the Bold, etc etc in Post-COIE times that told stories in that timeframe. You never had to sacrifice all forward progression to tell stories from that era. They just had to be flashbacks. Which is the benefit of not hard rebooting like you're suggesting. It's why Flashpoint's hard reboot sucked. COIE at least had the decency to keep some things and, eventually, when they wanted to use more they retconned it back in. Which is the stage we're at with Post-Flashpoint now, I suppose. Retconning stuff back in.

The problem with the "multiverse" idea is that DC is built on the idea of a shared universe and there'd be one core universe where most of the stories are told, and that will be the one that matters. So you just choose the one you like. I'd prefer one that's modern and not from before I was born, carrying all the awful foibles of that era with it.

I'm sorry, but the bolded seems a bit hypocritical when we're talking about certain characters like Superman. Can you cite specific broad examples about how his continuity was a mess? Because you say COIE didn't have to sacrifice anything to progress anything, but with Superman they pretty much chucked everything and replaced him with a different incarnation of the character whose mythos was downsized considerably. You can pretend it was the same guy but only if you squint at it and pretend Superboy, the Legion, Krypto, the Phantom Zone criminals, Supergirl and the Bottle City of Kandor weren't around. Which is kind of hard to do because they were all over the place. Much like that one Dr. Who episode written by Gaiman more or less said, you can notice an absence by the hole they left. And one you get into a series and get referential...did that pose much of a problem for "For the Man Who Has Everything," "Jungle Line" and the Phantom Zone mini? Those are easy to pick up and their broader references don't really contradict anything. The pre-Crisis Legion stories by Levitz were easy to understand since all you had to know was their connection to Superboy and Supergirl. Once they started building serialized stories referencing that older stuff and then suddenly Supergirl is erased from ever having existed, it gets stupid. Of course there were a lot of little odd contradictions that don't add up in all older stories, but nothing in the Super mythos pre-COIE is as infamous as those things they retconned out and then awkwardly tried to retcon back in. You say I'm in favor of hard re-booting, but then praise COIE as if it didn't do its fair share of hard rebooting in some circles. In fact, there inability to **** or get off the pot with rebooting or not was one of the problems that compounded the issues, one they repeated with Flashpoint. I don't think it's a coincidence that it's Batman of the Trinity who is the strongest IP of the three- among other reasons, he was the one impacted the least and got to keep most of his stuff.

The main issue with Superman and other classic heroes was being seen as outdated and not for the "sophisticated" older audience Marvel was catering to. So they Marvelized him by getting rid of the "silly" stuff (as if a lot of the stuff that came after was any less stupid). I really think you're overselling how confusing continuity was back then. We have some old(ish) timers on here who read the stuff back then, and they never indicate a confusing continuity was the issue, especially by the time they started to adopt more strict referential continuity in the 70s and early 80s. More that Marvel was destroying them because of more "adult" stories aimed at an older audience. It's no coincidence that NTT was popular because it was a Marvel-style book and they chose those two creators to Marvel-ize the DC universe. The audience they were hoping to attract likely didn't bother to read any DC books to learn about any continuity to be confused by.

And can you drop the "I choose the one that's modern" attitude please? It's comes across as rather rude and condescending. I think it goes without saying that preferring older takes on some characters isn't an automatic endorsement for all the less than progressive ideas that cropped up.

[Dred]

The most obvious one is something you already stated, how they had to split a bunch of stories into multiple Earths (notably Earth 1 and Earth 2) and you had to sit there and partition which comics were canon to which version of Superman. Because all the Superboy stuff obviously greatly contradicted tons of Superman stories. The multiverse was great but, for Superman, it was an excuse to waive off contradictory storytelling. They certainly got rid of all of that, much of which was good and it is a terrible shame we lost it, but that's why they got rid of it. Because it was a confusing mess. And when they wanted to reintroduce it we get stuff like, well, Infinite Crisis. Itself a kind of convoluted mess of continuity reintroduction for the sake of valuing those older stories. Same with Wonder Woman, how they had to gloss over her JSA situation (which, amusingly, got an easy fix later but a lot of people don't like that fix).

I'm not overselling anything. I will admit that there was less interest or worry about the cohesiveness of one story to another so it wasn't as big a deal as the continuity mishaps we have today are. Most of the mishaps we have today are a function of trying to undo "continuity clearing" retcons in the first place, hilariously.

My attitude is that I value modern stories enough that I would not want a reboot that scales us back to the 80s, which would be antithetical to nearly all modern storytelling. You would prefer the opposite, which would erase all the modern storytelling to go to a much older starting point and, ostensibly, start telling modern stories from there. But it would horribly lack in modern characters, which you admitted. I was stating why I disagree with you. And when I say "awful foibles" of that era I was alluding to our earlier part of the conversation where we both acknowledged that a reboot to pre-COIE would horrifically strip the franchise of representation. Doubly so since if we did it it would only be a matter of time before we get another Infinite Crisis or Rebirth or whatever where people try to bring back beloved stories from the trash can the reboot put them in.

Flashpoint 2 Electric Boogaloo isn't my ideal. Doubly so because I have no clue how you'd introduce a reboot that keeps only this 40 years worth of stories canon. How do you even convey that to the audience? A reboot, starting decades into the careers of all the heroes you want to focus on.

[ChangingStation]

The most obvious one is something you already stated, how they had to split a bunch of stories into multiple Earths (notably Earth 1 and Earth 2) and you had to sit there and partition which comics were canon to which version of Superman. Because all the Superboy stuff obviously greatly contradicted tons of Superman stories. The multiverse was great but, for Superman, it was an excuse to waive off contradictory storytelling. They certainly got rid of all of that, much of which was good and it is a terrible shame we lost it, but that's why they got rid of it. Because it was a confusing mess. And when they wanted to reintroduce it we get stuff like, well, Infinite Crisis. Itself a kind of convoluted mess of continuity reintroduction for the sake of valuing those older stories. Same with Wonder Woman, how they had to gloss over her JSA situation (which, amusingly, got an easy fix later but a lot of people don't like that fix).

I'm not overselling anything. I will admit that there was less interest or worry about the cohesiveness of one story to another so it wasn't as big a deal as the continuity mishaps we have today are. Most of the mishaps we have today are a function of trying to undo "continuity clearing" retcons in the first place, hilariously.

My attitude is that I value modern stories enough that I would not want a reboot that scales us back to the 80s, which would be antithetical to nearly all modern storytelling. You would prefer the opposite, which would erase all the modern storytelling to go to a much older starting point and, ostensibly, start telling modern stories from there. But it would horribly lack in modern characters, which you admitted. I was stating why I disagree with you. And when I say "awful foibles" of that era I was alluding to our earlier part of the conversation where we both acknowledged that a reboot to pre-COIE would horrifically strip the franchise of representation. Doubly so since if we did it it would only be a matter of time before we get another Infinite Crisis or Rebirth or whatever where people try to bring back beloved stories from the trash can the reboot put them in.

Flashpoint 2 Electric Boogaloo isn't my ideal. Doubly so because I have no clue how you'd introduce a reboot that keeps only this 40 years worth of stories canon. How do you even convey that to the audience? A reboot, starting decades into the careers of all the heroes you want to focus on.

Look, can we just agree that while things were a mess in pre-Flashpoint, there was enough really good stories written in the past of the Post-Crisis Era that things could be sorted out eventually ala what Marvel's got going on right now? Several actually good runs were cut short as a result of the New 52, in the name of a sales boost that wound up losing a lot of momentum for the same reason that the Pre Flashpoint era ended up in that state to begin with. A combination of severe editorial mandate, and questionable writers in some spots.

It was just more noticeable due to the erasure of prior continuity and the confusion about what was still canon, who still existed and basically what direction the company was going in.

Mercy killing or not, the Nu52 was NOT an improvement in several areas and alienated older fans.

[Dred]

I agree with you. Nothing I said really contradicts that point.