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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I was specifically talking about the last two years or so of the DC Lineup. Sales across the board were in the toilet werenít they? Thatís what I remember anyway.
    We pretty much have the same problem now. Arguably to a worse extent.

    By Didio's own account, people are reading older DC stuff anyway.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    What makes stories such as the Death of Gwen Stacy, A Death in the Family, and Crisis in Infinite Earths so highly regarded is they felt like there were real ramifications involved, not simply because they were good stories.
    At least "A Death in the Family" is not that good, and can think of many way better Batman stories that didn't had any ramifications.

    Appart from that I think for a consistent classical DCU you had probably to go back to before Infinite Crisis (ot maybe even a few years further back), the last years pre flashpoint were also not terrible good in this regard.

  3. #33
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    Just reboot and tell new stories. Make a clean break, otherwise it gets confusing, as well as retell stories, Knightfall would be great to be remade again - but do this very, very rarely.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I understand that mindset, but in my opinion, DC will never have a cohesive universe as they did Pre Flashpoint if they continue to haphazardly blend aspects of New Fifty Two and Pre New Fifty Two.

    You can't just lackadaisically claim events such as Scott Snyder's Batman, Geoff Johns' Justice League, and Jeff Lemire's Green Arrow are natural continuations of the DC Universe that was established in the aftermath of Crisis of Infinite Earths because they were never meant to in the first place. It's like saying that Tim Burton's Batman and Christopher Nolan's Batman were part of the same universe. You can cherry pick details here and there in order for it to almost make sense, but it will never be organic.

    Personally, I would return to the concept of Earth One and Earth Two. Earth One being Post Flashpoint, and Earth Two being Pre Flashpoint.

    Earth One will fully embrace the groundwork laid by the New Fifty Two, while Earth Two will more or less return to the 2011 status quo - - and going forward from there.
    I think the problem is seeking an organic continuity in a vast fictional world that has lasted this long with decades of stories at this point.

    A DC is long past an organic cohesive continuity.
    I don't have a problem enjoying the stories right now.

    Every time they try to go back and sort out continuity they make it worse while alienating a section of their readers.

    Forward not backwards.

    Stuff like Death in the family and Gwen's death landed the way they did due to the era and where the audience was at the time.

    There can still be ramifications with the current continuity.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-06-2020 at 04:57 AM.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Just reboot and tell new stories. Make a clean break, otherwise it gets confusing, as well as retell stories, Knightfall would be great to be remade again - but do this very, very rarely.
    Didn't we just get 2 Knightfall's in Rebirth?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Hey, if that's what it takes to get the good stories I'm all for it.


    When was the last time the long history of continuity had that weight to them? Since Crisis? Jason Todd, Barry Allen, Supergirl, Ted Kord, Superman all came back. Death doesn't stick, and if death can't stick, then the impact of death is ruined. And most of the stories you listed where continuity had weight was because someone died. And frankly death shouldn't stick. Do you think Alfred should stay buried? Hell no.

    There are no ramifications on that level, which removes the bite out of continuity. So good storytelling has to be the focus to make up for it.
    Yeah, because it's not like Jason's murder by Joker has had a big impact on his character development or on the Bat-family as a whole despite the fact that it's still referenced and alluded to over three decades later, right? I mean...seriously? Even you have to realize that what you've said here is a gross mischaracterization. Basically every example you mention here doesn't really prove your point when you apply scrutiny to the facts.

    Barry Allen's death resonated for years afterwards and gave us Wally West as the Flash and Wally West as the Flash is something still relevant today. Not to mention that Barry Allen being dead set the stage for one of the best Flash stories of all time: the Return of Barry Allen.

    For Supergirl and Ted Kord, the impact of their deaths were ruined because DC didn't take continuity seriously and rebooted/retconned them. But even in the case of Ted Kord, his death is what gave us Jaime Reyes, a fan-favorite character.

    And Superman was never going to be permanently dead. But the impact of the Death of Superman arc is huge, even if it only gave us Doomsday. But, as we know, it gave us a lot more than Doomsday. If not for that arc, we wouldn't have Cyborg Superman, Hal wouldn't have become Parallax setting the stage for like the next twenty or so years of Green Lantern continuity, etc.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Yes. Maybe DC's finally realizing that the New 52 has alienated us older readers and some of the things between COIE and New 52 actually worked which is why you're seeing most of it slowly coming back as if Doomsday Clock were any indication. Hope they keep this coming and some older readers just might come back.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    The Batman mythos makes no sense when you mix them. Didn't he get all the Robin's within 5 years or something? Also a lot of his new 52 stories contradict his pre-52 ones.

    A lot of other properties like Titans and Wonder Woman (good luck with this one) would make no sense either.

    To combine them, you would have to make changes within each particular story so they can fit.
    Batman mythos only works if Bruce is in his late 40s to mid 50s, it would easily explain how he has so many sidekicks and proteges.

    Titans needs a complete overhaul.

    WW is easy to fix, all of her problems come from a lack of consistency regarding the Amazon's and her supporting cast. Are the Amazon's an advanced, benevolent matriarchy or are they a society of barbarians who hate men? Something in between these two extremes? This changes between runs and story arcs within the same run.

    Also, place more focus on her villains that aren't Greek gods and aren't Cheetah or Giganta.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Didn't we just get 2 Knightfall's in Rebirth?
    Haven't read DC in years, just before Rebirth launched. How were they?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Haven't read DC in years, just before Rebirth launched. How were they?
    Terrible, one involved Bane and Batman's father trying to break him emotionally and psychologically while taking over Gotham, derailing his marriage to Catwoman and killing off Alfred.

    Not sure what the second one was.

  11. #41
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    How about DC just stops upending their own continuity every few years? use a sliding time scale like marvel does so we don't have to obsess about the JSA and did Wonder Woman inspire Wonder Girl, etc. and if DC decides they aren't happy with consequences of a particular event or story arc just quietly downplay them until folks have forgotten about them. And how about quit altering continuity for the whole universe just so you can come up with a convoluted in-universe explanation for why The LOSH or Krypto is back in existence. How about creating 'events' based on interesting story ideas, rather than as the comic equivalent of a rube goldberg device in order to accomplish editorial goals like bringing back Barry Allen.

    Granted, marvel has gone down this road to frequently as well in recent years. I guess relaunching the line does give a short term sales boost but it only seems to alienate readers in the long run and from what i can tell, as older readers give up on comics there aren't enough new readers coming in to replace them.

    Of course there is a little chicken-and-the-egg quality to all of this. Do DC fans tend to be more obsessive about continuity and thus the comics cater to that, or does DC's focus on correcting continuity tend to attract fans that prefer that, even if stories suffer as a result? I dunno.

  12. #42
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't know, if the mainline comics go to far into old continuity and aimed at just the hard core fan, then anyone trying to move from the Scholastic books to the main books will be put off - basically the whole one issue a month comics will die out with the hard core fan. I kind of want the medium to outlive us, which means continuity shouldn't be so great an obstacle for new fans coming in from the other kid and YA books that they say screw it leave it to the old men.
    You can still tell great accessible stories with decades of continuity behind them as long as the cart isn't leading the horse. The story comes first. It also helps that DC regularly freshens up their continuity, which also frees up creators from having to stick with outdated details from decades old stories.

    Just stick with a vague broad strokes continuity that includes the greatest hits that everyone knows and loves and proceed from there.

    And, from now on, spend less time focusing on the stories that are mostly about fixing continuity. Hopefully, Death Metal will reset DCU history in such a way that nobody has to worry about fixing it again for at least 10 years.

    But I know that's highly unlikely

  13. #43
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    It isn't, but it sure as heck seems like it though in recent years, doesn't it?
    It depends what you're reading.

  14. #44
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Yeah, because it's not like Jason's murder by Joker has had a big impact on his character development or on the Bat-family as a whole despite the fact that it's still referenced and alluded to over three decades later, right? I mean...seriously? Even you have to realize that what you've said here is a gross mischaracterization. Basically every example you mention here doesn't really prove your point when you apply scrutiny to the facts.

    Barry Allen's death resonated for years afterwards and gave us Wally West as the Flash and Wally West as the Flash is something still relevant today. Not to mention that Barry Allen being dead set the stage for one of the best Flash stories of all time: the Return of Barry Allen.

    For Supergirl and Ted Kord, the impact of their deaths were ruined because DC didn't take continuity seriously and rebooted/retconned them. But even in the case of Ted Kord, his death is what gave us Jaime Reyes, a fan-favorite character.

    And Superman was never going to be permanently dead. But the impact of the Death of Superman arc is huge, even if it only gave us Doomsday. But, as we know, it gave us a lot more than Doomsday. If not for that arc, we wouldn't have Cyborg Superman, Hal wouldn't have become Parallax setting the stage for like the next twenty or so years of Green Lantern continuity, etc.
    1. Your first paragraph really doesn't need to be dripping in sarcasm and condescension does it?

    2. I never meant to imply that those stories didn't still get referenced or didn't still matter to continuity, just that the biggest ramification of death no longer mattered to today's audience - if iconic deaths can't stick in this new era, you can't expect death to impress anyone now. So I never once said that it was all undone and whatever you think I meant, I only meant that because of those decisions it won't leave an impact when death happens in new stories.

    3. It doesn't matter that not respecting the characters ruined their deaths, them coming back to life was inevitable in modern comic books.

    And a lot of the impact you're talking about now is the new characters that sprung up - that can happen in good stories without relying on the death gimmick.

  15. #45
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    You can still tell great accessible stories with decades of continuity behind them as long as the cart isn't leading the horse. The story comes first. It also helps that DC regularly freshens up their continuity, which also frees up creators from having to stick with outdated details from decades old stories.

    Just stick with a vague broad strokes continuity that includes the greatest hits that everyone knows and loves and proceed from there.

    And, from now on, spend less time focusing on the stories that are mostly about fixing continuity. Hopefully, Death Metal will reset DCU history in such a way that nobody has to worry about fixing it again for at least 10 years.

    But I know that's highly unlikely
    That's what I was trying to suggest when I responded to you, because how you worded what came before did not sound like this. The earlier post gave the impression that continuity would be the big heavy convoluted focus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It depends what you're reading.
    Most people don't seem to be reading new stories that they like in continuity from the bulk of the posts talking about it...

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