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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    The prospect of DC returning to the pre Flashpoint continuity isn't all that unprecedented. In fact after Infinite Crisis, the Legion of Superheroes after more than a decade of reboots, saw the return of their original iteration before the Baxter series. At the time that was 22 years ago. Flashpoint was comparatively 9 years ago.
    A great deal of DC's fans were disgruntled with the company wide reboot and setting back the timeline less than 10 years would be a faster way of bringing back elements of the old DC Universe that fans miss.

    I'm not saying throw out the New 52 entirely, but those stories can be relegated to a seperate Earth.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 07-09-2020 at 07:07 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Batman can work in multiple continuities, but there's always a set of factors that define Batman and who he is. After all, you can't have Batman without the death of his parents, the years spent training, etc. The concept of Carrie Kelly is that she is the Robin who is inspired by the "old stories" about Batman, who has long disappeared, and seeks him out after he comes back on the scene. Without that setup, she is not the same character. If they made a version for the main DCU, she would just be a red-haired girl with glasses who shares the same name.

    When they imported Harley into the comics, they imported her entire arc from the animated series creators, that she was a psychiatrist corrupted by Joker. And now her recent emancipation from Joker, which took place in the comics, has been exported to the Harley Quinn animated series.
    Yes thats absolutely true and I said that also long time ago!!!

    The important stories are:
    -parents killed

    -him training and becoming Batman
    -him meeting Joker (Jokers Origin)
    -Dicks Origin
    -Dick becoming Nightwing
    -Jason and his death and return
    -Barbara Gordon paralyzed by the Joker
    -Knightfall
    -Cassandra Cain
    -Tim becoming Robin
    -Damian becoming Robin

    these are the "BONES" which have to STAY.....

    FOR SUPERMAN:
    -Origin (Krypton, land on Earth)
    -Raised by the Kents
    -wedding with Lois
    -Jons birth
    -Death of Superman and Reign of Supermen
    -Karas arrival on Earth
    -Conners death and return

    These are the "BONES" which have to stay...

    Its harder for Superman, because if you leave NEW KRYPTON in history it would logically big consequences for the whole world.

    If we look how REIGN OF SUPERMEN was displayed in Rebirth we see that its also possible to RESHAP a story (Conner was deleted from the event).

    Superman would be EASY, because you can only say that Jonathan was there while these stories happened and Conner acted independently for most time, so it would be no problem.

  3. #108
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Yes thats absolutely true and I said that also long time ago!!!

    The important stories are:
    -parents killed

    -him training and becoming Batman
    -him meeting Joker (Jokers Origin)
    -Dicks Origin
    -Dick becoming Nightwing
    -Jason and his death and return
    -Barbara Gordon paralyzed by the Joker
    -Knightfall
    -Cassandra Cain
    -Tim becoming Robin
    -Damian becoming Robin

    these are the "BONES" which have to STAY.....

    FOR SUPERMAN:
    -Origin (Krypton, land on Earth)
    -Raised by the Kents
    -wedding with Lois
    -Jons birth
    -Death of Superman and Reign of Supermen
    -Karas arrival on Earth
    -Conners death and return

    These are the "BONES" which have to stay...

    Its harder for Superman, because if you leave NEW KRYPTON in history it would logically big consequences for the whole world.

    If we look how REIGN OF SUPERMEN was displayed in Rebirth we see that its also possible to RESHAP a story (Conner was deleted from the event).

    Superman would be EASY, because you can only say that Jonathan was there while these stories happened and Conner acted independently for most time, so it would be no problem.
    I'd say there is no true one way origin. Anyone who knows the history of any character knows they can always be reimagined and revitalized... generally... time and time again batman and supermans origins and "defining" moments have changed and evolved to what they are now...

    The so called bones that must be there, as you define it werent there all at once. But grew and evolved over 70ish years of stories...

    Some creative writer could easily redfine batmans origin in 10 or 20 years, or cumulative stories could change it...

    Just takes one best selling book or international billion dollar movie to dramatically reshape how a character is perceived... even if you push back a young and impressionable new group of fans will latch on and soon your bare bones batman or superman is gone...

    These characters rapidly grow and change... there really are no rules...

    Miller proved that...

    Tim Burton proved he could have the joker be the killer of bruces parents, or totally reimagine the penguins origins, nolan and heath presented us with a dramatically different joker, Jokers and Batman are characteristically very differnet then the inception of there character... batman killed and used guns, now many feel his defining bare bones is that he doesnt kill or use guns...

    When it comes to fixtional characters all bets at off over a long enough period of time and a great writer redefining an established character...

    Its happened many times with many characters with in dc and just in general...

    Just cause you read a origin story in the 80s that defined the bare essentials to you... doesn't mean some kid in the 90s or 2020 doesnt have a very different idea what are the core essentials to a character...

    Not to say I dont like your list, cause it is a good list...
    Last edited by Menacer; 07-09-2020 at 11:15 PM.

  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Yes thats absolutely true and I said that also long time ago!!!

    The important stories are:
    -parents killed

    -him training and becoming Batman
    -him meeting Joker (Jokers Origin)
    -Dicks Origin
    -Dick becoming Nightwing
    -Jason and his death and return
    -Barbara Gordon paralyzed by the Joker
    -Knightfall
    -Cassandra Cain
    -Tim becoming Robin
    -Damian becoming Robin

    these are the "BONES" which have to STAY.....

    FOR SUPERMAN:
    -Origin (Krypton, land on Earth)
    -Raised by the Kents
    -wedding with Lois
    -Jons birth
    -Death of Superman and Reign of Supermen
    -Karas arrival on Earth
    -Conners death and return

    These are the "BONES" which have to stay...

    Its harder for Superman, because if you leave NEW KRYPTON in history it would logically big consequences for the whole world.

    If we look how REIGN OF SUPERMEN was displayed in Rebirth we see that its also possible to RESHAP a story (Conner was deleted from the event).

    Superman would be EASY, because you can only say that Jonathan was there while these stories happened and Conner acted independently for most time, so it would be no problem.
    I'm very curious if we could collectively arrive at a consensus on what these "bones" have to be for these characters and the universe (these are both very solid). Although the more I think about it, the more we just return to post-Crisis...

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I'm very curious if we could collectively arrive at a consensus on what these "bones" have to be for these characters and the universe (these are both very solid). Although the more I think about it, the more we just return to post-Crisis...
    There DOESNT need to be a consensus

    These are the bones...(I FORGOT the storyline in which Tims dad got killed, it needs to be included and SPOILERS introduction)
    Its really simple:

    You take
    -the ORIGINS of the characters (Batman,Nightwing,Jason,Tim,Damian,Spoiler,Azrael, Cassandra Cain)
    -Storylines in which something permanent happens to the characters (Death of Tims father, Knightfall, Killing Joke.....)
    -the storylines in which the characters join a team
    -the storylines in which a character changes Code-Name

    THESE are the BONES which have to stay, because otherwise you would COMPLETELY CHANGE everything.
    You need for every story and you need them also to develop other franchises:

    Without Dick as Robin/Nightwing there would be NO Titans
    Without Tim as Robin NO Young Justice/New Teen Titans


    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    I'd say there is no true one way origin. Anyone who knows the history of any character knows they can always be reimagined and revitalized... generally... time and time again batman and supermans origins and "defining" moments have changed and evolved to what they are now...

    The so called bones that must be there, as you define it werent there all at once. But grew and evolved over 70ish years of stories...

    Some creative writer could easily redfine batmans origin in 10 or 20 years, or cumulative stories could change it...

    Just takes one best selling book or international billion dollar movie to dramatically reshape how a character is perceived... even if you push back a young and impressionable new group of fans will latch on and soon your bare bones batman or superman is gone...

    These characters rapidly grow and change... there really are no rules...

    Miller proved that...

    Tim Burton proved he could have the joker be the killer of bruces parents, or totally reimagine the penguins origins, nolan and heath presented us with a dramatically different joker, Jokers and Batman are characteristically very differnet then the inception of there character... batman killed and used guns, now many feel his defining bare bones is that he doesnt kill or use guys...

    When it comes to fixtional characters all bets at off over a long enough period of time and a great writer redefining an established character...

    Its happened many times with many characters with in dc and just in general...

    Just cause you read a origin story in the 80s that defined the bare essentials to you... doesn't mean some kid in the 90s or 2020 doesnt have a very different idea what are the core essentials to a character...

    Not to say I dont like your list, cause it is a good list...
    It DOESNT MATTER which origin you take...
    All the Origins have the same result:
    Bruce becomes Batman....
    You DONT NEED MORE!!

    You can just say: after the death of my parents I travelled around the world and studied Martial Arts and learned how to drive etc. etc. etc.

    If you write a Batman Comic it doesnt matter if Bruce went to Japan to train Karate first, then to China etc. or if he trained in USA with this master etc.
    The only thing which matters is that he trained and became Batman...the rest are details which you can fill in if they become important...

    The BONES are ESSENTIAL stories which you can leave out, because they would change the current STATUS QUO.

    -Batmans Origin is important, because otherwise he doesnt become Batman
    -Dicks Origin is important because otherwise there would be (possibly) NO ROBIN in the whole DC Universe
    etc. etc.

    ACTION COMICS 977 did it with SUPERMAN

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    There DOESNT need to be a consensus

    These are the bones...(I FORGOT the storyline in which Tims dad got killed, it needs to be included and SPOILERS introduction)
    Its really simple:
    Identity Crisis

    So to sum it for the Bat fam

    Bruce's origin be it Who Am I How I Came to Be, Batman Year One, Zero Year, Secret Origins or a mix of everything
    Traveling the world, be it Zero Year back up stories
    Returning to Gotham be it Who Am I How I Came to Be, Batman Year One, Zero Year, Secret Origins or a mix of everything
    Rise of The Criminally Insane be it The Man Who Laughs, Monster Men, Long Halloween, and many others

    Dick Grayson Origin be it Detective Comics #38, New 52 #0, Robin Year One, Dark Victory or a mix of those

    World's Finest
    Enter Batwoman and Bat-Girl

    Justice League Origin
    Teen Titans Origin be it Teen Titans Year One... you know the drill

    Barbara Gordon Origin

    Dick Grayson went to college
    The arrival of Ra's and Talia al Ghul

    Jason Todd Origin
    New Teen Titans

    Enter Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya

    Nightwing Origin
    The Killing Joke
    A Death in The Family

    A Lonely Place of Dying
    Huntress Origin
    Oracle Origin
    Stephanie Brown Origin
    Young Justice Origin
    Azrael Origin
    Knightfall

    No Man's Land
    Cassandra Cain Origin

    Hush
    Identity Crisis
    Under The Red Hood

    Damian Wayne Origin
    The Black Glove and RIP
    Final Crisis
    Batman and Robin Reborn
    Red Robin Origin
    Stephanie Brown Batgirl
    Gotham City Sirens
    The Return of Bruce Wayne

    Batman Incorporated
    Talia died
    Kathy Kane returns - Spyral revealed

    Barbara Gordon Batgirl Return

    The Court of Owls revealed
    Robin RIP
    Grayson Agent of Spyral
    Batgirl of Burnside

    Enter Duke Thomas
    Talia and Damian resurrected

    Teen Titans Damian and Super Sons
    Dark Nights Metal

    Rules of Engagement
    City of Bane - Year of The Villain - Hell Arisen
    Pennyworth RIP

    Death Metal

    Honestly, most of it works, thanks to the Batfam story retains most of its continuity. The only thing I don't know is when Harley should enter the picture, but if we go by BTAS, it should be around when Dick was in high school.

    Ah... the big one is whether Bludhaven should be nuked or not but they did bring it back
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 07-10-2020 at 12:13 AM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    ...Alfred. I think. As far as I remember Alfred didn't become the butler from Bruce's childhood until post Crisis, which then affect how he becomes a father figure. Golden and Silver Age he came after Dick.

    Selina. The boat and the street.

    I don't remember if there are things more significant than that...

    Setting that aside, I maintain that as long as they make stories reliant on continuity, stories that require you to read the books before the current one, or character development based on what happened before, then continuity will be important.

    How much of it is important is another matter, but we shouldn't have to explain to anyone that "things didn't happen the way it was written"
    But that's what I meant by "mythos-defining." I don't think anyone would argue that the buffoonish "detective" that Alfred was in the Golden Age is more iconic than the dutiful butler, lifelong confidant, and father figure to Bruce that he has been for the past several decades. Though, it is worth noting that before Crisis came around, Alfred had already abandoned the comedic sidekick role he'd had in the past and was given his backstory as a former spy and adept fighter and had fully known that Bruce was Batman for many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    I expect Zero Year to stay.
    Zero Year's already been retconned out. They've been referring to Year One as the origin again for a while now.

  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I was speaking of the opposite, how splitting things into 'multiple' Earths just leads to one shriveling and dying because it's not the focus. Earth 2 from the New 52 as the obvious example. There'd be no sustained content and you'd just end up with the one pre-coie Earth and it's significant lack of, well, everything significantly lacking in the 80s and prior.
    And this is the fandom and writer mentality that needs to be broken, though realistically any chance to do it if we're relying only on Wednesday Warriors to keep this business afloat has probably come and by. I agree that it is too entrenched at this point, but I don't view that as a good thing. The belief that "canon" stories (in a canon that has always had a foundation built on sand) matter more than "imaginary stories" (literally all of them are imaginary) regardless of how bad they are or not and how good the non-canon stories might be has always been silly. Especially when you remember that DC's most respected books and evergreen sellers like TDKR, All-Star Superman, Watchmen and the Sandman are either removed from the main canon or on the very fringes of it. And the IPs bring in more money through other means (movies, books, YA graphic novels) than the main canon of the comics does.

    Earth 2 isn't a perfect example. Yes it was on another Earth, but it also didn't star the classic versions of the Golden Age/Earth-2 characters and made controversial changes to them, before switching gears to focus on yet other versions of Batman and Superman, causing it to be rejected by fans. It being on another Earth doesn't strike me as one of the main reasons it was rejected based on fandom interactions I had, more that Alan was gay now and didn't have his kids among other things. Had we gotten an Earth-2 with the classic JSA and their kids and it was written well, it may have done better. The JSA is a niche IP compared to a lot of the others with a devoted fanbase that would probably follow it if it had a creative direction they liked, and it's not as if DC hasn't proven they are willing to ignore the JSA even when they are on the main Earth. If we got an Earth-2 with a recognizable JSA and it failed due to being on a separate Earth, that'd be different. We don't have that as an actual example though. Meanwhile, they historically had been able to sustain 2 ongoing books even while on Earth-2 in pre-COIE, and they didn't do so hot immediately following COIE.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    But that's what I meant by "mythos-defining." I don't think anyone would argue that the buffoonish "detective" that Alfred was in the Golden Age is more iconic than the dutiful butler, lifelong confidant, and father figure to Bruce that he has been for the past several decades. Though, it is worth noting that before Crisis came around, Alfred had already abandoned the comedic sidekick role he'd had in the past and was given his backstory as a former spy and adept fighter and had fully known that Bruce was Batman for many years.



    Zero Year's already been retconned out. They've been referring to Year One as the origin again for a while now.
    Wallys possible reality contains Zero Year. Anything goes now and Tom King isn't as powerful anymore.

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Wallys possible reality contains Zero Year. Anything goes now and Tom King isn't as powerful anymore.
    Reconfirming again, Wally's reality is him picking and choosing right?

    So it's not one long timeline consisting Earth 1, 2, Crisis, New Earth, Flashpoint, then Prime Earth?

    Wally is picking and choosing from that one long timeline that he wants to place in his new timeline?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Wallys possible reality contains Zero Year. Anything goes now and Tom King isn't as powerful anymore.
    Are you talking about this page right here?



    Because I'm actually not seeing Zero Year mentioned.

    However, there is still this from literally this past week's issue of Batman. And this is not King. This is Tynion, one of Snyder's former students, seemingly eschewing Zero Year in favor of Year One.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Are you talking about this page right here?



    Because I'm actually not seeing Zero Year mentioned.

    However, there is still this from literally this past week's issue of Batman. And this is not King. This is Tynion, one of Snyder's former students, seemingly eschewing Zero Year in favor of Year One.
    I think he meant this page, it’s from Wally attempting to fix continuity. The top middle image is of Batman fighting the red hood gang from Zero Year.


    C7A72F9A-E276-4CA1-AD84-699038D86EA1.jpg
    Last edited by sifighter; 07-11-2020 at 06:04 PM.
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I think he meant this page, it’s from Wally attempting to fix continuity. The top middle image is of Batman fighting the red hood gang from Zero Year.


    C7A72F9A-E276-4CA1-AD84-699038D86EA1.jpg
    Yeah, but even then, I don't know how authoritative that is. For one, it's been contradicted by other things and secondly, the context of the scene is that Wally is going through things and deciding what he wants in canon. So, by that logic, he could just as easily be looking at Zero Year and not choosing it.

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Yeah, but even then, I don't know how authoritative that is. For one, it's been contradicted by other things and secondly, the context of the scene is that Wally is going through things and deciding what he wants in canon. So, by that logic, he could just as easily be looking at Zero Year and not choosing it.
    Well we won’t really know because Batman who laughs stopped him before he succeeded. But you are right at this time we are only seeing panels of events that have occurred with Wally’s dialogue, so who knows what he decided. But taking into account I think that Wally did want a pre-flashpoint-ish timeline but he knew he had to be careful. I mean it effects him personally when it comes Wallace, he can fix the timeline exactly as it was but then he risks erasing his own cousin. Pretty sure Aunt Iris isn’t going to be happy if he makes that decision.

    I mean it’s kind of the problem I think DC has if they just straight up return to pre-flashpoint is that you lose new characters who now exist or remove characters who have returned because of the new 52 like Barbara Gordon Batgirl and Ted Kord Blue Beetle. If not characters what about stories that they still reference and have impacts on the dc universe. Certain concessions have to be made that parts of the new 52 history have to stay and somehow merge with older continuity the best it can.
    Last edited by sifighter; 07-12-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Reconfirming again, Wally's reality is him picking and choosing right?

    So it's not one long timeline consisting Earth 1, 2, Crisis, New Earth, Flashpoint, then Prime Earth?

    Wally is picking and choosing from that one long timeline that he wants to place in his new timeline?
    It's him deleting stuff that can't match, theres already many inconsistencies in the current broken canon.

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