Should DC Continuity Be More Like Pre Flashpoint?

[HandofPrometheus]

The Batman mythos makes no sense when you mix them. Didn't he get all the Robin's within 5 years or something? Also a lot of his new 52 stories contradict his pre-52 ones.

A lot of other properties like Titans and Wonder Woman (good luck with this one) would make no sense either.

To combine them, you would have to make changes within each particular story so they can fit.

[Timothy Hunter]

Hey, if that's what it takes to get the good stories I'm all for it.


When was the last time the long history of continuity had that weight to them? Since Crisis? Jason Todd, Barry Allen, Supergirl, Ted Kord, Superman all came back. Death doesn't stick, and if death can't stick, then the impact of death is ruined. And most of the stories you listed where continuity had weight was because someone died. And frankly death shouldn't stick. Do you think Alfred should stay buried? Hell no.

There are no ramifications on that level, which removes the bite out of continuity. So good storytelling has to be the focus to make up for it.

I never said the stories I mentioned had permanent ramifications, I only stated that they were held in high regard because they were PERCEIVED as having long lasting effects.

[blunt_eastwood]

Why didn't they just stick with the ending of DDC which stated that there's an Earth for every continuity? I don't understand what the hell is going on with DC.

[Timothy Hunter]

No because a lot of the Pre-Flashpoint stuff is terrible, people have just forgotten or let nostalgia blind them.

Superfamily was suffering under the implosion of the New Krypton status quo.

WW had the godawful Amazons Attack! event and got a mini reboot with Odyssey

Flash was pretty weak for a while, Barry’s return didn’t help there

JL was awful, Robinson’s term was a disaster

Pretty much the only ones doing well were, surprise, surprise, Batman and GL, which is why those two didn’t reboot.

And it’s too late to go back at this point, it’s been almost 10 years since the reboot. Like it or not the only way is forward now.

My argument isn't that I think post Flashpoint is bad and pre Flashpoint is superior. There were a lot of great things to come out of the New Fifty Two. In fact Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman is probably one of my favorite takes on the character, but that doesn't mean it in any way syncs up with what came before.

DC had the wrong mindset for Rebirth, you can't force the New Fifty Two into becoming like the "classic" DC Universe.

[Vakanai]

I never said the stories I mentioned had permanent ramifications, I only stated that they were held in high regard because they were PERCEIVED as having long lasting effects.

Yes, but my point is that you can no longer achieve anything like that anymore. Doesn't matter what the continuity is, because we the audience will no longer perceive such actions the same way anymore. So if the perception can no longer be made to work in the same way, the continuity can no longer be used for such great ramification storytelling. So why not just focus on good stories then over continuity?

[Frontier]

Hey, if that's what it takes to get the good stories I'm all for it..

I mean, I'm all for good stories, I just don't think a standalone nature has to be an absolute barometer for good stories.

No because a lot of the Pre-Flashpoint stuff is terrible, people have just forgotten or let nostalgia blind them.

Superfamily was suffering under the implosion of the New Krypton status quo.

WW had the godawful Amazons Attack! event and got a mini reboot with Odyssey

Flash was pretty weak for a while, Barry’s return didn’t help there

JL was awful, Robinson’s term was a disaster

Pretty much the only ones doing well were, surprise, surprise, Batman and GL, which is why those two didn’t reboot.

And it’s too late to go back at this point, it’s been almost 10 years since the reboot. Like it or not the only way is forward now.

At least as long as we acknowledge this was all late Post-Crisis and not say that the majority of Post-Crisis as a whole was terrible.

[Rod G]

Two words:


NO SIR.

[Vakanai]

I mean, I'm all for good stories, I just don't think a standalone nature has to be an absolute barometer for good stories.

It isn't, but it sure as heck seems like it though in recent years, doesn't it?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think, with the focus clearly shifting towards more stand alone continuity light one-shots and miniseries aimed for the Scholastic market that makes way than the monthly comics are, the books aimed at the hardcore fans should encompass as much old continuity as possible. Let them be the torch bearers for the mainline continuity that's been bouncing around since Detective Comics #1. Keep Superman and Batman (and their respective supporting casts) relatively youngish, but with enough years on them that you can have multiple generations of sidekicks and legacies begun by Wonder Woman and the JSA all the way back to the late 1930s.

Meanwhile, you can get books like Superman Smashes The Klan and the Earth One books carrying on the tradition of stuff like The Dark Knight and All-Star Superman that don't have to fit into anything the main DCU monthly books are.

Just tell great stories for many different kinds of stories, basically.

The Multiverse and Metaverse will roll the best of it all up together into one giant whole.

[Timothy Hunter]

I think, with the focus clearly shifting towards more stand alone continuity light one-shots and miniseries aimed for the Scholastic market that makes way than the monthly comics are, the books aimed at the hardcore fans should encompass as much old continuity as possible. Let them be the torch bearers for the mainline continuity that's been bouncing around since Detective Comics #1. Keep Superman and Batman (and their respective supporting casts) relatively youngish, but with enough years on them that you can have multiple generations of sidekicks and legacies begun by Wonder Woman and the JSA all the way back to the late 1930s.

Meanwhile, you can get books like Superman Smashes The Klan and the Earth One books carrying on the tradition of stuff like The Dark Knight and All-Star Superman that don't have to fit into anything the main DCU monthly books are.

Just tell great stories for many different kinds of stories, basically.

The Multiverse and Metaverse will roll the best of it all up together into one giant whole.

I agree with this in large, except keeping characters such as Batman and Superman eternally young, but I know I'm in the minority.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I agree with this in large, except keeping Batman and Superman eternally young, but I know I'm in the minority.

I would love if they had a regularly appearing Earth-2 where we could get that without pidgeon-holing the mainline Supes and Bats casts as middle-aged to senior citizens, but I'm more than happy to have them simply be guys with very, very lengthy careers that somehow all took place about "15 years ago" that looks suspiciously like the late 1930s, but with modern technology.

[Vakanai]

I think, with the focus clearly shifting towards more stand alone continuity light one-shots and miniseries aimed for the Scholastic market that makes way than the monthly comics are, the books aimed at the hardcore fans should encompass as much old continuity as possible. Let them be the torch bearers for the mainline continuity that's been bouncing around since Detective Comics #1. Keep Superman and Batman (and their respective supporting casts) relatively youngish, but with enough years on them that you can have multiple generations of sidekicks and legacies begun by Wonder Woman and the JSA all the way back to the late 1930s.

Meanwhile, you can get books like Superman Smashes The Klan and the Earth One books carrying on the tradition of stuff like The Dark Knight and All-Star Superman that don't have to fit into anything the main DCU monthly books are.

Just tell great stories for many different kinds of stories, basically.

The Multiverse and Metaverse will roll the best of it all up together into one giant whole.

I don't know, if the mainline comics go to far into old continuity and aimed at just the hard core fan, then anyone trying to move from the Scholastic books to the main books will be put off - basically the whole one issue a month comics will die out with the hard core fan. I kind of want the medium to outlive us, which means continuity shouldn't be so great an obstacle for new fans coming in from the other kid and YA books that they say screw it leave it to the old men.

[Vordan]

I mean, I'm all for good stories, I just don't think a standalone nature has to be an absolute barometer for good stories.

At least as long as we acknowledge this was all late Post-Crisis and not say that the majority of Post-Crisis as a whole was terrible.

Yeah I was specifically talking about the last two years or so of the DC Lineup. Sales across the board were in the toilet weren’t they? That’s what I remember anyway.

[batnbreakfast]

I can understand the mindset of good stories trumping continuity. However one of the key ingredients to having a good story is for it have weight, and for it to have weight they have to have a sense of mythos. What makes stories such as the Death of Gwen Stacy, A Death in the Family, and Crisis in Infinite Earths so highly regarded is they felt like there were real ramifications involved, not simply because they were good stories.

Stories in universes such as DC and Marvel lose their impact because writers ignore the past whenever it's convenient to them.

That was possible back THEN. Now its not. Readership has changed, writers have. People did grow up on reading other stories (often worse ones IMHO). You'd have to change people first to go back to the writing you want.

[Rod G]

Personally, I would return to the concept of Earth One and Earth Two. Earth One being Post Flashpoint, and Earth Two being Pre Flashpoint.

Earth One will fully embrace the groundwork laid by the New Fifty Two, while Earth Two will more or less return to the 2011 status quo - - and going forward from there.

Interesting suggestion, Timothy Hunter.