Mary Elizabeth "Betty/Bette" Kane Appreciation 2020 (Bat-Girl/Flamebird/Hawkfire

[Restingvoice]

That would be really weird, if Babs was supposed to be in the 28-35 age range whilst Kate is supposed to be around 27, Batgirl being older than Batwoman just seems odd.

The first time I found out about Kate before reading comics I thought she's younger than Barbara because Barbara looks like she's in the late twenties, early thirties, and it's not weird to me because I imagine Kathy as Bruce's Batwoman while Kate is the next-gen Batwoman for Dick's Batman. This was before they're made cousin, of course, and I thought it was a retcon that Babs was made younger while Kate's older.

[Tsukiakari1203]

The first time I found out about Kate before reading comics I thought she's younger than Barbara because Barbara looks like she's in the late twenties, early thirties, and it's not weird to me because I imagine Kathy as Bruce's Batwoman while Kate is the next-gen Batwoman for Dick's Batman. This was before they're made cousin, of course, and I thought it was a retcon that Babs was made younger while Kate's older.

Kate should be Bruce's age

[Tsukiakari1203]

The first time I found out about Kate before reading comics I thought she's younger than Barbara because Barbara looks like she's in the late twenties, early thirties, and it's not weird to me because I imagine Kathy as Bruce's Batwoman while Kate is the next-gen Batwoman for Dick's Batman. This was before they're made cousin, of course, and I thought it was a retcon that Babs was made younger while Kate's older.

In my head Kathy is at most 7 years older than Kate

[Oberon]

In my head Bette is at most 2 years younger than Dick. Nobody cares about the West Point stuff, militrary Bette does not work. I wish they'd restore her going to UCLA to become a doctor

"What's bugging Flamebird?" - a semi mystery! Bette has left West Point and no one knows where she bailed to. She went back to UCLA, if defiance of Kate or anyone's wishes - but the point of the story, is in 'standing up' to her personal ideals, she gains respect in Kate or other's eyes.

Because we all know she is not really like Kate. And not every awesome 'best-est-est' crimefighter has to be trained in the army. She must have received some training by Batman in the silver age.

[Oberon]

Kate should be Bruce's age

Are not more than a year younger.

[Oberon]

In my head Kathy is at most 7 years older than Kate

I think I heard that for Morrison, who 'reinvent' the first Batwoman, in a way, felt that Kathy was, at least until much later, Bruce's greatest love/love of his life. But she was about 10 years older than him (and about 10 or more younger than Bruce's Uncle, who Kathy was a sort of trophy wife, and 2nd wife I think)

[Aahz]

That would be really weird, if Babs was supposed to be in the 28-35 age range whilst Kate is supposed to be around 27, Batgirl being older than Batwoman just seems odd.

If you go by pre Flashpoint they would be pretty close in age, Kate was iirc 32 arround the time, and Barbara (based on Dicks age) roughly 29 or 30 (and Bruce would actually needed to be around 40 for the ages of the rest of the Batfamily to make sense).

[Bat-Meal]

If you go by pre Flashpoint they would be pretty close in age, Kate was iirc 32 arround the time, and Barbara (based on Dicks age) roughly 29 or 30 (and Bruce would actually needed to be around 40 for the ages of the rest of the Batfamily to make sense).

That's still 2 or 3 years older, which works. If you have 'the Girl' older than 'the Woman' it seems silly though.

[Artemisfanboy]

If you go by pre Flashpoint they would be pretty close in age, Kate was iirc 32 arround the time, and Barbara (based on Dicks age) roughly 29 or 30 (and Bruce would actually needed to be around 40 for the ages of the rest of the Batfamily to make sense).

So assuming pre-flashpoint ages are restored, and Bette is about Dicks age too, then she'd be retroactively aged out of going to West Point? Works for me.

"What's bugging Flamebird?" - a semi mystery! Bette has left West Point and no one knows where she bailed to. She went back to UCLA, if defiance of Kate or anyone's wishes - but the point of the story, is in 'standing up' to her personal ideals, she gains respect in Kate or other's eyes.

Because we all know she is not really like Kate. And not every awesome 'best-est-est' crimefighter has to be trained in the army. She must have received some training by Batman in the silver age.

This also sounds good to me too. I think it would be ok and in character for them to just have her drop out of West Point. I looked back at her last appearance in Detective #967 when she was having lunch with Kate, and Bette clearly wasn't happy at West Point and wanted to go back to being Flamebird (and I'm glad she said she wanted to be Flamebird in the issue, not Hawkfire). Kate just told her to stay in school, blew her off, and Bette just disappointedly conceded. From that scene I'm getting the feeling that Kate pressured her into going to West Point even though Bette knew it wasn't right for her and Bette let her self get pushed into it because she wanted Kate's approval. I wonder if Tynion may have had a plan to bring back Bette as Flamebird later if the run had ran it's planned length, or if he just included the scene as a filler? Maybe next time we see her she's already dropped out and can be back to being Flamebird, maybe having went back to California instead of Gotham to avoid confronting Kate.

[Oberon]

I know some fans are following some of these writers and artists on twitter or elsewhere. Maybe if they knew how many actual Flambird/Bette fans are out there, they'll eventually address this.

Yes, I sadly remember Bette's last appearance, lunch with Kate. I feel the same as you.

Maybe they don't like her because she's really too smart for them, but sadly younger and not as independent.

In Silver Age, she figures out Kathy is Batwoman 1.

Didn't that happen to Bette in/during the "Cutter" storyline? I never saw all of it, but is that not where Bette found out.

Or was it revealed to her. I don't see Kate doing that; she's nearly pissed at Bette in the first volume because she's not up to her standards.

But maybe they all resented that Bette could see through their disguises.

I do not recall if Betty/Bette knew the Dynamic Duo's true identity back in the silver age; possible? as she was eventually taken in, more or less.
In modern continuity, retcon or flashback, when did Kate/Bette truly know they were cousins to Bruce?

It seems there was a Batwoman annual? new 52 that had a story where the younger Kate and Bette are at some Wayne manor gathering. Seems fun and they all know each other

but I always felt it was not real, as this would have been Bruce's still bitter loner days? Or how to reconcile.

For what it's worth Betty/Bette is envisioned as the heir to "Batwoman".
Silver Age, there are at least 2 stories I think where Alfred imagines Bruce married to Kathy (see, they were once soulmates) and retiring their roles to Dick and Betty, to be the new Batman and Batwoman.

Somewhere in the 2000s, (think) there is one or maybe more TEEN Titans stories where Bette is also said to be a Batwoman in an alt/future, but also is involved with Tim Drake, who is younger, so I believe she was aged down from Dick around then, seems.

[Caivu]

This also sounds good to me too. I think it would be ok and in character for them to just have her drop out of West Point.

Maybe, but it's not a great look. Bette has a reputation of being a flake who doesn't commit to a lot of things, and it's not exactly unearned. It would also make Kate even more pissed at her.

From that scene I'm getting the feeling that Kate pressured her into going to West Point even though Bette knew it wasn't right for her and Bette let her self get pushed into it because she wanted Kate's approval.

I don't think so, for the same reason as above. Kate knows that Bette has a tendency to ping-pong around, and Bette's already dropped out of at least one school, so I don't think she would consider someone like that joining the Army to be very wise. She would definitely want Bette to commit to something besides vigilantism, but specifically pressuring her into West Point or even general military service doesn't sound like something she'd do. Bette making the connection of "West Point = Kate's approval" makes more sense and lines up better character-wise.

[Tsukiakari1203]

"What's bugging Flamebird?" - a semi mystery! Bette has left West Point and no one knows where she bailed to. She went back to UCLA, if defiance of Kate or anyone's wishes - but the point of the story, is in 'standing up' to her personal ideals, she gains respect in Kate or other's eyes.

Because we all know she is not really like Kate. And not every awesome 'best-est-est' crimefighter has to be trained in the army. She must have received some training by Batman in the silver age.

Bette did get training from Bruce and Kathy back then. I just want Hawkfire and the ensuing stuff swept under the rug and never mentioned again

[Tsukiakari1203]

I think I heard that for Morrison, who 'reinvent' the first Batwoman, in a way, felt that Kathy was, at least until much later, Bruce's greatest love/love of his life. But she was about 10 years older than him (and about 10 or more younger than Bruce's Uncle, who Kathy was a sort of trophy wife, and 2nd wife I think)

Kathy was not Nathan's second wife. Honestly Kathy could be ten years older than him. But I feel that'd be weird. So I say 7 at most.

[Tsukiakari1203]

So assuming pre-flashpoint ages are restored, and Bette is about Dicks age too, then she'd be retroactively aged out of going to West Point? Works for me.



This also sounds good to me too. I think it would be ok and in character for them to just have her drop out of West Point. I looked back at her last appearance in Detective #967 when she was having lunch with Kate, and Bette clearly wasn't happy at West Point and wanted to go back to being Flamebird (and I'm glad she said she wanted to be Flamebird in the issue, not Hawkfire). Kate just told her to stay in school, blew her off, and Bette just disappointedly conceded. From that scene I'm getting the feeling that Kate pressured her into going to West Point even though Bette knew it wasn't right for her and Bette let her self get pushed into it because she wanted Kate's approval. I wonder if Tynion may have had a plan to bring back Bette as Flamebird later if the run had ran it's planned length, or if he just included the scene as a filler? Maybe next time we see her she's already dropped out and can be back to being Flamebird, maybe having went back to California instead of Gotham to avoid confronting Kate.

I like this idea. Military isn't Bette at all. I can buy her dropping out

[Tsukiakari1203]

I know some fans are following some of these writers and artists on twitter or elsewhere. Maybe if they knew how many actual Flambird/Bette fans are out there, they'll eventually address this.

Yes, I sadly remember Bette's last appearance, lunch with Kate. I feel the same as you.

Maybe they don't like her because she's really too smart for them, but sadly younger and not as independent.

In Silver Age, she figures out Kathy is Batwoman 1.

Didn't that happen to Bette in/during the "Cutter" storyline? I never saw all of it, but is that not where Bette found out.

Or was it revealed to her. I don't see Kate doing that; she's nearly pissed at Bette in the first volume because she's not up to her standards.

But maybe they all resented that Bette could see through their disguises.

I do not recall if Betty/Bette knew the Dynamic Duo's true identity back in the silver age; possible? as she was eventually taken in, more or less.
In modern continuity, retcon or flashback, when did Kate/Bette truly know they were cousins to Bruce?

It seems there was a Batwoman annual? new 52 that had a story where the younger Kate and Bette are at some Wayne manor gathering. Seems fun and they all know each other

but I always felt it was not real, as this would have been Bruce's still bitter loner days? Or how to reconcile.

For what it's worth Betty/Bette is envisioned as the heir to "Batwoman".
Silver Age, there are at least 2 stories I think where Alfred imagines Bruce married to Kathy (see, they were once soulmates) and retiring their roles to Dick and Betty, to be the new Batman and Batwoman.

Somewhere in the 2000s, (think) there is one or maybe more TEEN Titans stories where Bette is also said to be a Batwoman in an alt/future, but also is involved with Tim Drake, who is younger, so I believe she was aged down from Dick around then, seems.

bette is one hundred percent the best choice to be the next Batwoman.