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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I'm not totally sure if that was "itching for an argument", but I wanted to say my opinion.

    I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to imply that not wanting new characters to come at the expense of existing characters is hypocritical. I totally agree that feeling that way isn't hypocritical.

    If fans just say they don't want their favorites were affected and they don't care what happens with new characters. That would just be honest and totally valid.

    However, many fans never say this directly, they say that new characters don't need recognizable identities to be succesful, while they will never allow their favorites to loss their recognizable identities. That attitude seems hypocritical (and tiresome) to me.


    PS: Now, we're done here.
    We need to be able to like posts.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    We need to be able to like posts.
    agreed. I do think Konja has a point though.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    We actually had that discussion here once and reached out to Rucka on Twitter. If I remember correctly, he said that Kate was originally supposed to be a modernization of Kathy Kane. There nothing definitive about this in the books but it was implicitly true until Morrison reintroduced Kathy with Batman Inc., retroactively making them two seperate characters. So from retrospect they are explicitly two separate characters and I'm sure that there is absolutely nothing to contradict that reading of it, but upon her introduction people would not have been mistaken for saying that she was in fact a modernization of Kathy Kane rather than a wholly new character.
    You're right and I apologize. She was intended as an homage but then that homage was canonically included. I see how Konja is more or less correct with Bat-girl and the shared history with Dick not quite happening, but in that case, an early 2000s story with Superman that I've referred to, seems to create a linkage, without much detail.

    I take these instances as retcons, but corrections or attempts to an overall continuity. This is where many may differ from me, because I don't want the stories and continuity of the Silver Age be deemed not true, dreams, etc.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    That was maybe... her step mother? Same name, possibly with C Cathy, I forget. Kate actually does not ever refer to the original Batwoman in her first series, which I suppose is/was consistent with her original premise (which I missed), but in Elegy and stories around that time, Cathy is Jacob's wife, 2nd. In earlier stories of Teen Titans, the ones with Gar and Bette, she mentions an Aunt Kathy and some consider that a shout out to the original, again without detail. Than, I think in the time around Elegy, Cathy is her aunt Cathy.

    Since I don't know this, Caviu or others: Is Elegy the first time that Bette appears in Batwoman's story or are there earlier actual on-panel stuff?

    Are there any other stories or speculation on why Rucka etc wanted Bette in that story line? My post feeling is he was going for a reverse dynamic duo, like Kate is a reverse Batman, to me. And that ultimately Bette may not have worked out at all . . . But who knows that/if?

  5. #65
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    It is even more complicated because (if I'm not mistaken) the flashbacks about Kathy's career hapenned in Batman Inc Pre-Flashpoint.

    Many events in Batman Inc Pre-Flashpoint were retconned for New52 (Catwoman knowing Batman identity, Barbara as Oracle, Stephanie as Batgirl, between others).

    That said, Kathy was mantained for Batman Inc Post Flaspoint, so her flashbacks maybe aren't retconned/changed.

    It was said at the time, that INC was written out of actual continuity but is intended to be correct, despite Flashpoint or not.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    You're right and I apologize. She was intended as an homage but then that homage was canonically included. I see how Konja is more or less correct with Bat-girl and the shared history with Dick not quite happening, but in that case, an early 2000s story with Superman that I've referred to, seems to create a linkage, without much detail.

    I take these instances as retcons, but corrections or attempts to an overall continuity. This is where many may differ from me, because I don't want the stories and continuity of the Silver Age be deemed not true, dreams, etc.
    The problem is that early 2000s story is Pre-Flashpoint.

    The current continuity of DC has so many retcons that is difficult to establish something.

    However, it is pretty difficult Bette time as Bat-Girl will return, because writers use Barbara when they want a Batgil/Robin duo in the past with Dick.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    It was said at the time, that INC was written out of actual continuity but is intended to be correct, despite Flashpoint or not.
    Batman Inc wasn't out of continuity.

    The first season of Batman Inc was in pre-Flashpoint continuity (even the last issue that happened after New52).

    However, the second season of Batman Inc was in Post-Flashpoint continuity. Morrison commented that changes in continuity wouldn't affect the story he wants to tell, but the changes will be there (like Batgirl having red hair instead of blond).


    That's why I mentioned the events in the first season of Batman Inc (like Bat-Girl cameo in a flashback) may don't apply to the current continuity.

    Not to mention that many writers just ignore Morrison references to old continuity.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-25-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I mean quite honestly I have no idea how Bette should get to Flamebird without either having previously connected to Dick or Superman as Bat-Girl. It's connection to Nightwing/Superman history shouldn't be left to coincidence. But the only way to have her meet them prior to taking it up really relies on her having a title (Bat-Girl) beforehand.

    The only alternative I could think of would be Dick suggesting the mantle to her and recruiting her as a partner/sidekick during the original NTT era. But they would have to go back and establish that with a good explanation
    Last edited by Pohzee; 09-25-2020 at 06:41 AM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Are there any other stories or speculation on why Rucka etc wanted Bette in that story line? My post feeling is he was going for a reverse dynamic duo, like Kate is a reverse Batman, to me. And that ultimately Bette may not have worked out at all . . . But who knows that/if?
    From what I can tell, she was included partially to rectify the issue of Kate being Bette's aunt:

    Rucka: “When we put [Batwoman] in 52 we did it in haste… it was in response to the [New York Times] thing… and consequently there were certain problems that had to be reconciled… like for her to be Betty Kane’s aunt… there has to be (a sibling relationship to Kate)… so they are now cousins... you’ll see Betty in #856.”
    Since Kate only has a sister, and that sister has no children, her initial relationship to Bette wouldn't have worked. Or at least that was the concern at the time.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I mean quite honestly I have no idea how Bette should get to Flamebird without either having previously connected to Dick or Superman as Bat-Girl. It's connection to Nightwing/Superman history shouldn't be left to coincidence. But the only way to have her meet them prior to taking it up really relies on her having a title (Bat-Girl) beforehand.

    The only alternative I could think of would be Dick suggesting the mantle to her and recruiting her as a partner/sidekick during the original NTT era. But they would have to go back and establish that with a good explanation
    I think Bat-Girl should be restored to continuity, hyphen and all

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    That was maybe... her step mother? Same name, possibly with C Cathy, I forget. Kate actually does not ever refer to the original Batwoman in her first series, which I suppose is/was consistent with her original premise (which I missed), but in Elegy and stories around that time, Cathy is Jacob's wife, 2nd. In earlier stories of Teen Titans, the ones with Gar and Bette, she mentions an Aunt Kathy and some consider that a shout out to the original, again without detail. Than, I think in the time around Elegy, Cathy is her aunt Cathy.

    Since I don't know this, Caviu or others: Is Elegy the first time that Bette appears in Batwoman's story or are there earlier actual on-panel stuff?

    Are there any other stories or speculation on why Rucka etc wanted Bette in that story line? My post feeling is he was going for a reverse dynamic duo, like Kate is a reverse Batman, to me. And that ultimately Bette may not have worked out at all . . . But who knows that/if?
    Jacob's second wife is named Catherine. In 52 which is pre-Flashpoint Kate is referred to as "Kathy" several times.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Thanks, this is clarifying, as to the creators point.

  13. #73
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    I think Bat-Girl should be restored to continuity, hyphen and all
    Maybe Morriosn's take/retcon is the best one. She is mostly just "some Bat-girl", to Dick's derision, but in her own mind, Bette is as she was portrayed in the Silver Age.

    so if Bruce, and other's Silver age adventures are imagined, exaggerated, influenced by drugs or substances . .

    this fits with Bette, ironically or not. In nearly explains the obsession with Robin, butt and all, from much later as Flamebird, '90s, Teen Titans.

    Much of this is her head canon. Yes, she is a superb athlete in general. Yes, she picked up more skills and some general fighting skills, with the mysterious 1st Batwoman.

    Although Kate learned her connection to Bruce later, it is possible that Bette knew it earlier though this memory could have ended up supressed (Bat Non-super hypnotism, the exposure to drugs in Prisoners of 3 Worlds/similar).

    Leaning towards her learning the Flamebird story and deep connection to Nightwing, when Superman might have been called in to help with her lingering effects to the hallucinogenic substances she, and the others were exposed to in that Silver Age story I mentioned. That looks like the right place and time, the memory was repressed of what she learned of Supes, Kandor, the Fortress, the FB/NW legend, but came out later. Ta-dah!

    Just need the that story.

  14. #74
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    Another veiled reference in the early 2000's(in addition to the aforementioned reference with her being inspired by Superman telling her the legend of the Kryptonian Nightwing and Flamebird) to Bette's original career as Bat-girl from Young Justice when she met the new Batgirl Cassandra Cain.
    batgirlhuh.JPG

    As said Grant Morrison's run reaffirmed Kathy and gave Bette a cameo as Bat-Girl of sorts.

    Really, if we're keeping the original Kathy Kane as Batwoman, I don't see why Bette's career as Batgirl should be excised. It's not any more intrusive than Kathy being the first Batwoman and as some have noted you could put all her appearances into and say her Bat-girl career lasted a single summer.

    Also I got into a discussion about the various character's ages at this point, and it's occurred to me that with the timeline being revised and if Dicks's generation has been retroactively aged up to their later twenties, Bette might have been aged out eligibility to attend West Point. The most recent issue of Batgirl implied Barbara is in the 28-35 age range. The age cutoff for admission to West Point is 23. If Dick and the rest of his generation Titans(including Bette who had her Titan membership mentioned in the New 52) are in the same area then she wouldn't have been eligible for admittance. So maybe next time she comes back we can just ignore her being sent to West Point or say after the timeline shifted she got kicked out for being too old if we need to in order to get her back in action as Flamebird.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    Another veiled reference in the early 2000's(in addition to the aforementioned reference with her being inspired by Superman telling her the legend of the Kryptonian Nightwing and Flamebird) to Bette's original career as Bat-girl from Young Justice when she met the new Batgirl Cassandra Cain.
    batgirlhuh.JPG

    As said Grant Morrison's run reaffirmed Kathy and gave Bette a cameo as Bat-Girl of sorts.

    Really, if we're keeping the original Kathy Kane as Batwoman, I don't see why Bette's career as Batgirl should be excised. It's not any more intrusive than Kathy being the first Batwoman and as some have noted you could put all her appearances into and say her Bat-girl career lasted a single summer.

    Also I got into a discussion about the various character's ages at this point, and it's occurred to me that with the timeline being revised and if Dicks's generation has been retroactively aged up to their later twenties, Bette might have been aged out eligibility to attend West Point. The most recent issue of Batgirl implied Barbara is in the 28-35 age range. The age cutoff for admission to West Point is 23. If Dick and the rest of his generation Titans(including Bette who had her Titan membership mentioned in the New 52) are in the same area then she wouldn't have been eligible for admittance. So maybe next time she comes back we can just ignore her being sent to West Point or say after the timeline shifted she got kicked out for being too old if we need to in order to get her back in action as Flamebird.
    I don't get why Bette's Bat-Girl tenure can't be back in continuity. Bette in my head is about 26 currently. Also we do not acknowledge military Bette, it made no sense for her

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