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  1. #196
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    Basically
    Roderick Kane and his wife Betsy had Nathan, Philip, Martha, Jacob, and an unnamed child. Nathan married Kathy Webb (born Katrina Netz), Philip didn't marry and died alone, Jacob married Gabrielle and had Kate and Beth, Gabi dies and he remarried Catherine Hamilton. Martha married Thomas Wayne and had Bruce. The unnamed child moved to Malibu, California and had Mary Elizabeth "Bette" Kane.
    I think a simple and elegant solution to the cousins thing is to make Bruce a 2nd cousin to both Bette and Kate, like this.

    Roderick had a brother who fathered Jacob, Phil and unnamed. But the brother died when they were infants or young

    and he adopted and raised those boys with Nathan and Martha. They're 'siblings' due to adoption

    but they're also first cousins.

    Children of first cousins, Marta > Bruce, Jacob > Kate, are 2nd cousins.
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  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I think a simple and elegant solution to the cousins thing is to make Bruce a 2nd cousin to both Bette and Kate, like this.

    Roderick had a brother who fathered Jacob, Phil and unnamed. But the brother died when they were infants or young

    and he adopted and raised those boys with Nathan and Martha. They're 'siblings' due to adoption

    but they're also first cousins.

    Children of first cousins, Marta > Bruce, Jacob > Kate, are 2nd cousins.
    I prefer them being first cousins but whatever
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

  3. #198
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Well, it seems to be one of the most mentioned things that cause dis belief or whatever.

    What is done is done, but actually, this could always be a twist, that someday Jacob finds out he was adopted and is really a cousin and brother to Martha.

    Essentially it wouldn't change the family relation ships, just create a little less closeness to Bruce.


    Which seems appropriate. He kept away from any other Waynes and Kanes for most of the story line. When they figure in, they're always distant/seeming to him.

    In practical idiom, it's less EWE if Bruce's 2nd cousin ends up dating his adult ward.
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  4. #199
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Which seems appropriate. He kept away from any other Waynes and Kanes for most of the story line. When they figure in, they're always distant/seeming to him.

    In practical idiom, it's less EWE if Bruce's 2nd cousin ends up dating his adult ward.
    I prefer them unrelated, as they originally were. I think everything works a lot better that way.

    First Kate was retconned related, which causes some problems itself (like them never mentioned before, switching Bruce to Jewish even though he never was and was occasionally shown Christian, and worst of all the custodial issues).

    Then Bette retconned into that (as post-COIE there was no Kate/Kathy) for her to be related to, and she was a hero long before Kate was.

    Of course, I also would not have Bette dating Bruce's adult ward. Teenage flirtation is fine (though, of course, the convoluted history of retcons makes that trickier), but there's zero reason for them to date as adults.

    I'd really like to see Bette developed independent of the Bat-fam. I understand Bat-brand (any established brand, but especially Bat) gives a boost, but the family is too crowded already, I don't think she slots in well without a re-write (which I'm totally open to, but haven't seen any ideas I liked as I really don't care for both a Kathy and Kate, especially both as Batwoman). I'm always trying to move the adult members of the family further away from Bruce, so certainly don't want Bette brought closer.

    Like Donna Troy, Better suffers from multiple, contradictory origins. Even worse, she's never had a time-of-fame as Donna did, never developed a single strong notion among the fanbase of what she should be. She was usually an adjacent-to-another-hero character, when she wasn't just a cameo or bit part. Like most heroes, she has different personalities in different eras by different writers. There are segments that want her to be two different, mutually contradictory things. She's not unique in that, either. But when you add all of them together, it's hard for her character to get a larger footing. I think her own space would help. I hate to suggest yet another origin, but I don't think any of hers do her any favors. I kinda wound up the same way with Donna in my head-canon-reboot. All new origin. Of course, that really is just further compounding the multiple-origin problem that already exists and making the character harder to work with. I just don't like any of her origins (same with Donna - great story with Diana and the fire, but it does not work chronologically, and that matters more to me).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-25-2020 at 06:57 AM.

  5. #200
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    A very good post and summation, Tzigone.

    My ultimate preference would be that Bette comes back in a new Batwoman title

    or the whole NW and FB as partners, with some past, but not a great one. Play into possible triangles, because comic non-super stuff does tend to be soap operetic. But I'd he okay if such a team up book just kept them as partners with their own outside interests.

    My guess would be DC just wants to lose the Flamebird thing as in 'connected to Nightwing' period. So that is masculist, in may opinion. Both concepts were created together, way back, have certainly been altered a lot, but for better or worse it has/had morphed into a pseudo Romeo and Juliet (the other couple before new 52)

    I'd give almost anything for a new great Batwoman bok with Bette as Flamebird.
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  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I prefer them unrelated, as they originally were. I think everything works a lot better that way.

    First Kate was retconned related, which causes some problems itself (like them never mentioned before, switching Bruce to Jewish even though he never was and was occasionally shown Christian, and worst of all the custodial issues).

    Then Bette retconned into that (as post-COIE there was no Kate/Kathy) for her to be related to, and she was a hero long before Kate was.

    Of course, I also would not have Bette dating Bruce's adult ward. Teenage flirtation is fine (though, of course, the convoluted history of retcons makes that trickier), but there's zero reason for them to date as adults.

    I'd really like to see Bette developed independent of the Bat-fam. I understand Bat-brand (any established brand, but especially Bat) gives a boost, but the family is too crowded already, I don't think she slots in well without a re-write (which I'm totally open to, but haven't seen any ideas I liked as I really don't care for both a Kathy and Kate, especially both as Batwoman). I'm always trying to move the adult members of the family further away from Bruce, so certainly don't want Bette brought closer.

    Like Donna Troy, Better suffers from multiple, contradictory origins. Even worse, she's never had a time-of-fame as Donna did, never developed a single strong notion among the fanbase of what she should be. She was usually an adjacent-to-another-hero character, when she wasn't just a cameo or bit part. Like most heroes, she has different personalities in different eras by different writers. There are segments that want her to be two different, mutually contradictory things. She's not unique in that, either. But when you add all of them together, it's hard for her character to get a larger footing. I think her own space would help. I hate to suggest yet another origin, but I don't think any of hers do her any favors. I kinda wound up the same way with Donna in my head-canon-reboot. All new origin. Of course, that really is just further compounding the multiple-origin problem that already exists and making the character harder to work with. I just don't like any of her origins (same with Donna - great story with Diana and the fire, but it does not work chronologically, and that matters more to me).
    i've always considered Bette more a Titans character or a Batwoman character. And I really like her classic origin, it works
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

  7. #202
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    What is her classic origin? The one with the first Batwoman? If so, how do you see the transition to Flamebird?

    Was Martha always, always, always a Kane? If so, than it was really always that Kate would be related to Bruce, Bette too.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    What is her classic origin? The one with the first Batwoman? If so, how do you see the transition to Flamebird?

    Was Martha always, always, always a Kane? If so, than it was really always that Kate would be related to Bruce, Bette too.
    Martha was an Arkham at one point I think.

    I'd keep the classic origin of her becoming Bat-Girl to help her aunt. I'd have her transition to Flamebird when she's 16. Kathy's dead and Bette gets herself emancipated and moves to LA. She becomes Flamebird because Kathy had taken her on a few missions with Clark and he'd told her the story of Nightwing and Flamebird. She starts Titans West. And starts going to UCLA
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

  9. #204
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    What is her classic origin? The one with the first Batwoman? If so, how do you see the transition to Flamebird?

    Was Martha always, always, always a Kane? If so, than it was really always that Kate would be related to Bruce, Bette too.
    No, I don't think she was. As far I can tell, the first instance where Martha was mentioned as Kane was in Batman Secret Files and Origins in 1997. So in an era when there was no Kathy or Kate Kane. Bette existed, but wasn't used much at the time. And Martha was the "sole heir to the Kane Chemical fortune" so definitely an only child. Timeline was rather wonky there. I haven't found an earlier reference, anyway. Do let me know if you do.

    And a last name would not make two people always related. So far as I'm aware Dinah Drake is unrelated to Tim Drake, and Kane is hardly a super rare name. Especially since the name comes from a Batman creator and could reasonably be expected to be used a lot in the property when people want to pay respects or have shoutouts.

    Martha was an Arkham at one point I think.
    I thought that was just in AU (Earth 1)?

    I'd keep the classic origin of her becoming Bat-Girl to help her aunt. I'd have her transition to Flamebird when she's 16. Kathy's dead and Bette gets herself emancipated and moves to LA
    But wasn't she just visiting her rich aunt, not living with her, during her original stories? No reason to turn her into an orphan. I'd really love to have her parents have names. And personalities. Good personalities, because I'm tired of crappy childhoods and bad parents for teen characters. Even some that had perfectly good parents to start with got their parents retconned to bad. Sometimes I feel like Jaime is all I have left for teen heroes living with two loving parents. And I'm not sure what's going on with him lately.

    She becomes Flamebird because Kathy had taken her on a few missions with Clark and he'd told her the story of Nightwing and Flamebird. She starts Titans West. And starts going to UCLA
    But she had nothing to do with Clark then. I know, I know, it's an excuse for the name.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-25-2020 at 05:16 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No, I don't think she was. As far I can tell, the first instance where Martha was mentioned as Kane was in Batman Secret Files and Origins in 1997. So in an era when there was no Kathy or Kate Kane. Bette existed, but wasn't used much at the time. And Martha was the "sole heir to the Kane Chemical fortune" so definitely an only child. Timeline was rather wonky there. I haven't found an earlier reference, anyway. Do let me know if you do.
    I didn't find anything about Kane Chemical on the DC wiki. I did discover that Ma and Pa Kent used to be named John and Mary Kent. Also that Martha's full name was Martha Hudson Clark at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And a last name would not make two people always related. So far as I'm aware Dinah Drake is unrelated to Tim Drake, and Kane is hardly a super rare name. Especially since the name comes from a Batman creator and could reasonably be expected to be used a lot in the property when people want to pay respects or have shoutouts.
    Eh, I still like them being related

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I thought that was just in AU (Earth 1)?
    It was an AU. I got things confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But wasn't she just visiting her rich aunt, not living with her, during her original stories? No reason to turn her into an orphan. I'd really love to have her parents have names. And personalities. Good personalities, because I'm tired of crappy childhoods and bad parents for teen characters. Even some that had perfectly good parents to start with got their parents retconned to bad. Sometimes I feel like Jaime is all I have left for teen heroes living with two loving parents. And I'm not sure what's going on with him lately.
    I actually think Bette having shitty parents works because it explains why she'd uproot her identity. I head canon that Bette found Kathy's "body". Also Bette seems to have moved in at some point. My explanation is that Betty lived with her during the summers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But she had nothing to do with Clark then. I know, I know, it's an excuse for the name.
    Actually I have two reasons for the Clark thing. 1, Kathy an him teamed up a few times. It's not unreasonable to think Betty tagged along a few times. 2, in an issue where he and Lois become Nightwing and Flamebird he mentions having told Dick and Bette the story.
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

  11. #206
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    First Kate was retconned related, which causes some problems itself (like them never mentioned before, switching Bruce to Jewish even though he never was and was occasionally shown Christian, and worst of all the custodial issues).
    Not a single one of those things are problems. Being Christian doesn't preclude someone from being Jewish as well, and the custody issue is extremely easy to "solve" by having Alfred be the one listed as guardian in the Waynes' wills. Even if he weren't, granting custody to the man who has helped raise that child from birth would be a no-brainer for any judge.

    (I still don't know why the custody issue is something people still get hung up on, TBH)
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  12. #207
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Also Bruce is still practicing Christianity in his childhood, following his father. He never practice Judaism.

    About the guardianship, that is what happened, they gave it to Alfred because they don't trust the Phillip Kane who want to have the right for Wayne Manor. The Manor is technically Bruce's, but as long as he's under the guardianship of any Kane, then any Kane also can use the Manor, including Philip until Bruce's of age, and he can get rid of Alfred any time. Giving the right to Alfred secures him, Bruce, and the Estate, while also explains why Alfred can't go home to take care of his wife and Julia.

  13. #208
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    I didn't find anything about Kane Chemical on the DC wiki. I did discover that Ma and Pa Kent used to be named John and Mary Kent. Also that Martha's full name was Martha Hudson Clark at some point.

    Eh, I still like them being related


    It was an AU. I got things confused


    I actually think Bette having shitty parents works because it explains why she'd uproot her identity. I head canon that Bette found Kathy's "body". Also Bette seems to have moved in at some point. My explanation is that Betty lived with her during the summers.



    Actually I have two reasons for the Clark thing. 1, Kathy an him teamed up a few times. It's not unreasonable to think Betty tagged along a few times. 2, in an issue where he and Lois become Nightwing and Flamebird he mentions having told Dick and Bette the story.
    I love the idea of Batwoman teaming with Superman, vaguely recall it, but sure I've never seen it. For what its worth, DC may have been looking for a breakout strong female character like Wonder Woman. This Batwoman didn't make it, but the idea that Betty/e could have tagged along is intriguing.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Kate and Bette being related to Bruce, I just think for credibility sake being 2nd cousins explains some of their distance overall. I had friendships with at least 3 of my 2nd cousins. My granddaughter did with my sister's grandson; they're 2nd cousins, and they too visited each other for a couple of summers.

    Comic books, like soap operas, are all ab out surprises and twists and things like connection. Every person with the same last name is more likely to be relations in both comics and soaps, so just go with it.

    Since Silver Age Bette/y is in place, than so is "3 Prisoners" where the original BatFamily was exposed to possible extraterresial substances. Who better would Batman contact, if he was stymied by Bette's recovery (my theory), than Clark? Hence the opportunity for both Dick and Bette to see Kandor and hear the story of NW and FB
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  14. #209
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Not a single one of those things are problems. Being Christian doesn't preclude someone from being Jewish as well, and the custody issue is extremely easy to "solve" by having Alfred be the one listed as guardian in the Waynes' wills. Even if he weren't, granting custody to the man who has helped raise that child from birth would be a no-brainer for any judge.

    (I still don't know why the custody issue is something people still get hung up on, TBH)
    Detroit, the huge melting pot of Northern cities has a large Jewish American population. Until recently I worked at the state's 2nd largest public library, in one of the Metro area's cities with a larger Jewish population. So I worked and knew, was friends with a number of Jewish folks, including several who converted to the religion and are raising their children, etc. Conversely I know several Jewish folks by birth/tradition, who have left the religion and have become Pagan, Wiccan, Heathen, etc. So I agree

    the religion thing is not defining in terms of Bruce's relationship with his cousins. I thought it was Kate's mom who was the main holder of Jewish identity and tradition , so it is easy to see that maybe that person was Jewish, but Jacob may not have been, originally and therefore Martha may not have been.
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  15. #210
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I actually think Bette having shitty parents works because it explains why she'd uproot her identity. I head canon that Bette found Kathy's "body". Also Bette seems to have moved in at some point. My explanation is that Betty lived with her during the summers.
    I don't see any need for her identity to be uprooted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    About the guardianship, that is what happened, they gave it to Alfred because they don't trust the Phillip Kane who want to have the right for Wayne Manor. The Manor is technically Bruce's, but as long as he's under the guardianship of any Kane, then any Kane also can use the Manor, including Philip until Bruce's of age, and he can get rid of Alfred any time. Giving the right to Alfred secures him, Bruce, and the Estate, while also explains why Alfred can't go home to take care of his wife and Julia.
    Which makes no sense. Why would they think Jacob would do what Phillip wants? Plus Phillip wasn't even established a Kane until New 52, well after Kate was created, I don't think (I don't think he actually existed in post-COIE, just in pre-COIE). Mind you, I'm also not happy about him being switched from a good guy to a bad guy. But I guess they had to make the bulk of the family evil to justify Alfred with custody.

    Comic books, like soap operas, are all ab out surprises and twists and things like connection. Every person with the same last name is more likely to be relations in both comics and soaps, so just go with it.
    I actually hate the "it's all connected" trope. I dislike lots of the retconned connections of comics. They make earlier stories not make sense. I've complained about it a couple times before, so it's not unique to Kate and Bette being related. I dislike it Court of Owls, Zoom and Barry's mom, making Barbara Minerva part of Diana's life before she was Cheetah, even Sinestro an Hal before he was a villain (and that one's super-popular, I know).

    edit: I also know Greg Rucka dislikes Kate being related to Bruce. Don't know what other writers feel. Or how long it took to establish them as related in the first place. Mind you, I disagree with GR on other things, and disagreeing with writers is totally fine.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-26-2020 at 04:57 AM.

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