Mary Elizabeth "Betty/Bette" Kane Appreciation 2020 (Bat-Girl/Flamebird/Hawkfire

[Bat-Meal]

Bette was already at West Point in the first issue of Rebirth Batwoman. It's the first mention of her being at West Point and all we get is "Bette called from West Point while you were out"

The entire process happened offpanel. There was no build up. Just she's now at west point.

And Bette did ask to join the Gotham Knight's as Flamebird in the the Detective issue where she had lunch with Kate. That's what we've been talking about as their last interaction. Kate refused her and blew her off saying "Stay in uniform, not in costume, and that's an order soldier."

Oh well, it was ages back that I read those comics. If Bette was already at West Point when she asks about the Gotham Knights that Kate would say no makes sense - since she was already enrolled in training.

I find it far more likely that the real 'encouragement' for her going to West Point would have been via Jacob, not Kate though.

I still say the real reason, to be meta, is that the writers just didn't want to use Bette because she wasn't one of their favourites.

[Artemisfanboy]

Nowhere. But Bette deciding something like that, thinking it will make Kate happy, is totally in line with her character. Kate pressuring Bette into military service is not in line with Kate's character. So the first is infinitely more likely.



Why not? I'm still not clear on what the reason for this is.

She never showed any interest in being a military officer or joining the military at all. Not even in the New 52 series. She was studying to become a Doctor in either LA or Gotham, a Tennis champion, and a superhero. A military lifestyle and career, and an officer one at that is a big shift. And it comes out of nowhere. In the first Issue of Rebirth Batwoman we're just told Bette called from West Point and that's it. Then next we see her in the Detective issue and she wants out. The only clear reason we're she has for attending with the evidence provided is Kate telling Bette she needed to get the same kind of training as her and Bette going along with it with it because she wanted Kate's approval. Which didn't seem to be working out.

Tynion was involved in writing both series by the way, so it's not like their are two conflicting writers ideas, here.

I can see a situation where Kate is telling Bette she "needs" the kind of training she has, the subject of Kate's training at West Point comes up, and Kate get caught up in the idea, thinking it'll be a good character building experience, that it'll keep Bette safe, and hoping that Bette would find military service more rewarding than vigilantism, and maybe also a little of trying to live vicariously through Bette, by getting Bette to have the military career she wasn't able to, without stopping to consider how Bette actually feels or what is right for her. And Bette, against her own feelings, let herself be pressured into giving it a try because of the aforementioned desire for approval.

I'm not going to lie. The primary goal of the story I'm brainstorming is to get Bette back in action as Flamebird, and her being at West Point is kind of seen as an obstacle. This is the Bette appreciation thread, and I'm putting her first when designing the story. It doesn't mean I don't care about Kate. I'm sorry if you feel I'm giving Kate a raw deal here. I understand your fear about the idea of Kate pressuring Bette as reflecting badly on Kate, but my goal isn't to shift the blame entirely off to her. Bette would still at fault for going along so far even to the point of actually attending instead of putting a stop to it much earlier before it got the point she has to drop out. I'm working with the characters as they currently are, including their flaws, and thinking of ways to move them forward.

As an actual storytelling device, West Point hasn't done anything for Bette and isn't likely to. All it's done is remove her from Kate's way and keep her from being active heroine. Bette being at West Point is more part of Kate's status quo, than it is actual status quo for Bette. A Flamebird solo oneshot, miniseries, or ongoing about her attending west point while trying to juggle it with being a heroine is highly unlikely in the current publishing environment and that would be the best chance of finding a way to make west point work for her. Her getting back into action in almost any other venue(Batwoman, Nightwing, a Batfamily title, Titans) will likely necessitate getting her out before she can be Flamebird.

[Artemisfanboy]

Oh well, it was ages back that I read those comics. If Bette was already at West Point when she asks about the Gotham Knights that Kate would say no makes sense - since she was already enrolled in training.

I find it far more likely that the real 'encouragement' for her going to West Point would have been via Jacob, not Kate though.

I still say the real reason, to be meta, is that the writers just didn't want to use Bette because she wasn't one of their favourites.

Jacob could work as a primary source of peer pressure in the idea just as well I suppose. Though I think Kate would still need to be involved to some degree.

And yeah, the West Point status does feel like it's meant to keep Bette out of the way.

[Caivu]

I can see a situation where Kate is telling Bette she "needs" the kind of training she has, the subject of Kate's training at West Point comes up, and Kate get caught up in the idea, thinking it'll be a good character building experience, that it'll keep Bette safe, and hoping that Bette would find military service more rewarding than vigilantism, and maybe also a little of trying to live vicariously through Bette, by getting Bette to have the military career she wasn't able to, without stopping to consider how Bette actually feels or what is right for her. And Bette, against her own feelings, let herself be pressured into giving it a try because of the aforementioned desire for approval.

Again, this runs up against the issue of: even if we assume Kate would think this way, what she would intend is not something that Bette can just do. Her acceptance into the Academy isn't up to either of them, so even if Kate wants for Bette to eventually abandon vigilantism in favor of military service, that'd be an inefficient way of going about it.

The bit I bolded is also an issue, because Kate has no need to live vicariously this way; being Batwoman, to her, means the same thing as her military service did, and she thinks of them as identical.

[Artemisfanboy]

Again, this runs up against the issue of: even if we assume Kate would think this way, what she would intend is not something that Bette can just do. Her acceptance into the Academy isn't up to either of them, so even if Kate wants for Bette to eventually abandon vigilantism in favor of military service, that'd be an inefficient way of going about it.

The bit I bolded is also an issue, because Kate has no need to live vicariously this way; being Batwoman, to her, means the same thing as her military service did, and she thinks of them as identical.

As previously acknowledged, yes , Kate is not on West Point's admissions board. But she could have pushed Betty to apply and to actually attend once Bette had been approved. It might not be "efficient" but her pressuring Bette to get military training isn't out of line with Bette saying Kate said she "needed the same kind of training as her".

It's one thing for Kate to say she considers vigilantism and military service are equal forms of public service, but there are still differences in those fields. With Kate it might be more of a subconscious thing where she doesn't realize at first it's a factor in her feelings and when she does she needs to come to terms with it. But the living vicariously isn't a necessary element per say. I listed other motivating factors that could've been going on.

You really seem opposed to any plan to get Bette out of West Point and back as Flamebird. Do you have any alternative pitches to get Bette back into action?

[Caivu]

You really seem opposed to any plan to get Bette out of West Point and back as Flamebird. Do you have any alternative pitches to get Bette back into action?

She graduates with a degree in kinesiology and is assigned to Presidio of Monterey in California, where she serves out her five years as a physical therapist. She re-establishes herself as Flamebird during that time and works in the local area, having to balance both that and her military service. All that put together would be an entirely different vibe than any other Gotham title. That's just the bones of the idea.

[Artemisfanboy]

She graduates with a degree in kinesiology and is assigned to Presidio of Monterey in California, where she serves out her five years as a physical therapist. She re-establishes herself as Flamebird during that time and works in the local area, having to balance both that and her military service. All that put together would be an entirely different vibe than any other Gotham title. That's just the bones of the idea.

Still don't see enough time passing in universe for her realistically graduate anytime soon. And I don't feel military is good fit for Betty. But I think we're going to have to just disagree on that topic. And I doubt Bette is realistically getting a title all to herself under any circumstance.

[Oberon]

Still don't see enough time passing in universe for her realistically graduate anytime soon. And I don't feel military is good fit for Betty. But I think we're going to have to just disagree on that topic. And I doubt Bette is realistically getting a title all to herself under any circumstance.

I agree with you. And yes, this is Bette's page.

No other character has had to jump such hoops and I really don't like having to read or consider how Kate supports this. To me, it only makes her look petty. Sorry about that, but I get it mostly from how she is being rationalized here.

No other characters have ever had to do this; it actually goes against the central idea of comic book heroes; they're mostly made by their circumstances, despite what other training or things happen.

Bette had more than paid her dues.

[Tsukiakari1203]

She never showed any interest in being a military officer or joining the military at all. Not even in the New 52 series. She was studying to become a Doctor in either LA or Gotham, a Tennis champion, and a superhero. A military lifestyle and career, and an officer one at that is a big shift. And it comes out of nowhere. In the first Issue of Rebirth Batwoman we're just told Bette called from West Point and that's it. Then next we see her in the Detective issue and she wants out. The only clear reason we're she has for attending with the evidence provided is Kate telling Bette she needed to get the same kind of training as her and Bette going along with it with it because she wanted Kate's approval. Which didn't seem to be working out.

Tynion was involved in writing both series by the way, so it's not like their are two conflicting writers ideas, here.

I can see a situation where Kate is telling Bette she "needs" the kind of training she has, the subject of Kate's training at West Point comes up, and Kate get caught up in the idea, thinking it'll be a good character building experience, that it'll keep Bette safe, and hoping that Bette would find military service more rewarding than vigilantism, and maybe also a little of trying to live vicariously through Bette, by getting Bette to have the military career she wasn't able to, without stopping to consider how Bette actually feels or what is right for her. And Bette, against her own feelings, let herself be pressured into giving it a try because of the aforementioned desire for approval.

I'm not going to lie. The primary goal of the story I'm brainstorming is to get Bette back in action as Flamebird, and her being at West Point is kind of seen as an obstacle. This is the Bette appreciation thread, and I'm putting her first when designing the story. It doesn't mean I don't care about Kate. I'm sorry if you feel I'm giving Kate a raw deal here. I understand your fear about the idea of Kate pressuring Bette as reflecting badly on Kate, but my goal isn't to shift the blame entirely off to her. Bette would still at fault for going along so far even to the point of actually attending instead of putting a stop to it much earlier before it got the point she has to drop out. I'm working with the characters as they currently are, including their flaws, and thinking of ways to move them forward.

As an actual storytelling device, West Point hasn't done anything for Bette and isn't likely to. All it's done is remove her from Kate's way and keep her from being active heroine. Bette being at West Point is more part of Kate's status quo, than it is actual status quo for Bette. A Flamebird solo oneshot, miniseries, or ongoing about her attending west point while trying to juggle it with being a heroine is highly unlikely in the current publishing environment and that would be the best chance of finding a way to make west point work for her. Her getting back into action in almost any other venue(Batwoman, Nightwing, a Batfamily title, Titans) will likely necessitate getting her out before she can be Flamebird.

This nails all my problems with the West Point thing. I'd rather see Bette be a doctor or a tennis champion as a day job that a military career

[Tsukiakari1203]

If anyone wants to ask me questions about Bette, I'm willing to answer them https://twitter.com/tsukiakari1203/s...147092484?s=20

[signalman112]

I have followed current events all that closely, Is this a real Cover or just someone playing around?


RobinBette.jpg

[Caivu]

I have followed current events all that closely, Is this a real Cover or just someone playing around?


RobinBette.jpg

Looks like a blank cover with a commission or something. That definitely didn't happen in Batman #75.

[Oberon]

Looks like a blank cover with a commission or something. That definitely didn't happen in Batman #75.

It would be a homage to a Silver Age panel. One of those 5 or 6 appearances of "Betty" as Bat-girl. I love Babs as Batgirl, but Betty is my favorite.

[AmiMizuno]

In a way would if she became a Nightwing character instead of a Bat Character? She was suppose to be Dick’s love interest. She doesn’t have to be his love interest but a ally.

[Tsukiakari1203]

In a way would if she became a Nightwing character instead of a Bat Character? She was suppose to be Dick’s love interest. She doesn’t have to be his love interest but a ally.

I really want her to find a home and if that means that she and Dick become partners in protecting Bludhaven then I'm down for it. Also that cover is beautiful.

Bette and Steph are my favorite Batgirls. But I'm uber protective of Bette