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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    When you think of how many times Donna Troy's origin was retconned, explained, re-explained, you could almost have a little sympathy for

    Bette Kane! She is, though perhaps not exact, the re-visioned "Betty" Kane who was the first Bat-girl.

    But there are so many disparate and desparate attempts to explain or remake her, that it almost begs for at least one coherent story to explain her (keeping in mind that Wonder Girl had several, so why shouldn't Bette get one?)

    "The Secret Origin of Bette Kane, Flamebird" (told you I was a geek)

    Okay her father is either the "unnamed son" and brother of Jacob, Martha et all, or Phillip. I think whoever it is, is Jacob's twin brother

    as twins run in families, Jacob being the father of twins too. It also runs, genetically perhaps, that one twin may more likely be homosexual and I propose that Jacob's twin brother is gay. Here's where I dive in and yeah, rather Soap-Opera-y!

    In that older generation, even a wealthier family expected a gay son to father children and leave heirs, but maybe this brother really didn't want to do that and somehow contrived to let his brother consummate the marriage. Maybe alcohol and partying was involved. Drunken twins and who's the daddy!
    So maybe, Jacob is really Bette's father... When I think of his rather extreme grief over Bette's cutting by the Hook its almost like he saw another daughter going to die.

    So that's what I think. That Bette is Jacob's secret daughter and also Kate's unknown half-sister. Or maybe subconsciously realized on Kate's part, hence a bit of that protectiveness.

    Then there's the Flamebird thing. The best reference to why or how she has that name is an obscure Superman story from the early 2000s where Superman and Lois return to Kandor (I think ) and also replay the time-honored roles of Nightwing and Flamebird. He indicates to Lois that he told both Dick and Bette of the legend.

    When would that have happened? My personal canon and best shot is that it occurred after the events of the classic Silver age "Prisoners of Three Worlds", which was revisited by Morrison in more recent years. Batman, Robin, Batwoman (the first obviously) and "Bat-girl" are exposed to substances that cause a pretty wild adventure. Bruce even declares he loved Kathy Kane. Robin and Bat-girl seem to travel to another planet. etc.

    What if Bette had the hardest time recovering from the substance, being the youngest of them. Who would Bruce turn to if the factors involved extra terrestrial agents? Superman of course.

    So Superman attempts to cure/cleanse Bette and meanwhile she and Robin learn the Kandorian/Kryptonian legends from him. Although super-hypnotised Bette retains a part of this experience. Maybe Superman's cure imparts something that boosts her abilities or creates the affinity for the Flamebird. Years later . .


    Tah-Dah!

  2. #17
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    When I did my Kane family tree I named Betty's father William as a reference to Bill Finger (I didn't know that Bill was short for Milton in his case). I think Betty's ties to Kathy are a great part of her character so I wouldn't want to lose that.

    Kathy Kane's Batwoman did get erased during COIE but Kathy Kane still existed. Bette namedrops her aunt Kathy in the Beast Boy miniseries.

  3. #18
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    i just want Bette back

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    i just want Bette back
    Agreed. Shouldn’t be that hard to straighten her history out.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bretmaverick2 View Post
    Agreed. Shouldn’t be that hard to straighten her history out.
    Honestly just have her be Bat-Girl then she stops because Kathy fakes her death. She goes back to California and becomes FLamebird and a member of the Teen Titans and so on. It's so easy!

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    There is a story (I've only seen some panels) from early this century where Superman recounts to Lois how he told both Dick and Bette of the Kandorian legend of Nightwing and Flamebird.

    I think the 'deal' may be they don't know how to treat the character as most of her latter history since 'Bat-girl' involves the schtick on NW and FB, and her hold-over from 'Betty' thinking she has a crush on Dick.

    I see the Kandor thing as a plus, something to actually build on.

    Despite Kate's attempt at re/training Bette,

    at age 12 she received some training from the original Batwoman, a circus acrobat, right? and Batman, is implied as the four of them, with Robin, did a few missions together.

    Soap operas are really good at finding loopholes or undiscovered avenues in plotting and characters, so it really is about some one figuring this out.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    There is a story (I've only seen some panels) from early this century where Superman recounts to Lois how he told both Dick and Bette of the Kandorian legend of Nightwing and Flamebird.

    I think the 'deal' may be they don't know how to treat the character as most of her latter history since 'Bat-girl' involves the schtick on NW and FB, and her hold-over from 'Betty' thinking she has a crush on Dick.

    I see the Kandor thing as a plus, something to actually build on.

    Despite Kate's attempt at re/training Bette,

    at age 12 she received some training from the original Batwoman, a circus acrobat, right? and Batman, is implied as the four of them, with Robin, did a few missions together.

    Soap operas are really good at finding loopholes or undiscovered avenues in plotting and characters, so it really is about some one figuring this out.
    this makes a lot of sense

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    The way I see it, Bette is a victim of others' intentions. Someone, Marv Wolfman? wanted to use her as a sort of reverse Robin/Nightwing, like she was in a way, back as the silver age Bat-girl.

    Batwoman's original volume and the issues leading to it, posed the idea that Kate would train her/better, and they would be an alt dynamic duo. This was really pleasing to me, even if I now realize that maybe Kate didn't really want that for the 'plebe'. But it played to Kate's stoic and worthy character then.

    And the trouble Bette got into with the Hook played into her character as well.
    The process of reinventing her would probably have worked out/better if the creative team wasn't switched.
    Cause we got Hawkfire and that seemed to cement the direction away from her previous live as a Bat-girl and Flamebird.

    So I would propose that Bette's furtherance would be in character really; the little girl who defied her Aunt Kathy and still sought out adventure. She should get out of West Pointe and reconnect with Garth and TT West.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Batwoman's original volume and the issues leading to it, posed the idea that Kate would train her/better, and they would be an alt dynamic duo. This was really pleasing to me, even if I now realize that maybe Kate didn't really want that for the 'plebe'. But it played to Kate's stoic and worthy character then.
    Rucka and J.H. Williams III set up Kate's support cast and used them: but every subsequent writer has gone out of their way to write-out or discredit that support cast with the exception being Alice.

    Andrekyo:
    -Bette barely appears, quickly written-out with the excuse she was recovering from broken ribs
    -Jacob barely appears, if he did at all, I don't remember seeing him
    -No Catherine
    -Alice becomes red Alice

    Tynion:
    -No Bette apart from a cameo of her at West Point
    -Jacob becomes a supervillain so Kate can chose Bruce over her father
    -No Catherine, mentioned
    -No Alice


    Bennett:
    -No Bette, but she gets mentioned in Kate's thought dialogue a couple of times
    -No Jacob, instead he's replaced by Julia Pennyworth who is spying/babysitting at Bruce's request
    -Alice is a supervillain again

    Personally I count it lucky that none of them changed Bette into a supervillain, so Kate could have more dramas of a family-member going bad. Remember in the first solo that was hinted at, when Batman tells Kate sidekicks have a way of either dying or becoming villains.

    If Kate gets another solo, then for Bette to have a chance it needs to be a writer that actually cares about Kate's support characters. Otherwise we get more of the same where Batman's surplus support characters get tossed in for Kate to use.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Rucka and J.H. Williams III set up Kate's support cast and used them: but every subsequent writer has gone out of their way to write-out or discredit that support cast with the exception being Alice.

    Andrekyo:
    -Bette barely appears, quickly written-out with the excuse she was recovering from broken ribs
    -Jacob barely appears, if he did at all, I don't remember seeing him
    -No Catherine
    -Alice becomes red Alice

    Tynion:
    -No Bette apart from a cameo of her at West Point
    -Jacob becomes a supervillain so Kate can chose Bruce over her father
    -No Catherine, mentioned
    -No Alice


    Bennett:
    -No Bette, but she gets mentioned in Kate's thought dialogue a couple of times
    -No Jacob, instead he's replaced by Julia Pennyworth who is spying/babysitting at Bruce's request
    -Alice is a supervillain again

    Personally I count it lucky that none of them changed Bette into a supervillain, so Kate could have more dramas of a family-member going bad. Remember in the first solo that was hinted at, when Batman tells Kate sidekicks have a way of either dying or becoming villains.

    If Kate gets another solo, then for Bette to have a chance it needs to be a writer that actually cares about Kate's support characters. Otherwise we get more of the same where Batman's surplus support characters get tossed in for Kate to use.
    I vote for Kate's supporting characters to stabilize to Julia, Jacob, Catherine Hamilton, Bette, Maggie or Renee, and Alice. I also want to throw in Kathy Kane but that's just me. Bette deserves better

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    I vote for Kate's supporting characters to stabilize to Julia, Jacob, Catherine Hamilton, Bette, Maggie or Renee, and Alice. I also want to throw in Kathy Kane but that's just me. Bette deserves better
    Both Julia and Jacob would require the two meeting each other and both being Kate's tech support, but it could work I suppose.

    Speaking of which, the use or lack of it is weird when it comes to Julia - she was no where to be seen in 'Pennyworth RIP'. I still think that no one told her her dad died, hence she didn't appear.

    I prefer Kate with Bette than any of Bruce's kids. At least we know Bette is with Kate first and foremost, and won't turn on her the moment Bruce and Kate disagree about something. This was made abundantly clear in the Tynion Tec run when only the adults (besides Bruce) sided with Kate.
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 09-18-2020 at 07:08 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Both Julia and Jacob would require the two meeting each other and both being Kate's tech support, but it could work I suppose.

    Speaking of which, the use or lack of it is weird when it comes to Julia - she was no where to be seen in 'Pennyworth RIP'. I still think that no one told her her dad died, hence she didn't appear.

    I prefer Kate with Bette than any of Bruce's kids. At least we know Bette is with Kate first and foremost, and won't turn on her the moment Bruce and Kate disagree about something. This was made abundantly clear in the Tynion Tec run when only the adults (besides Bruce) sided with Kate.
    Well considering the Colony stuff, Julia would work better as tech support. Bette being Kate's equal partner not a sidekick like she was with Williams and Blackman. Catherine being a financial backer. Maggie being her Gordon and Renee could be another field agent. Alice as the person who's trying to redeem herself

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I wonder if the current unknowns with the TV show will inhibit any actions on the comics use of Bette or any characters.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I wonder if the current unknowns with the TV show will inhibit any actions on the comics use of Bette or any characters.
    Based on previous experience, WB only demand certain characters to be available and featured more, such as when they're doing Son of Batman animated movie, Damian has to be resurrected and lead a Son of Batman comic, then when there's a Teen Titans movie starring him, Rebirth made him lead the same team

    However, detail is different. The comic is still following its continuity. Raven is older and not attracted to Damian, for example, and Blue Beetle Jaime isn't even in the comic.

    So the demand to prioritize certain characters will not affect the presence of current unknowns, but that still depends if the writers want to use them as bonus supporting cast or not.

    For example, the Damian Teen Titans movie doesn't require DC to use Emiko Queen or Wallace Kid Flash in the comic, that's not the lineup, but they do it anyway. (Aqualad was added later because Young Justice Season 3 is coming)

  15. #30
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I see. Still wondering if they're going to have a different character be Batwoman in the TV show.

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