Mary Elizabeth "Betty/Bette" Kane Appreciation 2020 (Bat-Girl/Flamebird/Hawkfire

[Tsukiakari1203]

Maybe, but it's not a great look. Bette has a reputation of being a flake who doesn't commit to a lot of things, and it's not exactly unearned. It would also make Kate even more pissed at her.



I don't think so, for the same reason as above. Kate knows that Bette has a tendency to ping-pong around, and Bette's already dropped out of at least one school, so I don't think she would consider someone like that joining the Army to be very wise. She would definitely want Bette to commit to something besides vigilantism, but specifically pressuring her into West Point or even general military service doesn't sound like something she'd do. Bette making the connection of "West Point = Kate's approval" makes more sense and lines up better character-wise.

I don't like the idea of Kate forcing Bette into anything. I don't think Bette's a flake either. I think people just forgot about the UCLA thing,

[Caivu]

I don't think Bette's a flake either. I think people just forgot about the UCLA thing,

Bette apparently completely dropped her classes at Gotham U when she decided to team up with Kate, and as far as I know didn't go back after she recovered from her injuries. Intentional or not, that's how it reads.

[Tsukiakari1203]

Bette apparently completely dropped her classes at Gotham U when she decided to team up with Kate, and as far as I know didn't go back after she recovered from her injuries.

I have tried to block everything that happened to Bette in Batwoman. Also, why was she going to Gotham U? She's normally in California.

[Caivu]

I have tried to block everything that happened to Bette in Batwoman. Also, why was she going to Gotham U? She's normally in California.

She was attending Gotham U in Elegy. That's where Cutter abducted her from.

[Tsukiakari1203]

She was attending Gotham U in Elegy. That's where Cutter abducted her from.

ugh, I want Bette to either be treated good or for her to go home to Cali

[Oberon]

Facing the facts, Bette, who is some us folks' favorite character, is not likely to get any kind of treatment in the near future.

Even most writers who use Kate for Batfamily adventures never remembers FB.

I personally think that she may seem flakey but her one consistency has always been the love of adventure. Sure that has allowed her to be played as a fool hardy, vain and boy/Robin crazy female. These things are derived from her core character in the Silver Age.

But like many things over time, those qualities were exaggerated to become stereotypical. It was only when Bette came into the new Batwoman's story that something coherent or realistic was brought in.

If only we could have seen more of that.

[Bat-Meal]

Facing the facts, Bette, who is some us folks' favorite character, is not likely to get any kind of treatment in the near future.

Even most writers who use Kate for Batfamily adventures never remembers FB.

It occurs to me that in order for Bette to truly be introduced to the Bat-family Kate would need to be a damsel for an arc or so. It would provide the right motivation for them to meet-up and work together. No one should question why Bette is there - Kate is her cousin so of course she would have a right to be involved.

Not saying I would or would not want that to happen - just putting it out there.
Bette was Kate's damsel in a big way in the first solo anyway. The last time Kate was truly a damsel, I think, was in 52 Religion of Crime, where Renee was the hero of the story and they saved each other.

[Artemisfanboy]

Maybe, but it's not a great look. Bette has a reputation of being a flake who doesn't commit to a lot of things, and it's not exactly unearned. It would also make Kate even more pissed at her.



I don't think so, for the same reason as above. Kate knows that Bette has a tendency to ping-pong around, and Bette's already dropped out of at least one school, so I don't think she would consider someone like that joining the Army to be very wise. She would definitely want Bette to commit to something besides vigilantism, but specifically pressuring her into West Point or even general military service doesn't sound like something she'd do. Bette making the connection of "West Point = Kate's approval" makes more sense and lines up better character-wise.

The main thing is we want see her back in action as Flamebird, and her being stuck in limbo at West Point is kind of getting the way. It's highly unlikely enough time would pass in universe for her to graduate anytime soon. And there's the facts 1) Knowing her history, West Point doesn't seem a good fit for her, backed by 2) Last we saw her she didn't want to be at West Point and wanted to go back to Flamebird. And I don't really see any opportunity for her to get back in action without getting her out of West Point. Anyway it's accomplished whether retconning it, or writing her out of there with it not working out and being a wrong fit for her somehow can work for me.

In my idea, Kate having pressured Bette to attend west point would make the West point mess partially both their faults. Bette shouldn't have changed her life plan to appease Kate, particularly when she knew West Point wasn't right for her. And Kate shouldn't have pressured Bette into something that isn't right for her, and blowing her off when Bette was last trying to talk to her about it. Both of them would be at fault. The nominal end point would be them reconciling on some level while acknowledging their own mistakes.

[Oberon]

When you look or try to compare real life "training" with super hero training and how it tends to happen, it is hard to see this insistence that Bette can only be appreciated as having gone about the same path as Kate.

I can't think of any characters who subscribe to the idea but I just want to see it as realistic for Kate, in story, but also not seen as realistic or fair, from Bette's point of view.

I don't think that seeing Bette or portraying her as flakey is really fair considering her overall past. She's been/was portrayed as an ally to Bats and company longer than any other character except Dick, and ummm, the original Batwoman.

There are people who might think that the way Kate handled her situation in the military which ends in bailing, as also flakey so I want to stop going to this idea that if one person changes their minds, they're flakey, but not so other characters perhaps.

Therein lies the problem, Bette has no writer or editor on her side as a full character. The closest that anyone looked at her character was in the original Batwoman volume and preceding stories. In most other stories Bette is a side character and not used as more than comedic or romantic interests. So some writer or editor needs to see her value as a character and give us more.

Have they ever considered from her point of view that there were reasons that mattered, for her decisions? That is one of the reason why my head-canon creates stories about her father and /or the connections to the Kanes, the time context between Silver Age and recent interpretations.

Bette starts as a kid who visits the aunt who owned a circus. She seems to be curious and an achiever (some of that later in the Teen Titans first era) in sports. I do not believe that it is ever established that Kanes are mixed with Waynes in the original canon. That comes later with modern Batwoman.
So . . . Bette goes back to wherever, maybe because her folks and/or Jacob, don't like her hanging with Aunt Kathy considering Gotham's crime problems. But maybe Jacob secretly knows about Batwoman?

It's not really clear how COIE would have affected Bette Kane, but she is not active in that immediate era, or only slightly in Crisis? ( I forget), so it's not important, but eventually she is Flamebird and eventually with the

"Batgirl? Been there, done that" quote when she meets Cats Cain, indicates that she was, 'a' Batgirl, that is, worked with Batfamily in some capacity.

Still, COIE would probably have held the key, what happened, her transition.

In any of these eras, the following would have contributed to Bette having to make decisions that seemed flakey:

I suspect her father died, never really mentioned. During her hospitalization after the Hook I think her mom is mentioned. This unknown woman is the possible only actual mention of her parent.

So her father must have died, may have died
and her mother was not very involved (sorrow or other problems in the marriage) so Bette was called back or made changes based on these things. Maybe her mother tried to keep her away from Kanes stuff and moved around? I also think her mother tried to over manage her life; beauty contests that Kate or others may have mentioned; sports competition/training. To some degree there is the idea that Bette has some very superficial things going on.

But no actual "Robin-crazy" mentions have happened since her involvement with the new Batwoman, am I right?

And those are the things that make her the most flakey, even to me.
So with those gone, we really have an over enthusiastic young person, who is easily channeled or molded into someone else's idea of moving up.

[Will Evans]

When you look or try to compare real life "training" with super hero training and how it tends to happen, it is hard to see this insistence that Bette can only be appreciated as having gone about the same path as Kate.

I can't think of any characters who subscribe to the idea but I just want to see it as realistic for Kate, in story, but also not seen as realistic or fair, from Bette's point of view.

I don't think that seeing Bette or portraying her as flakey is really fair considering her overall past. She's been/was portrayed as an ally to Bats and company longer than any other character except Dick, and ummm, the original Batwoman.

There are people who might think that the way Kate handled her situation in the military which ends in bailing, as also flakey so I want to stop going to this idea that if one person changes their minds, they're flakey, but not so other characters perhaps.

Therein lies the problem, Bette has no writer or editor on her side as a full character. The closest that anyone looked at her character was in the original Batwoman volume and preceding stories. In most other stories Bette is a side character and not used as more than comedic or romantic interests. So some writer or editor needs to see her value as a character and give us more.

Have they ever considered from her point of view that there were reasons that mattered, for her decisions? That is one of the reason why my head-canon creates stories about her father and /or the connections to the Kanes, the time context between Silver Age and recent interpretations.

Bette starts as a kid who visits the aunt who owned a circus. She seems to be curious and an achiever (some of that later in the Teen Titans first era) in sports. I do not believe that it is ever established that Kanes are mixed with Waynes in the original canon. That comes later with modern Batwoman.
So . . . Bette goes back to wherever, maybe because her folks and/or Jacob, don't like her hanging with Aunt Kathy considering Gotham's crime problems. But maybe Jacob secretly knows about Batwoman?

It's not really clear how COIE would have affected Bette Kane, but she is not active in that immediate era, or only slightly in Crisis? ( I forget), so it's not important, but eventually she is Flamebird and eventually with the

"Batgirl? Been there, done that" quote when she meets Cats Cain, indicates that she was, 'a' Batgirl, that is, worked with Batfamily in some capacity.

Still, COIE would probably have held the key, what happened, her transition.

All that is covered in the Teen Titans and Hawk and Dove comics, where Bette has all her post-Crisis appearances from the 80s and 90s.

Until she was a supporting character in the Beast Boy miniseries of early 2000s of which Geoff Johns wrote. He then used her sporadically in the new Teen Titans lineup that he wrote up through Infinite Crisis.

Only then after Kate got a book did Bette start appearing in those.

[Tsukiakari1203]

I honestly want Bette moved away from Kate and moved more into the Nightwing sphere. I'd like to see them as partners defending Bludhaven. It would be a cool series.

[Caivu]

It's highly unlikely enough time would pass in universe for her to graduate anytime soon.

I dunno. She would have already graduated if things had been in real time. I don't think that would be too difficult to have be the case soonish, if they were to do it.

In my idea, Kate having pressured Bette to attend west point would make the West point mess partially both their faults. Bette shouldn't have changed her life plan to appease Kate, particularly when she knew West Point wasn't right for her. And Kate shouldn't have pressured Bette into something that isn't right for her, and blowing her off when Bette was last trying to talk to her about it. Both of them would be at fault. The nominal end point would be them reconciling on some level while acknowledging their own mistakes.

But that idea requires at least one of those characters acting in a way that doesn't make sense for them to act. Possibly both.

[Artemisfanboy]

I dunno. She would have already graduated if things had been in real time. I don't think that would be too difficult to have be the case soonish, if they were to do it.




But that idea requires at least one of those characters acting in a way that doesn't make sense for them to act. Possibly both.

The thing is real time and comics generally don't match up. And it's safer to assume they aren't going to say the last five or six years of stories happened in real time. So for her to graduate you'd need to come up with some excuse for it happening early. And then you have to take a sliding timeline and compressing events into account. Comparatively just saying she never went to west point because the timeline shifted and the characters are now their pre-flashpoint ages and would have been too old is easier than trying to incorporate real time passage. I don't know if they could come up with an excuse for early graduation or not.

I'm looking at the last interaction they had and
1)Bette didn't want to be at West Point and wanted to go back to Flamebird.
2) Kate was "ordering" her to stay at west point and kind of blew her off.(Kate did say "Stay in uniform, not in costume, and that's an order, soldier")
And trying to build directly off it.

I understand the concern about it might make one or both of the characters look bad, but I don't feel it would do serious damage to either of them if written with a balanced nuanced intent to help both of them in the long run. Kate can be a little bossy particularly when dealing with Bette, and Bette has shown a desire for approval from others, including Kate. They're character flaws that can be worked on and dealt with. And there really aren't too many ways to write Bette out of West Point and back as Flamebird which won't cause some level of conflict with her and Kate.

[Tsukiakari1203]

The thing is real time and comics generally don't match up. And it's safer to assume they aren't going to say the last five or six years of stories happened in real time. So for her to graduate you'd need to come up with some excuse for it happening early. And then you have to take a sliding timeline and compressing events into account. Comparatively just saying she never went to west point because the timeline shifted and the characters are now their pre-flashpoint ages and would have been too old is easier than trying to incorporate real time passage. I don't know if they could come up with an excuse for early graduation or not.

I'm looking at the last interaction they had and
1)Bette didn't want to be at West Point and wanted to go back to Flamebird.
2) Kate was "ordering" her to stay at west point and kind of blew her off.(Kate did say "Stay in uniform, not in costume, and that's an order, soldier")
And trying to build directly off it.

I understand the concern about it might make one or both of the characters look bad, but I don't feel it would do serious damage to either of them if written with a balanced nuanced intent to help both of them in the long run. Kate can be a little bossy particularly when dealing with Bette, and Bette has shown a desire for approval from others, including Kate. They're character flaws that can be worked on and dealt with. And there really aren't too many ways to write Bette out of West Point and back as Flamebird which won't cause some level of conflict with her and Kate.

I think this would work best. I also feel that it's time Bette got a new Flamebird design. I was thinking red and gold color scheme with green belt and gloves. No mask, just the goggles.

[Caivu]

I don't know if they could come up with an excuse for early graduation or not.

Not in any realistic way.

I'm looking at the last interaction they had and
1)Bette didn't want to be at West Point and wanted to go back to Flamebird.
2) Kate was "ordering" her to stay at west point and kind of blew her off.(Kate did say "Stay in uniform, not in costume, and that's an order, soldier")
And trying to build directly off it.

I understand the concern about it might make one or both of the characters look bad, but I don't feel it would do serious damage to either of them if written with a balanced nuanced intent to help both of them in the long run. Kate can be a little bossy particularly when dealing with Bette, and Bette has shown a desire for approval from others, including Kate. They're character flaws that can be worked on and dealt with. And there really aren't too many ways to write Bette out of West Point and back as Flamebird which won't cause some level of conflict with her and Kate.

It's not about either of them looking bad, though. The premise is flawed from the outset. Even if Kate were the type to pressure someone like Bette into attending West Point (and she's not), that's not something that someone can be pressured into, because the ultimate decision isn't up to the one applying. I don't see what there is to build off of here since the foundation doesn't work.