Is the Lizard a broken character?

[Snoop Dogg]

I liked how the 90s cartoon handled Lizard, he became Spiderman's ally, though he struggled with his animal impulses and was somewhat dangerous.

Reading this thread, I see that a lot has changed since then. I wasn't even aware that he killed his own kid. How did that even happen?

now im no lizard man but i bet humans hit a lil different

[TheCape]

I liked how the 90s cartoon handled Lizard, he became Spiderman's ally, though he struggled with his animal impulses and was somewhat dangerous.

Reading this thread, I see that a lot has changed since then. I wasn't even aware that he killed his own kid. How did that even happen?

Lizard wanted to kill his human half and decided than killing Connors kid would do. It didn't turn out as he expected.

[Huntsman Spider]

Lizard wanted to kill his human half and decided than killing Connors kid would do. It didn't turn put as he expected.

This exchange, specifically:

The Lizard, after "shedding" Curt Connors: "I feel . . . strange. What is this?"

Spider-Man, weary to his soul and horrified, disgusted, and enraged: "It's called shame. You killed a child. Get used to it."

[The Negative Zone]

What villain isn't broken in comics? It's an endless cycle of never actually ending the story.

[Spidey_62]

Electro was more interesting in the cartoons like Spectacular where he needed that containment suit and just being in it all the time starts to drive him nuts (kinda like everybody sitting in their houses 24/7 anymore, relatable) and he just keeps trying to find help from people like Connors and turning to being Doc Ock's biggest fanboy because he looks up to him and believes he'll actually be able to help him. Red Skull's son Electro in the 90s is even more interesting, cause there his powers are the result of a big doomsday level weapon the Red Skull built to make somebody into the ultimate weapon and there's big stakes with Electro instead of him being his usual 'super-powerful but doesn't really know what to do with it' self.

Even the MTV cartoon version is pretty cool because he's one of those dark mirrors of Peter, he's a nerdy friend at college who gets humiliated by fratboys, gets powers and immediately lashes out going postal on those kids. If that wasn't already pretty heavy he next turned into a creepy ghostly electrical aberration that stalks and haunts this girl he hardly even spoke to in school through TV's and computers. I think that show's blue Electro predated Ultimate blue Electro because he didn't go blue until around then. Ultimate Electro is alright, just sort of a powerful mob enforcer then angry guy who doesn't like Spider-Man. All of those TV interpretations are at least more interesting to me than the base 616 version of Electro.

Speaking of Ultimate, Ultimate Doctor Connors was a loser they didn't do much with. If I remember right, Spidey fought him in the team up book, Man-Thing cured him but then the rest of his Ultimate appearances Connors is just a drunk jerk who left his family, and uses Peter's blood for Carnage. Something like that.

What villain isn't broken in comics? It's an endless cycle of never actually ending the story.

Some do fare better than others, it feels like some writers are able to make sense out of convoluted histories and retroactively make them make more sense sometimes. Sandman had a good thing going actually progressing and then they pulled a cheap memory reset on him, then that sort of faded off and he became tragic and full of split personalities that kind of helped explain some of that away, now I think he's dead again.

[PCN24454]

The problem I feel comes from overusing the Lizard aspect as though that's the only valuable part of his character. In Spectacular Spider-Man, he only ever transforms into the Lizard once, but the ramifications of the transformation persists throughout the series.

[TheCape]

This exchange, specifically:

The Lizard, after "shedding" Curt Connors: "I feel . . . strange. What is this?"

Spider-Man, weary to his soul and horrified, disgusted, and enraged: "It's called shame. You killed a child. Get used to it."

Good dialogue. But man i really don't like that story.

[Frontier]

Max is banned until he comes back with the Spectacular design.

Eh, I like Spec Electro I think they could have hued to his comic look a little bit more. I get what they were going for at least.

Electro was more interesting in the cartoons like Spectacular where he needed that containment suit and just being in it all the time starts to drive him nuts (kinda like everybody sitting in their houses 24/7 anymore, relatable) and he just keeps trying to find help from people like Connors and turning to being Doc Ock's biggest fanboy because he looks up to him and believes he'll actually be able to help him. Red Skull's son Electro in the 90s is even more interesting, cause there his powers are the result of a big doomsday level weapon the Red Skull built to make somebody into the ultimate weapon and there's big stakes with Electro instead of him being his usual 'super-powerful but doesn't really know what to do with it' self.

Even the MTV cartoon version is pretty cool because he's one of those dark mirrors of Peter, he's a nerdy friend at college who gets humiliated by fratboys, gets powers and immediately lashes out going postal on those kids. If that wasn't already pretty heavy he next turned into a creepy ghostly electrical aberration that stalks and haunts this girl he hardly even spoke to in school through TV's and computers. I think that show's blue Electro predated Ultimate blue Electro because he didn't go blue until around then. Ultimate Electro is alright, just sort of a powerful mob enforcer then angry guy who doesn't like Spider-Man. All of those TV interpretations are at least more interesting to me than the base 616 version of Electro.

Not to mention the running gag of Electro being voiced by people who've voiced Spider-Man. James Arnold Taylor, Christopher Daniel Barnes, Josh Keaton...

Speaking of Ultimate, Ultimate Doctor Connors was a loser they didn't do much with. If I remember right, Spidey fought him in the team up book, Man-Thing cured him but then the rest of his Ultimate appearances Connors is just a drunk jerk who left his family, and uses Peter's blood for Carnage. Something like that.

Yeah, in the main book proper Ultimate Lizard appeared in, like, maybe one full splash page and a panel or two but that's about it.

Connors was also established as being this hitherto unseen secret medical confidante for Ultimate Peter up until he took his blood and then things went completely off the rails.

[Huntsman Spider]

Good dialogue. But man i really don't like that story.

Neither do I, honestly. It was just hideous.

Eh, I like Spec Electro I think they could have hued to his comic look a little bit more. I get what they were going for at least.

Not to mention the running gag of Electro being voiced by people who've voiced Spider-Man. James Arnold Taylor, Christopher Daniel Barnes, Josh Keaton...

Yeah, in the main book proper Ultimate Lizard appeared in, like, maybe one full splash page and a panel or two but that's about it.

Connors was also established as being this hitherto unseen secret medical confidante for Ultimate Peter up until he took his blood and then things went completely off the rails.

And in Spectacular, he was voiced by Crispin Freeman, who did portray a somewhat similar character to the "classical" version of Peter Parker/Spider-Man in the anime The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, i.e. a seemingly ordinary, but highly intelligent brown-haired teenager who snarks his way through the insanity his life has become. (Not to mention, he was Mysterio in the second season of the 2017 cartoon.)

Spidey_62, I liked TAS Electro, too. As Nick Fury said, "He brought down all of S.H.I.E.L.D. . . . with nothing but a gesture."

[scilover]

The problem I feel comes from overusing the Lizard aspect as though that's the only valuable part of his character. In Spectacular Spider-Man, he only ever transforms into the Lizard once, but the ramifications of the transformation persists throughout the series.

I agree as well. Everytime I read a spiderman comic with him in it, it's always him losing control and then spiderman trying to find a way to revert him back to normal. It's too predictable and it's getting boring.

[Mistah K88]

What villain isn't broken in comics? It's an endless cycle of never actually ending the story.

I'd say it's actually more challenging if the character is supposed to be sympathetic... The backstory can be AMAZING, but it often has a shelf life in comparison to someone who you aren't to feel too sorry for. It's kind of like Batman's Mr. Freeze, where while the BTAS origin story is good, you can only use the character a few times before the backstory becomes an excuse. Connors has a similar issue, however one could at least excuse him as not being in total control of his actions. However, unlike evil characters like Norman (who will go out of their way to do horrid things because they are a horrible person) you start to wonder how he isn't able to get things under control after a period of time.

The problem I feel comes from overusing the Lizard aspect as though that's the only valuable part of his character. In Spectacular Spider-Man, he only ever transforms into the Lizard once, but the ramifications of the transformation persists throughout the series.

This is also an interesting take...we got the mindless beast one time, but things came back to bite him when Miles Warren looked at his research, put things together, and effectively run the Connors family out of New York by blackmailing him.

[Voices From the Eyrie]

I'd say it's actually more challenging if the character is supposed to be sympathetic... The backstory can be AMAZING, but it often has a shelf life in comparison to someone who you aren't to feel too sorry for. It's kind of like Batman's Mr. Freeze, where while the BTAS origin story is good, you can only use the character a few times before the backstory becomes an excuse. Connors has a similar issue, however one could at least excuse him as not being in total control of his actions. However, unlike evil characters like Norman (who will go out of their way to do horrid things because they are a horrible person) you start to wonder how he isn't able to get things under control after a period of time.

At a certain point, Connors has a responsibility to turn himself into the authorities in order to protect others.

[Huntsman Spider]

At a certain point, Connors has a responsibility to turn himself into the authorities in order to protect others.

That's kind of what he did for a while when he came back during the last run. Having regained his human mind, he pretended he was still the Lizard in body and in mind because he saw being locked up like an animal as his just and due punishment for letting the Lizard destroy his family.

[Scott Taylor]

I feel like he is in the same kind of black hole of story limits as Morbius tends to be. And over in DC, the way Man-Bat gets used. In all of these cases, I really think they work best as a good guy who struggles with control. And as scientists. The bad guy thing is way too played out for all of them.

Maybe Lizard just needs a role model. Do we even have any lizard-based superheroes at all? I think its high time!

[Voices From the Eyrie]

I feel like he is in the same kind of black hole of story limits as Morbius tends to be. And over in DC, the way Man-Bat gets used. In all of these cases, I really think they work best as a good guy who struggles with control. And as scientists. The bad guy thing is way too played out for all of them.

Maybe Lizard just needs a role model. Do we even have any lizard-based superheroes at all? I think its high time!

Crusading Chameleon!