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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    What's wrong with the heavy gravity? I love the idea of sentient life evolving on a world where even basic physics are trying to kill them. It makes the rise of Kryptonian science and civilization that much more impressive, and their downfall that much more bitter and inevitable.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #77
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    What's the size of Krypton(comparatively) anyway? How many g does krypton have? How many moons does it have? Really, lois and other earthlings seem to be able to walk around very comfortably when those "back to the future" thing happens . They don't really have it fleshed out.Snyder movies atleast did that. Lois had where protection inside ship and clark was coughing up blood. I also like how clark used to have all these adaptability issue on earth in man of steel. He had breathing problems, sight problems, hearing problems.. Etc.Snyder movies sortof combined all the explanation into one.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-14-2020 at 09:55 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    What's wrong with the heavy gravity? I love the idea of sentient life evolving on a world where even basic physics are trying to kill them. It makes the rise of Kryptonian science and civilization that much more impressive, and their downfall that much more bitter and inevitable.
    I have nothing against the heavy gravity. But if humanoids evolved on Krypton then their ability to resist gravity would have happened at an earlier stage of evolution. So the humanoids wouldn't be crawling around on all fours--but some earlier species might have. And evolution, for higher life forms, isn't quick. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for big changes to happen.

    However, I might be misremembering what Maggin wrote in either LAST SON OF KRYPTON or MIRACLE MONDAY and conflating it with "Starwinds Howl." In that story about Krypto, Maggin does call back to the Bates story and indicates that the men on Krypton are settlers from another world. He says, "Folklore held that the male and female humans who founded the race, shipwrecked spacefarers, were named Kryp and Tonn, respectively."

    Maggin goes on to tell about the struggles of the settlers against the gravity. But it seems to me that if they had the technology to get to Krypton then they had the technology to function in heavy gravity.


    ***

    . . . Krypton should have been a yellow star, a G-type, and it was ever so close. For all the fireworks at its molten core, Krypton never did gather the critical mass necessary to throw off its cooling outer shell and toss its burnoff out among the starwinds. Instead of melting and burning in a borning burst of golden flame, Krypton's shell froze into an irregular surface of what came to be mountains and seas.

    Before a billion years of its life had gone, Krypton was no longer a seething rock floating in the void, but fell into a wide orbit around a distant star. It became a subject of the red giant that was the largest product of the nova in which Krypton, along with the local cluster, was born. As it does on virtually all worlds, life rose here. Then, as it does on virtually all worlds, it died and rose again a hundred times. Here and there, life takes hold and for a short while, in some places, it flourishes. On Krypton, it never took hold until the planet that ached to be a star had nearly given up. . . .

    ***

    . . . In the early days of Krypton's human settlement, people had to spend most of their days on all fours, compensating for gravitation so strong that muscles either hardened or killed their owners. Hearts expanded and often burst with the strain. Legs bulged and toughened and sometimes became too heavy for the muscles themselves to carry. Calcium took root in the joints and the tendons and, in the relatively sedentary, fused motionless in the night. Natural selection never took so severe a hit as when the humans tried to adapt to the air and minerals and killing gravitation of Mother Krypton, but once a generation of humans stood upright and snatched at a breath of air again, it was the dogs who found the path to the future.

    The dogs who accompanied the first shipwrecked settlers on this world took to the planet far more quickly than did their masters. Dogs grew strong here, foraging among the forests, growing their lungs from one short generation to the next, leaping tall shrubbery in a single bound. Dogs were adaptable. They had to teach their humans to be this way as well. They did this on the icepack.

    It was not many generations before natural selection among humans made them as well adapted to this big dense world as dogs. Soon, humans began to move northward and southward from the lower-gravity equatorial regions, and they took their dogs with them.

    ***

  4. #79
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I have nothing against the heavy gravity. But if humanoids evolved on Krypton then their ability to resist gravity would have happened at an earlier stage of evolution. So the humanoids wouldn't be crawling around on all fours--but some earlier species might have. And evolution, for higher life forms, isn't quick. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for big changes to happen.
    Of course it does. I'm not saying this would've been a problem for, what, cave dwelling Kryptonian primitives marveling at fire; the evolutionary adaption to high gravity would've taken place long before anything resembling a humanoid crawled on Krypton's surface, this would have been happening from the start, as soon as life forms more complex than a ooze-y pile of organic goo started trying to move on its own.

    What I mean is that the gravity should be so high, humanoid life shouldn't really exist there at all, like the g's are just brushing against the threshold that would prevent evolution from going vertical.

    And the planet itself, the flora and fauna, should be ridiculously deadly, far more so than you would've found on, say, ancient Rann or Almerac or even Thanagar.

    What I'm saying is that Krypton should be a planet so harsh and brutal, intelligent humanoid life (much less human looking life, with soft pink skin and no claws or fangs) really shouldn't have evolved there at all, and the fact that it did is almost a statistical anomaly, a trillion to one chance.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    What I'm saying is that Krypton should be a planet so harsh and brutal, intelligent humanoid life (much less human looking life, with soft pink skin and no claws or fangs) really shouldn't have evolved there at all, and the fact that it did is almost a statistical anomaly, a trillion to one chance.
    A hilarious retcon would be that Jor-El and Lara are traditionally portrayed as humanoid, and baby Kal *exactly* resembles a baby human, because that's the body they grew for him, and the way they made their hologram recordings appear, but that the actual Kryptonian race looked *nothing* like humanoids from Earth... Peering back through time, Kal finds out that Kryptonians were big blobs with tentacles (and that their natural form might not even be able to survive on Earth's surface, due to the pressure)!

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    A hilarious retcon would be that Jor-El and Lara are traditionally portrayed as humanoid, and baby Kal *exactly* resembles a baby human, because that's the body they grew for him, and the way they made their hologram recordings appear, but that the actual Kryptonian race looked *nothing* like humanoids from Earth... Peering back through time, Kal finds out that Kryptonians were big blobs with tentacles (and that their natural form might not even be able to survive on Earth's surface, due to the pressure)!
    with pincher penis (Nebezial reference)

    The last discussion about gravity and evolution is too smart for me, and as a reader doesn't really matter unless the characters time travel, so I'm bringing it back to architecture

    Since Krypton has varied landscapes, the shape of the city and its defenses should look different depending on where it's located and what kind of people living in it. So some of the cities may look crystalline, other futuristic and clean, others more rugged, and it can be different from the outer city to the center

    Unless they all have The Dome, then it doesn't matter

    Maybe the old town will be different. Like before it has a big bubble, it looks more rugged, but once the barrier is up they're free to adorn the city with something more fragile.

    Oh speaking of crystals, since Fortress of Solitude is classically crystalline, then at least Jor-El's city should have crystal elements, otherwise, where did that design language and technology come from.

  7. #82
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Of course it does. I'm not saying this would've been a problem for, what, cave dwelling Kryptonian primitives marveling at fire; the evolutionary adaption to high gravity would've taken place long before anything resembling a humanoid crawled on Krypton's surface, this would have been happening from the start, as soon as life forms more complex than a ooze-y pile of organic goo started trying to move on its own.

    What I mean is that the gravity should be so high, humanoid life shouldn't really exist there at all, like the g's are just brushing against the threshold that would prevent evolution from going vertical.

    And the planet itself, the flora and fauna, should be ridiculously deadly, far more so than you would've found on, say, ancient Rann or Almerac or even Thanagar.

    What I'm saying is that Krypton should be a planet so harsh and brutal, intelligent humanoid life (much less human looking life, with soft pink skin and no claws or fangs) really shouldn't have evolved there at all, and the fact that it did is almost a statistical anomaly, a trillion to one chance.
    Well in some regions of the planet that apparently was impossible. Krypton had a region with "glass" life forms, an entire mountain range made of crystalline minerals, a "flame forest"..etc... None of those areas is suitable for life as we know it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    with pincher penis (Nebezial reference)

    The last discussion about gravity and evolution is too smart for me, and as a reader doesn't really matter unless the characters time travel, so I'm bringing it back to architecture

    Since Krypton has varied landscapes, the shape of the city and its defenses should look different depending on where it's located and what kind of people living in it. So some of the cities may look crystalline, other futuristic and clean, others more rugged, and it can be different from the outer city to the center

    Unless they all have The Dome, then it doesn't matter

    Maybe the old town will be different. Like before it has a big bubble, it looks more rugged, but once the barrier is up they're free to adorn the city with something more fragile.

    Oh speaking of crystals, since Fortress of Solitude is classically crystalline, then at least Jor-El's city should have crystal elements, otherwise, where did that design language and technology come from.
    Well pics of the various cities are often based on the whim of the artist, but there is a lot of variation. Also: Kryptonopolis is near the Jewel Mountains, so maybe the relative ease of sourcing crystalline minerals as materials affected this?
    Last edited by marhawkman; 07-14-2020 at 07:36 PM.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well in some regions of the planet that apparently was impossible. Krypton had a region with "glass" life forms, an entire mountain range made of crystalline minerals, a "flame forest"..etc... None of those areas is suitable for life as we know it.

    Well pics of the various cities are often based on the whim of the artist, but there is a lot of variation. Also: Kryptonopolis is near the Jewel Mountains, so maybe the relative ease of sourcing crystalline minerals as materials affected this?
    Unfortunately, that means different cities can be uniform based on the artist too.

    Okay, so that fits. Kryptonopolis is the crystal one. At least they should have some buildings that use the design language of the Fortress of Solitude.

    Same with the others. Argo, Kandor... where are they located, what resources they can get nearby, who lives there, and what's their specialty informs what kind of structure and design they should have.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    The documentary "The Death of Superman Lives: What Happened?" showcased a little of what Tim Burton was going to try to do with Krypton in his unmade film, "Superman Lives". Basically, it sounded like he was going to go for a mix of the alien vibe and aesthetic to the planet not dissimilar in my mind to Byrne and Mignola, but crucially more wondrous, and mixed with that Silver Age sense of loss, the idea that Clark knew that even as a Superman on Earth, he knew that "he missed out on being a part of something really special" by not getting to live on Krypton. I think that sounds like a very good encapsulation of a Krypton I'd have liked to see. I wish Burton had gotten the chance to make it.

    Here's some concept art.



    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    A hilarious retcon would be that Jor-El and Lara are traditionally portrayed as humanoid, and baby Kal *exactly* resembles a baby human, because that's the body they grew for him, and the way they made their hologram recordings appear, but that the actual Kryptonian race looked *nothing* like humanoids from Earth... Peering back through time, Kal finds out that Kryptonians were big blobs with tentacles (and that their natural form might not even be able to survive on Earth's surface, due to the pressure)!
    The obvious problem with that is that it's implied that Jor-El was interested in Earthlings precisely because they looked similar to Kryptonians, and Kal would have an easier time fitting in amongst them than more advanced races that looked different.

  11. #86
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well in some regions of the planet that apparently was impossible. Krypton had a region with "glass" life forms, an entire mountain range made of crystalline minerals, a "flame forest"..etc... None of those areas is suitable for life as we know it.
    Exactly. I imagine there was a very narrow region (or regions) where humanoid life could evolve, where the environment and all the things that live/exist there were just barely within the parameters to allow the rise of Kryptonians.

    Well pics of the various cities are often based on the whim of the artist, but there is a lot of variation. Also: Kryptonopolis is near the Jewel Mountains, so maybe the relative ease of sourcing crystalline minerals as materials affected this?
    I'd believe that's where Krypton got started with it's crystal tech, absolutely.

    The gold mountains/volcanoes would likely be a good place for one of the neo-Silver Age aesthetics like we saw in Birthright or the New52. Those volcanoes seem to always be in a state of very mild eruption, doing nothing more than ooze liquid gold, which ironically might make it one of the more stable regions of Krypton. That'd explain why the buildings and structures are more ornamental and fragile looking that other versions of Kryptonian architecture, as well as establish the local city's main export.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #87
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Unfortunately, that means different cities can be uniform based on the artist too.

    Okay, so that fits. Kryptonopolis is the crystal one. At least they should have some buildings that use the design language of the Fortress of Solitude.

    Same with the others. Argo, Kandor... where are they located, what resources they can get nearby, who lives there, and what's their specialty informs what kind of structure and design they should have.
    Kandor is even closer to the Jewel Mountains. Argo is the other side of the continent though.

  13. #88
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    The documentary "The Death of Superman Lives: What Happened?" showcased a little of what Tim Burton was going to try to do with Krypton in his unmade film, "Superman Lives". Basically, it sounded like he was going to go for a mix of the alien vibe and aesthetic to the planet not dissimilar in my mind to Byrne and Mignola, but crucially more wondrous, and mixed with that Silver Age sense of loss, the idea that Clark knew that even as a Superman on Earth, he knew that "he missed out on being a part of something really special" by not getting to live on Krypton. I think that sounds like a very good encapsulation of a Krypton I'd have liked to see. I wish Burton had gotten the chance to make it.

    Here's some concept art.



    Woah that looks insanely cool. Very atypical Krypton. Any concept art of his Metropolis?

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    The documentary "The Death of Superman Lives: What Happened?" showcased a little of what Tim Burton was going to try to do with Krypton in his unmade film, "Superman Lives". Basically, it sounded like he was going to go for a mix of the alien vibe and aesthetic to the planet not dissimilar in my mind to Byrne and Mignola, but crucially more wondrous, and mixed with that Silver Age sense of loss, the idea that Clark knew that even as a Superman on Earth, he knew that "he missed out on being a part of something really special" by not getting to live on Krypton. I think that sounds like a very good encapsulation of a Krypton I'd have liked to see. I wish Burton had gotten the chance to make it.

    Here's some concept art.



    Cool, looks like something out of the Alien films.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    One thing that rarely gets discussed is "Why is Krypton such a weird place?"

    IIRC some stories had a legend that it was basically a gift from Rao.... and in other stories it's shown that the Kryptonian gods are real in some way. So it being an artificial construct would go a long ways to explaining why it's such a strange place. Which could in the end explain why it exploded. It's not a natural planet so it meets an unnatural end.

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