Rank in strength

[Superfan90]

Question.

Is Surfer's showing against Maestro canon?

No, it was Silver Surfer of Egyptia universe against Maestro.

[Pendaran]

No, it was Silver Surfer of Egyptia universe against Maestro.

That was a separate Surfer. The one that showed up to the Maestro was of indeterminate, and thus nonsense origin.

[Superfan90]

That was a separate Surfer. The one that showed up to the Maestro was of indeterminate, and thus nonsense origin.

Oh I forgot, it was Surfer from 2099 reality. In the end he says he has a new hulk and team he wants to meet and then shows in that book. 616 Surfer was never on battle world.

[Pendaran]

Oh I forgot, it was Surfer from 2099 reality. In the end he says he has a new hulk and team he wants to meet and then shows in that book. 616 Surfer was never on battle world.

Given that the Surfer in that series was wandering around outside the 2099 reality, it doesn't really pin him down as being from it so much as having happened to join a team in it.

616 Surfer should certainly never have been on Battleworld, and it's narratively impossible for him to be there.

But it doesn't really change that the Surfer who fought the Maestro has no especially clear point of origin.

edit: I'm not saying I consider it to be the 616 Surfer, I don't.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

S'a lot of back-bending I smell.

[Cronus]

Okayyy... and now, because there's some increasingly tortured reasoning going on in this thread, I am going to summon up the energy for debunking time, come on grab your friends, we'll go to very, clarified lands.

Lol.

Ouch.

First, The Beta Ray Bill Thing:

People seem to keep glossing over both the whole energy fists thing, and, more importantly, that we do not in fact actually see all of the fight. Yes, the Surfer was clearly dominating it by both presentation and the things we saw. Yes, Bill ended said fight in a heap at the Surfer's feet such that he's even let go of the hammer. But we have no real idea of how many hits that took. There is a point where it cuts away, and then we cut back to the ending.

Okay, but isn't Gladiator a planet buster? How many hits did it take for the planet to finally explode (I think it was like 3 or something)? I do see your point inasmuch as we really don't know how many punches Surfer threw to finally drop Bill. My inquiry then is, in light of Gladiator's classification as planet buster, what's the cut off? 3? 4 punches?

Bill was also shown capable of hurting the Surfer and knocking him about during what we saw of said exchange before the more one sided beating started happening (and to be fair to Bill it included the Surfer conking Bill in the back of the head with his board as one of his moves). More importantly, while down to the point that the Surfer was telling him not to get up, Bill was in fact capable of getting up under his own power once the fighting was over. He was still conscious. And, while we're there, Bill was at the end of it outright wreathed in energy rolling off of him as far as the effects of the beating he had inflicted on him. To say that what was going on was purely physical strength is thus at that point... a choice.

All good points, you're right. My reasoning is pretty flimsy on ,"Surfer is a planet buster post Annihilation based on the Bill showing." But here's an interesting (?) point of contention: Surfer wasn't going all out against Bill in BRB: Godhunter. I mean, he was apologizing to the guy as he beat him down. His response to Bill at one point was, "Enough! Do not rise. You cannot match me, Bill. Why do you persist?" Once might speculate, he could've amped himself even more. Did he knock out Bill who can endure planets exploding? Nope. But sure as well was hurt and clearly, the Surfer was superior to him strength wise, and as mentioned, one might surmise (how did Mr. T put it?), "I got a lotta mo'!"

Just sayin'.

But as to the smaller point....whether the beat down against Bill was also a manifestation of energy on the part of the Surfer?

I'll say that pretty much all of the Surfer's abilities are based on his ability to manipulate energy on a large scale. But the manifestation of those powers are varied. Maybe similar to Hulk right? The Hulk's powers are firstly, based on his absorption of gamma radiation, like several times over his career. But, that energy manifests itself in raw, brute strength. Granted, it's a little less clear with the Surfer because, Kirby Krackle and what not. But, indulge me for a bit though...

Like, here's the showing in FF 55:

Attachment 98620

Sure, I mean there's lots of energy stuff going on, but the dialogue between Norrin and Ben is pretty much, "I'm going to match you in strength". What I'm saying is, his drawing on the ambient energies of the universe manifested in a showing of pure strength against Ben. To me, that first showing sets the template of how we know whether or not Surfer is amping himself or not. Of course, at the bottom right, Norrin says "I'm increasing to atomic strength!", in which case the next page shows Ben not even being able to touch Norrin through a wall of energy. But clearly, they connected previously in a purely physical way on the prior page.

Then there is this:

Attachment 98621

To me, again, it's clear the Surfer increased his strength by drawing on the ambient, blah, blah. But the increase in energy manifested itself (in my opinion) in raw, brute strength. While Surfer grabs Rhino with a non glowy hand, his passive hand is glowing, signifying (to me at least), yeah, he's amped, but again manifested purely in raw, brute strength.

So, is this a good showing for the Surfer? Definitely you bet. Do I think it's a valid showing? Sure, why not?

Does it justify putting him strength wise anywhere near, say, Rebirth Supes or Thanos in terms of pure physical strength? Haaaah no.

Which, to be clear, I'm not saying at all. I was originally saying, the showing in BRB: Godhunter was evidence of that Surfer could manifest planet busting strength, but yeah. Conceded. He didn't straight up knock Bill out.

So, this whole mess of paragraphs including things like "well maybe that showing on the Sentry was valid!" and etc? It has no foundation in the first place. I'll tackle that whole structure of not well supported ideas anyway, but one of its supposed linchpins does not at all hold up in the way it is being spoken of.

Yeah, I mean, I'd have to look a little more closely at Hulk's stuff post warp core, so a general impression.

*cues, "Rocky Mountain High" in the background*

[Cronus]

Like they should have just ended with this, like this is the last time we see Shalla bal. My favorite Surfer story

Agreed. Subsequent showings were just, bleh. I mean WTF was with the armor she was wearing? Just...sigh.

[Pendaran]

Okay, but isn't Gladiator a planet buster? How many hits did it take for the planet to finally explode (I think it was like 3 or something)? I do see your point inasmuch as we really don't know how many punches Surfer threw to finally drop Bill. My inquiry then is, in light of Gladiator's classification as planet buster, what's the cut off? 3? 4 punches?

... what does this have to do with anything you're replying to that I'm saying? I'm going to be honest, this feels like a non sequitur of a reply to what I'm noting.

Which, to be clear, I'm not saying at all. I was originally saying, the showing in BRB: Godhunter was evidence of that Surfer could manifest planet busting strength, but yeah. Conceded. He didn't straight up knock Bill out.

I think you've missed the point I'm making so I'm going to try rephrasing this.

It's not really a strength showing in any pure sense.

Could the Surfer, via charging up his fists with enough visible cosmic energy that the thing he is hitting itself is flaring with energy for his hitting, do up a planet eventually? Sure, I'd believe it.

Would that be a strength showing if he did?

No. It would not. It would mostly mean some indeterminable measure of strength was involved.

To me, again, it's clear the Surfer increased his strength by drawing on the ambient, blah, blah. But the increase in energy manifested itself (in my opinion) in raw, brute strength. While Surfer grabs Rhino with a non glowy hand, his passive hand is glowing, signifying (to me at least), yeah, he's amped, but again manifested purely in raw, brute strength.

At this point your new linchpin is "well his other hand is glowing, therefore he amped his strength. In the hand he didn't use. Which is for some reason the only one that's glowing."

This does not come together in a way that makes sense.

Let me ask you this, what consistency do you feel exists in putting such importance on the Surfer's hand glowing to talk about what meaning it supports, while you completely ignore that Bill's body was entirely lit up at the end of his fight with the Surfer as he was in a keeled over heap?

But as to the smaller point....whether the beat down against Bill was also a manifestation of energy on the part of the Surfer?

.... that's not the smaller point. That's the entire point. That's the entire point to note that the Surfer taking out Bill was the Surfer essentially using energy as a melee effect around his fists, and that we don't even see all of the fight to know how many hits that took. That being the case, trying to say then that this is some clear strength showing is unsupportable.

I'll say that pretty much all of the Surfer's abilities are based on his ability to manipulate energy on a large scale. But the manifestation of those powers are varied. Maybe similar to Hulk right? The Hulk's powers are firstly, based on his absorption of gamma radiation, like several times over his career. But, that energy manifests itself in raw, brute strength. Granted, it's a little less clear with the Surfer because, Kirby Krackle and what not. But, indulge me for a bit though...

No, I don't feel like I'm going to indulge you in taking his fight with Bill and deciding every detail in it you want to ignore is optional or "small".

You're also comparing the Surfer to the Hulk? Whose powers are superstrength, durability, a variable healing factor, and also sometimes he can see ghosts and Doctor Strange's Astral form? These characters are not similar.

[Pendaran]

Okay, just for emphasis, this is how the Bill fight ended.

https://imgur.com/a/GnYG89N

Notice the pretty considerable torrent of energy coruscating both off the Surfer's fists, and down from him otherwise that wraps right around Bill. Notice it doesn't cut off until now is talky time.

Yes, the Surfer kicked his ass. Yes, it ultimately became a pretty one sided thing.

No, this is nowhere any kind of pure strength showing.

[Cronus]

I dont know man. Just sounds like you are saying Surfer is as strong as Thanos with extra steps.

I am not.

Scouts honor. Cross my heart. Hope to die.

Pen covered it

Indeed. I have been crushed by the Pen-man once again. We should make a new Rumbles rule that people with photographic memories aren't allowed to debate on Rumbles.

The thing we are arguing upon is the fine distinction. Yes, Wally can KO Superman

That's not what he says though. He says he can one shot Superman.

I see what you mean. I don't know that Wally could KO Rebirth Superman, but post Crisis Superman might be a different story.

Edit: one-shot.

Similarly, yes Surfer is a class 100. That's not I'm debating though. The question here is if he is a class 100 that can slap around planet busters casually

And this might be a disconnect in our conversations. I was originally asserting that based on Surfer's showing against Bill, Surfer was a planet buster after amping his strength. It was also a showing that occurred after the Surfer was powered up in Annihilation. So, you factoring in Norrin's showings prior to his power up in Annihilation doesn't sound like it follows. Almost like talking post Crisis Superman vs pre Crisis Superman. One is clearly not the other, because one is definitely more powerful than the other.

The immediate showing was Norrin's disposing of Ravenous after being powered up by Galactus. Prior to that, they were shown on even footing.

I dont see how unless you count the moon surf thing.

The showing against Ravenous? The showing against Bill?

Edit: I mean, no Surfer is not a planet buster strength wise because of the showing against Bill, but casually slapping around class 100's now? Why not?

Prior to Annihilation, I seem to recall Norrin did well against Hulk in Planet Hulk, until the obedience disk was removed and SS 85, didn't he do well against Wonder Man (and Storm)?

Answer: he did fine against WM and Storm, but all energy strikes. So, never mind.

Yes but pre annihilation.

Minus having my view corrected by Pen, I'm saying that even the showing Norrin had against BRB post Annihilation is a bridge too far as a scale of comparison to Thanos' showings against Tyrant and Thanos' straight up killing a guy who routinely surfs through super novas for fun.

Post that, by your own argument Surfer can match Thanos' energy. So why not his strength?

Good point. Fair enough.

[The Arbiter]

Okay, just for emphasis, this is how the Bill fight ended.

https://imgur.com/a/GnYG89N

Notice the pretty considerable torrent of energy coruscating both off the Surfer's fists, and down from him otherwise that wraps right around Bill. Notice it doesn't cut off until now is talky time.

Yes, the Surfer kicked his ass. Yes, it ultimately became a pretty one sided thing.

No, this is nowhere any kind of pure strength showing.

Can we talk about Norrin's butt for a second tho? :P

[Captain Morgan]

Can we talk about Norrin's butt for a second tho? :P

I mean if we start talking about who has the best ass of these dudes we will have to completely redo our rankings. I DEMAND SCANS

[Pendaran]

Can we talk about Norrin's butt for a second tho? :P

Real talk, up until now I thought most of your posts were in some way about wanting to talk about Norrin's butt.

[The Arbiter]

Real talk, up until now I thought most of your posts were in some way about wanting to talk about Norrin's butt.

Exploded arms distracted me for a second, but c'mon.

I mean if we start talking about who has the best ass of these dudes we will have to completely redo our rankings. I DEMAND SCANS

I mean, the winner is obvious.

[The Dork Knight]

I see what you mean. I don't know that Wally could KO Rebirth Superman, but post Crisis Superman might be a different story.

Edit: one-shot

You're saying Wally can one shot post crisis Superman? Disagree

So, you factoring in Norrin's showings prior to his power up in Annihilation doesn't sound like it follows. Almost like talking post Crisis Superman vs pre Crisis Superman. One is clearly not the other, because one is definitely more powerful than the other

Strongly disagree with the comparison between post and pre crisis Superman; and post and pre Annihilation Surfer

The immediate showing was Norrin's disposing of Ravenous after being powered up by Galactus. Prior to that, they were shown on even footing.

Prior to that, Surfer tore open a black hole while repeatedly warning Ravenous not to push his luck. Surfer flew out of the black hole immediately. Ravenous took a fair while longer , Thanos was observing.

The showing against Ravenous?

Ravenous, whose arc here ends with his skull getting cracked by Ronan was mostly outmuscling Surfer through the fights although he was holding back to begin with in the first one. Not the greatest display of Surfers physical strength

Prior to Annihilation, I seem to recall Norrin did well against Hulk in Planet Hulk

The fight has way too many caveats