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  1. #136
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    The showing against Ravenous? The showing against Bill?

    Edit: I mean, no Surfer is not a planet buster strength wise because of the showing against Bill, but casually slapping around class 100's now? Why not?
    Because the showing against Bill, /again/, is not any kind of pure strength showing. You cannot use it to claim such things.

    Prior to that, they were shown on even footing.
    When the Surfer spends a chunk of that fight demonstrably not wanting to fight... not really.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-11-2020 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #137
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I mean, the winner is obvious.
    Arbiter's confirmed it.

    Surfer is dummy thicc.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  3. #138
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Oh good grief.

    So...for the record, I will go along with Rumbles community in its interpretation of the showing of Bill going forward, which appears to be: it was not a clean feat in terms of strength. It was as much, if not more, an energy strike.

    I'm completely fine with that interpretation. It's a tiny point of contention anyway against the backdrop of final results and not a hill worth dying on.

    But for the record, I disagree with the interpretation of SS dropping Bill with a combo energy/physical strike .

    Also, for the record, I'm more inclined to go along with @Beadle's explanation of the "pecking order". His is more well thought out than mine, and likely more accurate (post 58).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    ... what does this have to do with anything you're replying to that I'm saying? I'm going to be honest, this feels like a non sequitur of a reply to what I'm noting.
    Well, my question is why should it feel that way?

    My point is: when do we define a "planet buster" in terms of striking power? That seemed to be part of what you were (are) driving at. Did you say this? Because that is what I was driving at. Originally. That point (that SS is a planet buster in pure physical strength) is withdrawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    But we have no real idea of how many hits that took. There is a point where it cuts away, and then we cut back to the ending. Bill was also shown capable of hurting the Surfer and knocking him about during what we saw of said exchange before the more one sided beating started happening (and to be fair to Bill it included the Surfer conking Bill in the back of the head with his board as one of his moves). More importantly, while down to the point that the Surfer was telling him not to get up, Bill was in fact capable of getting up under his own power once the fighting was over. He was still conscious.
    The above is what I was referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I think you've missed the point I'm making so I'm going to try rephrasing this.
    Okie doke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    It's not really a strength showing in any pure sense.
    Previous, in post 59 you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    When Surfer has charges of energy around his fists to the point that it's rolling off of them into space, that's not a pure strength showing.
    Okay. So when you said this in post 60...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    And, while we're there, Bill was at the end of it outright wreathed in energy rolling off of him as far as the effects of the beating he had inflicted on him. To say that what was going on was purely physical strength is thus at that point... a choice.
    I thought you were reversing yourself and saying the scene was open to interpretation as to physical or energy damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Could the Surfer, via charging up his fists with enough visible cosmic energy that the thing he is hitting itself is flaring with energy for his hitting, do up a planet eventually? Sure, I'd believe it.
    Yeah, you don't have to sell me on that point. If he can do it with just energy strikes, then it's not a stretch to say he could do a combo(?) energy strike/physical punch of some sort. So, no, not a bridge too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Would that be a strength showing if he did?

    No. It would not. It would mostly mean some indeterminable measure of strength was involved.
    I see clearly what you mean. But it becomes less clear if, when the first time the Surfer amps himself, he does this:


    surfer-energyorstrength.jpg

    The dialogue says he was amping his strength.

    Yes or no?

    Yet, Ben is entirely encased in energy.

    Just like Bill was.

    And honestly, how that is demonstrated from one writer/artist team to the next...will vary over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    At this point your new linchpin is "well his other hand is glowing, therefore he amped his strength. In the hand he didn't use. Which is for some reason the only one that's glowing."

    This does not come together in a way that makes sense.
    Why doesn't it? One hand is glowing while the other is clearly not. It's almost as if the artist was trying to convey that that was precisely a strength showing, albeit amping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Let me ask you this,
    Shoot Luke, or drop your pistol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    what consistency do you feel exists in putting such importance on the Surfer's hand glowing to talk about what meaning it supports, while you completely ignore that Bill's body was entirely lit up at the end of his fight with the Surfer as he was in a keeled over heap?
    It's really not an important point. But if I'm being subjected to the Inquisitions, then I suppose I'll stand my ground. Is that a problem?

    I'm saying based on his first "amping" and how that was conveyed in FF 55 and this subsequent one, it's not apparently clear that strength wasn't the only thing that was amped in SS 54. I mean after all, the hand grabbing the Rhino had no energy around it right?

    Also, was he hitting Rhino or simply stopping him in his footsteps?

    At any rate, I don't know that I would use the word consistency when it comes to how different writers and artists combine to demonstrate the guy amping his strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    .... that's not the smaller point. That's the entire point. That's the entire point to note that the Surfer taking out Bill was the Surfer essentially using energy as a melee effect around his fists, and that we don't even see all of the fight to know how many hits that took. That being the case, trying to say then that this is some clear strength showing is unsupportable.
    If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    No, I don't feel like I'm going to indulge you in taking his fight with Bill and deciding every detail in it you want to ignore is optional or "small".
    I'm not ignoring it.

    But you are ignoring my point it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You're also comparing the Surfer to the Hulk?
    I am. Is that a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Whose powers are superstrength, durability, a variable healing factor, and also sometimes he can see ghosts and Doctor Strange's Astral form? These characters are not similar.
    Okay John Wayne. But don't forget gamma bursts while you're at it.

    I'm saying they're similar inasmuch as their powers are both energy based and they can both increase strength, the Hulk by getting angry. The Surfer by simply willing it.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-11-2020 at 08:37 PM.
    "Before I met you, I'd go whole days without massacring a bunch of things. Honest."

  4. #139
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    But for the record, I disagree with the interpretation of SS dropping Bill with a combo energy/physical strike .
    .... despite the scan, posted right for you, of the end of that fight? Then at this point you are disagreeing with comics.

    Well, my question is why should it feel that way?
    Because my post was to debunk the Bill fight as a strength showing instead of something where the Surfer is using energy to combine with his strikes, a showing where at that we don't even actually see the full fight for how it goes, and in response to that you started talking about Gladiator and planet busting. That's what a non sequitur is.

    I see clearly what you mean.
    Except that no, you can't possibly, because then you post this right after:

    But it becomes less clear if, when the first time the Surfer amps himself, he does this:
    But I'm going to take a minute and focus on something:

    So...for the record, I will go along with Rumbles community in its interpretation of the showing of Bill going forward, which appears to be: it was not a clean feat in terms of strength. It was as much, if not more, an energy strike.
    No you're not, you spend this entire post arguing with it.

    I'm completely fine with that interpretation
    No you're not, you go on to keep arguing with it, as demonstrated.

    It's a tiny point of contention anyway against the backdrop of final results and not a hill worth dying on.
    It's blatantly important enough to you to keep replying and keep arguing with.

    So before I continue onwards, what is it you think you are doing right now with the content of your posts? This is not a rhetorical question. Nothing I have said is rhetorical.

    It is making it difficult to reply to you at all when you treat the content of your own sentences and the words you use in them this way.

    Do you want me to reply about why the Ben showing is entirely irrelevant to the Bill one? If you do, it seems like no, in fact, you totally want to keep arguing this whole thing. Which, hey sure, but if that's so, it makes all the things you say beforehand come off as super disingenuous.

    You can't actually say "I am fine with accepting a thing" then spend your entire post, arguing with that thing. That's not how the concepts underlying the usage of those words work.

    So which is it?
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-11-2020 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #140
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    You know what, despite that your posts are verging on incomprehensibility in reconciling even with the statements within a single post you make, I'll take a stab at it anyway.

    But it becomes less clear if, when the first time the Surfer amps himself, he does this:


    Attachment 98630

    The dialogue says he was amping his strength.

    Yes or no?

    Yet, Ben is entirely encased in energy.

    Just like Bill was.

    And honestly, how that is demonstrated from one writer/artist team to the next...will vary over time.
    This is nothing like the Bill showing, where we see Bill, outright, at the Surfer's feet, beaten up, a column of energy suffusing him from the Surfer, that does not go away until the Surfer decides it is talky time. Whereas with Ben he both specifically makes mention that he is increasing his strength, and more to the point? The energies around him for doing so aren't actually hurting Ben. They're functionally just sidescatter of him overall powering up. We see him immersed in them with the Surfer at one point and it's the Surfer's fists doing the talking. Compare this outright to a fight where we see the Surfer's energy wreathed smack into Bill again and again. Compare this outright to a fight where Bill being wreathed in energy from the Surfer has made Bill into a bloody mess at the Surfer's feet.

    To use the words "just like Bill was" is to basically decide two things that are not like each other, are the same anyway, because you say so, despite visual evidence to the contrary.

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