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  1. #46
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I'm going to be real here, I'm now in fact sad Superman both can't and hasn't done that now.
    I am now too, honestly. Might actually get me back into reading comics weekly.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arxiros "Arx" Inosaan | Inanna

  2. #47
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I'm going to be real here, I'm now in fact sad Superman both can't and hasn't done that now.
    Yeah, but are you legit certain that PC Superman actually didn’t?

    Y’know, just before marrying Jimmy Olsen to a gorilla at the end of the universe and giving them a necklace of planets that he’d sneezed there as a wedding present.

  3. #48
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Yeah, but are you legit certain that PC Superman actually didn’t?

    Y’know, just before marrying Jimmy Olsen to a gorilla at the end of the universe and giving them a necklace of planets that he’d sneezed there as a wedding present.
    Might make sense.

    Took his own arms off so they could sit on the Groom's side and clap when Superman pronounced them Man, and Gorilla.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arxiros "Arx" Inosaan | Inanna

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Yeah, but are you legit certain that PC Superman actually didn’t?

    Y’know, just before marrying Jimmy Olsen to a gorilla at the end of the universe and giving them a necklace of planets that he’d sneezed there as a wedding present.
    If he hasn't, I think we have found the greatest tragedy in comics.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Is Thanos supposed to be above many other Marvel characters in Strength? I know it was said that he once fought off both the Thing and Thor simultaneously for an extended period of time. Where would he fit in the range?

    What about Count Nefaria? He was supposed to have Power Man's strength, bought up to Cl 100 and multiplied 100 times when he first faced the Avengers. Would this put Nefaria at the top of the list?

    Kurse was said to be 4-5 times stronger than Thor. How does he compare with the others?

  6. #51
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Is Thanos supposed to be above many other Marvel characters in Strength? I know it was said that he once fought off both the Thing and Thor simultaneously for an extended period of time. Where would he fit in the range?

    What about Count Nefaria? He was supposed to have Power Man's strength, bought up to Cl 100 and multiplied 100 times when he first faced the Avengers. Would this put Nefaria at the top of the list?

    Kurse was said to be 4-5 times stronger than Thor. How does he compare with the others?
    Thanos best down original Drax who killed a star bare handed and won against the Champion. Has had dust fights where the planets exploded.

    Yeah he is really up there in raw strength.

  7. #52
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Things where the Surfer asks his board to "work him with him" are dubious and it gets into the murky territory of whether or not to count Surfer's board as a physical body part, and then to the times it's been destroyed and such
    Of course there's also the idea that Surfer asking his board to work with him is just his melodramatic equivalent of saying something like "feet don't fail me now!"


    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    His board has been destroyed multiple times without it affecting him. If the board and Surfer are truly one, then he should feel...some pain from it?
    You're hair and your toenails are part of you, but you don't really feel pain when they're cut.

  8. #53
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Yeah the Bosrd is a part of Surfer. It’s like a Foci or Pact device that Surfer treats as part of himself ( Yeah D&D nerd me considers Norton a Warlock, Galactus is his patron.)

  9. #54
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    To begin with, the fights against Sentry and Hercules. Yes they were holding back or what have you but nonetheless the Hulk's blows clearly did a lot more than what they had done previously against such opponents

    One way of looking at it is by saying " Oh but now the Hulk really is the strongest there is"

    So, I originally said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Mmm, but I don't recall Hulk's performances against enemies post warp core explosion to be anything above stuff he did prior to the same enemies? Can you think of any examples? I mean, the basis is there, but I don't recall anything remarkable beyond what he had already done against the same opponents. With the Surfer (post-Annihilation), he fought Bill who is a bona fide planet buster. When he fought Hulk in planet Hulk, that was pre-warp core breach and around the same time Annihilation happened, although, honestly, I'm not sure what took place first, Annihilation or Planet Hulk. It would make it track easier if Annihilation happened prior to Planet Hulk, but I'm unsure is what I'm saying.
    I don't believe the Hulk has limitless strength, and I feel the same way about the Surfer.

    I'm on the fence I suppose about WW Hulk vs Sentry fight as to a legitimate performance by Hulk. You're right, that was a post warp core performance, but previously, in Sentry's 2005 mini, the Sentry casually puts up one hand against Terrax and literally freezes the guy mid swing. Like...no effort whatsoever. Now was Terrax delivering a planet busting strike against Sentry? The context would indicate no, since IIRC, he was there to claim earth as his own. On the other hand, WW Hulk was technically not at planet busting levels yet either when he faced Sentry in WW Hulk, since a feat for busting a planet didn't come from him until Heart of the Monster. Also, the Sentry's alter ego effortlessly broke every bone in Hulk's body, although, definitely a pre-warp core showing. It should also be noted that the driving force behind WW Hulk's display of strength in World War Hulk was his (wait for it, wait for it....), he was the angriest he has been up to that point in time. While I have seen the warp core explosion cited as legit reasons for Hulk performances post Planet Hulk, I've always been of the mind Hulk's greatest asset is still how his level of anger impacts his strength and not the warp core explosion.

    As far as Hercules, Hulk slapped Hercules around along with Namor, Iron Man and Wonder Man in way back in IH 315, so the Hercules comparison I'm not sold on.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Slade though has an older record of reacting to Flashes right from his introduction. You might as well say "well but Slade has always reacted to the Flash whenever he has needed to" as opposed to "yeah but Surfer has amped himself up to match his opponents whenever he has needed to" regardless of both having or not having independent feats
    Again, there's a basis for my drawing that conclusion. Slade has literally no "stand alone" feats of FTL reaction/combat feats. Nor has he ever been categorized that way. Wally West on the other hand? God of Speed Wally West?

    Need I say more?

    For the record, I don't think the Surfer was "powered up" in Annihilation so much as whatever "inhibitors" Galactus placed on Norrin way back in FF 50 were removed by Galactus in Annihilation. He was "forgiven" and was able to realize his full potential is how I read the conversation between Galactus and Norrin in Annihilation. It should also be noted that Surfer was able to match Thanos' energy signature in Annihilation to unlock Galactus from being a cosmic level battery. Not saying he's as strong, but there are legit reasons to believe Norrin's base level of strength? Might be a stretch higher than it was previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    It just seems like that's a roundabout way of saying "The surfer is as strong as he needs to be"
    That's not what I'm saying. Norrin definitely has his limits. I'm saying his base level of power is greater than it was before. I don't think the Surfer was ever a planet buster strength wise before Annihilation. The things that happened in Annihilation (like slapping Ravenous around who in the same story, was previously his equal), the energy signature thing...and the subsequent beat down of Bill, leads me to believe that if the Surfer amps himself, he may well be a "head taller" than BRB in strength.

    Just my take.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Let me give you a comparison. So the Flashes and such, have the IMP right? We know it's in the class 100 range from KOing, hurting class 100s. Punching people into orbit or hundreds of miles away

    But do we take the statements of "can one shot Superman/ white dwarf" stuff literally? No we dont. We express a healthy deal of skepticism, pending something like the Flash actually one shotting a moon or something
    Mmm, yeah but I actually thing Wally West could've legit knocked out post Crisis Superman, so. And no, I never thought Wally West's punches actually had the impact of a white dwarf star.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Like I said, thats just a roundabout way of saying "Surfer is as strong as he needs to be"
    But I'm not pushing that. I'm saying Norrin's top end post Annihilation exceeds anything he did prior as a show of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Consider this. Surfer hasn't exactly ever tried punching Thanos. Let's say tomorrow some writer has him punch out Thanos. Would you then say Surfer is physically stronger than Thanos? I mean maybe all this while he just never thought of "amping up his strength" enough to pound the old Titan senseless. Certainly not "post-Annihilation"
    Yeah, but Thanos legit beat Surfer to death, and he has physically engaged Tyrant, the same guy that took on several heralds, Jack of Hearts and Gladiator...and mopped the floor with all of them. So, no...I would have a hard time buying it if a writer had Surfer knock out Thanos by punching him. Post Annihilation, my guess is Thanos ("I'm advancing against Gungnir on a day Odin one shots Drax and the Surfer") still kicks Surfer's ass in raw brute strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    By the logic you're advancing, despite having many appearances and solo series, we dont really need something independent for Surfer if he can just "amp up his strength" to match the opponent.
    This point, I can see, sure. Maybe I'm leaping too much.

    tbcont
    "Before I met you, I'd go whole days without massacring a bunch of things. Honest."

  10. #55
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    So...how strong? What is the cut-off before it becomes a no limits fallacy?
    I'm not the most articulate individual, so believe when I say I'm not advancing this idea. Where's the cut-off? Somewhere over Beta Ray Bill, a legit planet buster.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    This is not a good comparison, since Black Adam has a fraction of Surfer's appearances. But in them he does things like approach the speed of light (on his own) and throw down with Superman on a day Superman is saying his punch will split a moon in half. He also has a tesseract the size of a football field opened up in his brain and continues to be...not dead
    So where do you place the Surfer strength wise pre Annihilation? Because to me, the guy was a legit class 100 before Annihilation. And honestly, if we are evaluating showings of strength post Annihilation, and given it's clear the guy was amping himself, how many physical confrontations with other class 100s does Norrin have, aside from in Fraction's Thor?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    In the case of Adam, we scale off Captain marvel, the dude who had his own series (despite again a fraction of Surfers appearances). Captain Marvel does things stalemate Superman in an arm wrestling competition twice, the second time lasting more than an hour. He continues functioning after being turned inside out. Is part of a group (including Superman) that moves the moon. Moves at the speed of light. Moves fast enough to rearrange global weather patterns in a couple of panels. Has Superman comment that they have the same speed, strength after possession Captain Marvel's body

    It's not all "scaling". Its quite a few independent feats for such a limited number of appearances, even for Adam. And Adam's scaling is done off someone with pretty much the same powers.
    But again, I don't recall Black Adam having a power up of some sort like the Surfer did in Annihilation do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Again, not quite true. The Martian Manhunter helps pull the earth.
    Okay, yeah. I forgot that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Blitzes towers in different continents in the same panel. Observes and avoids radio waves (alongside Superman). Has telepthatic conversations that last less than 1/6th of a second inside Supermans mind. We have white martians that have races across the world with the Flash
    Well, not the best of comparisons maybe? I don't remember the avoiding of radio waves thing with J'onn, which in turn would suggest FTL reflexes....which I don't believe MM has. And white Martians legitimately on a par with Wally West? Not really. I mean, the narration in Morrison's JLA was the white Martians where somewhere around Superman level.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    So no, none of these examples are comparable to saying Surfer can easily beat up a herald level character with his fists, because he threw a spaceship or punched someone a long distance once.
    I see where you're coming from, but none of the instances you cite factor in a power up of some sort from a guy who I think everyone already believed was somewhere in the class 100 range.
    "Before I met you, I'd go whole days without massacring a bunch of things. Honest."

  11. #56
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    As to the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    If Superman (Reborn and after) is 100 in strength, rank the below in strength :

    Classic Thor
    Gladiator
    Silver Surfer
    Thanos
    So, are we now saying (Rebirth) Superman is a bonafide planet buster? That's the feel I get. Honestly, I need to catch up, but from the sounds of it...pretty much yeah?

    So, Rebirth Clark being "100"....

    So, I would say...

    Classic Thor - 50 (isn't there evidence that Mjolnir adds significantly to Thor's striking power?)

    Gladiator - 100

    Silver Surfer - no amp? 50 I suppose. Amp? If Rumbles feels the amping against Bill was legit...100.

    Thanos - 125

    IDK, I'm sure I'm forgetting feats...
    "Before I met you, I'd go whole days without massacring a bunch of things. Honest."

  12. #57
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    His board has been destroyed multiple times without it affecting him. If the board and Surfer are truly one, then he should feel...some pain from it?

    Idk, it seems a leap too far as a mere physical extension of Surfer.
    It's a metaphorical reference ("one"). The Surfer telepathically directs the board. It's like having another set of legs is the reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Especially when he has treated many times like Mjolnir or a separate reservoir of energy as in...asking it to work with him while moving the moon. You dont really see Hulk or Superman asking their arms to work with them
    Well, the board can do that, because like Mjolnir, it isn't physically attached. Nevertheless, the Surfer moves around on his telepathically controlled board like he was moving around on his feat.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Well that's mostly my bone of contention here. Surfers strong but not to the point he should physically slapping around people in that league
    What about Colossus? Should he be slapping him around? Or Iron Man (is he still class 100 in his armor?)? How about his showing against Firelord in SS 146. The same Firelord who needed to be taken down by Thor and Hercules in Thor 225 (I think?).
    "Before I met you, I'd go whole days without massacring a bunch of things. Honest."

  13. #58
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    As to the OP



    So, are we now saying (Rebirth) Superman is a bonafide planet buster? That's the feel I get. Honestly, I need to catch up, but from the sounds of it...pretty much yeah?
    Very much so, yeah. From what I hear his feats are getting pretty silly again. Into sorta mid-tier PC Supes nonsense in some cases. Not the very tip-toppermost PC ridiculousness, but pretty up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    So, Rebirth Clark being "100"....

    So, I would say...

    Classic Thor - 50 (isn't there evidence that Mjolnir adds significantly to Thor's striking power?)
    Striking power, yes. Strength, not so much (if we ignore the Aaron-nerfing, where Thor became the equivalent of Drunk Hobo Zuras. Or possibly TNG Worf, depending on your perspective.

    Otherwise I’d probably go slightly higher than 50. Maybe an 80?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Gladiator - 100
    Given how batshit (or should it be supershit?) Supes is now, I’d probably drop Glads slightly to 90-95.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Silver Surfer - no amp? 50 I suppose. Amp? If Rumbles feels the amping against Bill was legit...100.
    I feel like we’re in the 70 category, but YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Thanos - 125

    IDK, I'm sure I'm forgetting feats...
    In pure strength, I probably wouldn’t put Thanos above Rebirth Supes, so I’d just go 100. It’s just that Thanos’ durability and esoterica mean he’d go over Supes in a fight.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Silver Surfer - no amp? 50 I suppose. Amp? If Rumbles feels the amping against Bill was legit...100.
    When Surfer has charges of energy around his fists to the point that it's rolling off of them into space, that's not a pure strength showing.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Okayyy... and now, because there's some increasingly tortured reasoning going on in this thread, I am going to summon up the energy for debunking time, come on grab your friends, we'll go to very, clarified lands.

    First, The Beta Ray Bill Thing:

    People seem to keep glossing over both the whole energy fists thing, and, more importantly, that we do not in fact actually see all of the fight. Yes, the Surfer was clearly dominating it by both presentation and the things we saw. Yes, Bill ended said fight in a heap at the Surfer's feet such that he's even let go of the hammer. But we have no real idea of how many hits that took. There is a point where it cuts away, and then we cut back to the ending. Bill was also shown capable of hurting the Surfer and knocking him about during what we saw of said exchange before the more one sided beating started happening (and to be fair to Bill it included the Surfer conking Bill in the back of the head with his board as one of his moves). More importantly, while down to the point that the Surfer was telling him not to get up, Bill was in fact capable of getting up under his own power once the fighting was over. He was still conscious. And, while we're there, Bill was at the end of it outright wreathed in energy rolling off of him as far as the effects of the beating he had inflicted on him. To say that what was going on was purely physical strength is thus at that point... a choice.

    So, is this a good showing for the Surfer? Definitely you bet. Do I think it's a valid showing? Sure, why not?

    Does it justify putting him strength wise anywhere near, say, Rebirth Supes or Thanos in terms of pure physical strength? Haaaah no.

    So, this whole mess of paragraphs including things like "well maybe that showing on the Sentry was valid!" and etc? It has no foundation in the first place. I'll tackle that whole structure of not well supported ideas anyway, but one of its supposed linchpins does not at all hold up in the way it is being spoken of.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-11-2020 at 03:42 AM.

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