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  1. #31
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    His fight with Gladiator is non continuity, to note.
    Ok then, so that's what I thought. Thank you.

    Anyway, here is the problem with the Surfer and strength showings. Like, say, Thanos, for the most part all we really have are fights to go with trying to figure something out from. He's presented as being powerful and crap with some degree of strength as part of that package.

    Where you go from there is thorny.
    But I mean, the guy, right out of the box, dusts off the original Drax, who later rips a star in half along with destroying a planet in the same issue (CM as I recall). To me, everything thereafter fits nicely and makes total sense. Thor and the Thing at the same time? No sweat. Thor with the power gem? Sure thing. Tyrant? Why not! At least that's my take.

    The bigger problem compared to Thanos is that the Surfer has shown up so many more times in comics and done stuff to the point that not having what to work with outside of fights is almost kind of infuriating and baffling.
    Honestly, as much as I like uber powerful beings shaking up the planet with punches and what not, I rather prefer the Surfer zipping in like an F-22 and zapping everything around him. Aside from that aesthetic note, personally? I don't have a problem with "doesn't have a lot of showings to go off of strength wise" because he has so many other powers to use, and in fact, mostly does other stuff. I'm cool with it just based on that.

    Here are the clearest strength feats I can think of for the Surfer, and one of them is kinda not that clear:

    He did a one handed overpower of the Rhino, grabbing him by the horn casually.
    Yeah, that was pretty cool too,

    I suppose where I might have a question is, "what exactly is his baseline" that someone already touched on. Early on, like I say, he seemed fairly pedestrian by today's standard of super strong characters. But like, the showing you mention in SS 54, he straight up no sells Rhino, like effortlessly.....who as I recall is headed toward class 100 town, but decidedly, not in that category. And Norrin's doing the glowy hand thing as CaptainMorgan called it, with Rhino. I suppose what I mean is, writers seem to differ as to when the Surfer needs to amp himself to equal or surpass a given opponent in strength. I will say, the fact that the writer had him do it against Bill, makes it seem more legit to me, since the Surfer had not physically outdone a planet busting class 100 prior to this showing.

    He sort of.. embedded his board into a moon, and then got on the moon, and then surfed said moon into Galactus. It was weird honestly. When weakened, he threw Galactus' incubator ship across interstellar distances.
    He also did this

    Defenders 3.1, vol. 4 - Surfer redirects huge ship.jpg

    and

    Defenders 3.2, vol. 4 - Surfer carries ship to Saturn then throws it.jpg

    So, seems to line up pretty well?

    So, is the Surfer in some kind of place of class 100 strength? Sure. Where in that place?

    Bleahgh. Good luck.
    I don't have a problem with his higher end showings and calling him, "stronger than a planet buster when he chooses to be". Aside from "what's his baseline? when does he actually need to amp?" He's a pretty strong guy when he chooses to be that.

    I mean, to me it's kinda like Black Adam. It seems a lot of his stuff strength and speed wise is done off scaling. And not a ton of feats either. But, it lines up pretty well with, "he's super strong and super fast is the guy's power set". I guess I mean, we accept certain things about certain characters as a reasonable thereabouts based on what appear to be fewer showings. Martian Manhunter is another we do scaling with for strength and speed feats. He seems pretty well into post crisis Superman camp (as is Adam), and largely these things are scaled. I don't have a problem calling Surfer high end strength wise based off pretty much the same. Scaling.
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  2. #32
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Mmm, but I don't recall Hulk's performances against enemies post warp core explosion to be anything above stuff he did prior to the same enemies? Can you think of any examples?
    To begin with, the fights against Sentry and Hercules. Yes they were holding back or what have you but nonetheless the Hulk's blows clearly did a lot more than what they had done previously against such opponents

    One way of looking at it is by saying " Oh but now the Hulk really is the strongest there is"

    I mean, I feel like an apples to oranges comparison is being made here? Deathstroke AFAIK, was never powered up and most certainly not powered to the tune of "I'm as fast as Wally West", so I'm thinking the comparison might not be there
    Slade though has an older record of reacting to Flashes right from his introduction. You might as well say "well but Slade has always reacted to the Flash whenever he has needed to" as opposed to "yeah but Surfer has amped himself up to match his opponents whenever he has needed to" regardless of both having or not having independent feats

    It just seems like that's a roundabout way of saying "The surfer is as strong as he needs to be"

    Mmm, I see what you mean, but at the same time Surfer is not known for routinely using raw brute strength and expressing it through fisticuffs routinely. I mean, dude has how many super powers
    Let me give you a comparison. So the Flashes and such, have the IMP right? We know it's in the class 100 range from KOing, hurting class 100s. Punching people into orbit or hundreds of miles away

    But do we take the statements of "can one shot Superman/ white dwarf" stuff literally? No we dont. We express a healthy deal of skepticism, pending something like the Flash actually one shotting a moon or something

    We could then dismiss the lower showing you mention against (Fraction's) Thor because he did not rely on amping his strength
    Like I said, thats just a roundabout way of saying "Surfer is as strong as he needs to be"

    Consider this. Surfer hasn't exactly ever tried punching Thanos. Let's say tomorrow some writer has him punch out Thanos. Would you then say Surfer is physically stronger than Thanos? I mean maybe all this while he just never thought of "amping up his strength" enough to pound the old Titan senseless. Certainly not "post-Annihilation"

    By the logic you're advancing, despite having many appearances and solo series, we dont really need something independent for Surfer if he can just "amp up his strength" to match the opponent.

  3. #33
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    He's a pretty strong guy when he chooses to be that.
    So...how strong? What is the cut-off before it becomes a no limits fallacy?

    I mean, to me it's kinda like Black Adam. It seems a lot of his stuff strength and speed wise is done off scaling.
    This is not a good comparison, since Black Adam has a fraction of Surfer's appearances. But in them he does things like approach the speed of light (on his own) and throw down with Superman on a day Superman is saying his punch will split a moon in half. He also has a tesseract the size of a football field opened up in his brain and continues to be...not dead

    And not a ton of feats either. But, it lines up pretty well with, "he's super strong and super fast is the guy's power set". I guess I mean, we accept certain things about certain characters as a reasonable thereabouts based on what appear to be fewer showings.
    In the case of Adam, we scale off Captain marvel, the dude who had his own series (despite again a fraction of Surfers appearances). Captain Marvel does things stalemate Superman in an arm wrestling competition twice, the second time lasting more than an hour. He continues functioning after being turned inside out. Is part of a group (including Superman) that moves the moon. Moves at the speed of light. Moves fast enough to rearrange global weather patterns in a couple of panels. Has Superman comment that they have the same speed, strength after possession Captain Marvel's body

    It's not all "scaling". Its quite a few independent feats for such a limited number of appearances, even for Adam. And Adam's scaling is done off someone with pretty much the same powers.

    Martian Manhunter is another we do scaling with for strength and speed feats. He seems pretty well into post crisis Superman camp (as is Adam), and largely these things are scaled. I don't have a problem calling Surfer high end strength wise based off pretty much the same. Scaling.
    Again, not quite true. The Martian Manhunter helps pull the earth. Blitzes towers in different continents in the same panel. Observes and avoids radio waves (alongside Superman). Has telepthatic conversations that last less than 1/6th of a second inside Supermans mind. We have white martians that have races across the world with the Flash

    So no, none of these examples are comparable to saying Surfer can easily beat up a herald level character with his fists, because he threw a spaceship or punched someone a long distance once.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    And Norrin's doing the glowy hand thing as CaptainMorgan called it, with Rhino.
    Not really. The hand he grabbed and overpowered the Rhino with t'weren't glowing.

    So no, none of these examples are comparable to saying Surfer can easily beat up a herald level character with his fists, because he threw a spaceship or punched someone a long distance once.
    To be fair, throwing such stuff outside of a solar system (apparently twice now I suppose) is a decent class 100 thing. That and and the moon thing and the Rhino thing, and presentation, I'm comfortable along with some of his fights with noting that certainly the Surfer sits somewhere fairly decent enough in the class 100 crowd strength wise.

    Where specifically though? Bleeeehhhhhhhhhh.

    I wouldn't for instance say he's physically strong as Gladiator.

  5. #35
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    Just to be clear, I'm quite fine with putting Surfer somewhere fairly decent among the class 100 crowd. Again, to use the comparison with the Flashes though, while the IMP should be taken as decent proof of class 100 hurting power, we should be leery of its descriptions or statements attributed to it and question instances of actually one shot KOing class 100s when it otherwise does not have as clear cut feats in that range

    To be fair, throwing such stuff outside of a solar system (apparently twice now I suppose) is a decent class 100 thing.
    Post crisis Superman has done that and I wouldn't peg him as someone casually beating down Beta Ray Bill with an apology

    That and and the moon thing
    Things where the Surfer asks his board to "work him with him" are dubious and it gets into the murky territory of whether or not to count Surfer's board as a physical body part, and then to the times it's been destroyed and such

  6. #36
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    Or to put it another way.
    Orion has superspeed
    Orion hasn't been blitzed by Superman
    Orion reacts to light ray
    Orion is stated to be equal in every way to Superman

    This means Orion is also near lightspeed speedster

    Something like that

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Things where the Surfer asks his board to "work him with him" are dubious and it gets into the murky territory of whether or not to count Surfer's board as a physical body part, and then to the times it's been destroyed and such
    He's remade the thing out of himself and there's a lot of "my board and I are one!" crap littered across his career. I mostly find it weird for the whole "Surfing the moon" aspect.

    Post crisis Superman has done that and I wouldn't peg him as someone casually beating down Beta Ray Bill with an apology
    Yeah, but if he's charging his fists up such that energy is rolling off of them in waves (which it was by the end of it), that's not a pure strength performance anyway.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    He's remade the thing out of himself and there's a lot of "my board and I are one!" crap littered across his career. I mostly find it weird for the whole "Surfing the moon" aspect.
    His board has been destroyed multiple times without it affecting him. If the board and Surfer are truly one, then he should feel...some pain from it?

    Idk, it seems a leap too far as a mere physical extension of Surfer. Especially when he has treated many times like Mjolnir or a separate reservoir of energy as in...asking it to work with him while moving the moon. You dont really see Hulk or Superman asking their arms to work with them

    Yeah, but if he's charging his fists up such that energy is rolling off of them in waves (which it was by the end of it), that's not a pure strength performance anyway.
    Well that's mostly my bone of contention here. Surfers strong but not to the point he should physically slapping around people in that league

  9. #39
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    Surfer, while weakened, still managed to slap around Hulk and his entire Warbound with nothing but physical attacks, IIRC.

    He also once laid the Super Skrull flat with a single punch.

  10. #40
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    And there’s that She-Hulk “This young lady appears to have bumped into me” thing, but that’s probably a grey area between strength and durability.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Well that's mostly my bone of contention here. Surfers strong but not to the point he should physically slapping around people in that league
    My note for it would essentially be Captain Morgan's. It's not a pure physical showing. It's basically if anything the Surfer doing a cosmic powered iron fist. We see energy trails in the wake even from his first punch. When we cut back and he's later standing over Bill with the fight over, both fists are now considerably charged up, etc.

    His board has been destroyed multiple times without it affecting him. If the board and Surfer are truly one, then he should feel...some pain from it?

    Idk, it seems a leap too far as a mere physical extension of Surfer. Especially when he has treated many times like Mjolnir or a separate reservoir of energy as in...asking it to work with him while moving the moon. You dont really see Hulk or Superman asking their arms to work with them
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness.

    I just consider it a sort of oddly unique situation with the Surfer and his board that doesn't analogize well to much else. And like I say, enough "we are one and this is a crucial part of my being!" junk exists out there.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    I'm gonna preface this by saying I actually think Dork and I pretty much agree on where we place Surfer here (Or rather, that we can't quite place him anywhere) and there isn't a lot of blue sky between the opinions of almost anyone in this thread.

    I mean, I feel like an apples to oranges comparison is being made here? Deathstroke AFAIK, was never powered up and most certainly not powered to the tune of "I'm as fast as Wally West", so I'm thinking the comparison might not be there
    Slade though has an older record of reacting to Flashes right from his introduction. You might as well say "well but Slade has always reacted to the Flash whenever he has needed to" as opposed to "yeah but Surfer has amped himself up to match his opponents whenever he has needed to" regardless of both having or not having independent feats

    It just seems like that's a roundabout way of saying "The surfer is as strong as he needs to be"
    I don't think this analogy holds up. Not because of the nebulous "power up" from Annihilation. But because unlike Slade, Surfer actually has "can be as strong as he needs to be" sort of baked into his powerset. There is a difference between saying that someone who can amp his strength with cosmic energy and blow up planets with cosmic energy can probably amp his strength up to a similar degree, versus a mostly human guy tagging the Flash.

    Now, Surfer, obviously has limits both in comics and rumbles. And he doesn't have any actual feats of getting to that planetary bench press or punch out level. But he also doesn't really need to do that in his stories when he can just zap people. Only time he would need to get that strong is if he fought someone who absorbs blasts like Terrax did in Annihilation. (Which is also a good example of a herald making themself real strong.)

  13. #43
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Yeah given Power Cosmic allows you to do damn near anything, including shape changing others, amping yourself up is a good factor in SS strength.

    Also the Surfer is like the strongest Herald right or darn near close? ( cannot keep track any more) so him using it to make himself class 100 is a reasonable feat via power cosmic skill.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    My note for it would essentially be Captain Morgan's. It's not a pure physical showing. It's basically if anything the Surfer doing a cosmic powered iron fist. We see energy trails in the wake even from his first punch. When we cut back and he's later standing over Bill with the fight over, both fists are now considerably charged up, etc.



    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness.

    I just consider it a sort of oddly unique situation with the Surfer and his board that doesn't analogize well to much else. And like I say, enough "we are one and this is a crucial part of my being!" junk exists out there.
    Well, guess I have a new quote.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I'm going to be real here, I'm now in fact sad Superman both can't and hasn't done that now.

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