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Thread: Spoilers WW 758

  1. #16
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Grace Choi, while an Amazon, wasn't and isn't properly a 'Wonder', as in the Wonder Family, like Prince Jason. You're right, on the rest of them, though.

    Jay was almost DARKSEID'S son-in-law, let's not forget! Dodged a bullet, there...
    I believe the dodged bullet would be avoiding the Jason character entirely.

  2. #17
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    I'd rather have Achilles back instead of Jason. The very idea of Wonder Woman having a twin brother is just ludicrous.
    I wasn't a fan of Achilles but I'd 100% take him over Jason any day. I was hoping he'd be left in obscurity forever, but Orlando bringing him back (even if it's a small role; we'll have to find out if he does anything in the annual) has soured me.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Rooting for the next team to be able to do something with Jason, in a far more tempered, supporting way. The failure the first time around outside of an overall bad story was making him too much the focus. The fact I liked the idea when it first came to though is probably what makes me want to give it a second chance. For those that hated the concept in the first place, then saw what they actually did with it, I can appreciate having no desire having it come back to. I'm in the exact same boat in the Superman mythos. But here, if Jason can become a solid supporting character for Wonder Woman whose around once in a while, I'm all for it.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Rooting for the next team to be able to do something with Jason, in a far more tempered, supporting way. The failure the first time around outside of an overall bad story was making him too much the focus. The fact I liked the idea when it first came to though is probably what makes me want to give it a second chance. For those that hated the concept in the first place, then saw what they actually did with it, I can appreciate having no desire having it come back to. I'm in the exact same boat in the Superman mythos. But here, if Jason can become a solid supporting character for Wonder Woman whose around once in a while, I'm all for it.
    My bitterness at the bold is why should writers try to make Jason a solid supporting character when Etta and Steve still aren't firmly solid supporting characters. Why not continue to incorporate Ferdinand or Sasha into the Wonderverse. Why not use this time to give us a great Dr. Psycho story? Why not a story where Dr. Cyber and Dr. Poison team up to start World War III. I know you can't answer these questions, and they are obviously rhetorical. However, I resented every second Wonder Woman was around Jason during Robinson's run because she had to adopt the role of disapproving, nagging mom in her own comic. I'd rather Diana is around characters that help her grow and not simply characters that demand Diana devote her life to their childish needs and immaturity when we get to spend so little time with her as a character as is.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't really see it as either or. They need to establish the classics too, yes. But that shouldn't also mean that you have to wait on everything else. It can all be done at the same time, that's not the issue. The issue is to date, simply no one putting the effort in to do it at all for much of anyone. Or, when you get one who does, its promptly erased because writer turnover in Wonder Woman's line usually means resets as well.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-08-2020 at 01:10 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't really see it as either or. They need to establish the classics too, yes. But that shouldn't also mean that you have to wait on everything else. It can all be done at the same time, that's not the issue. The issue is to date, simply no one putting the effort in to do it at all for much of anyone. Or, when you get one who does, its promptly erased because writer turnover in Wonder Woman's line usually means resets as well.
    I don't think it's either/or. However, it seems Jason was pretty much rejected by the majority of the audience, and unfortunately, as I said earlier, we only get one issue with Diana twice a month. The more time a writer spends on Jason the less time we get with other Wonder characters who have more of a reasonable opportunity to build a fanbase.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    I'd rather have Achilles back instead of Jason. The very idea of Wonder Woman having a twin brother is just ludicrous.
    It’s disrespectful. I’d like to see someone try that ish with Bruce or Clark.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    They did do this with Superman, half a century ago. Kara Zor-El is essentially the same concept. A long lost blood family member. And they've teased ideas of a sibling for Bruce before. There's nothing disrespectful about it inherently.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  9. #24
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    I was not surprised Jason has a male lover, but I forget which issue his bisexuality was referenced or alluded to.

    Does anyone? Thanks in advance, and I too hope Orlando does a better job with Jason.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    They did do this with Superman, half a century ago. Kara Zor-El is essentially the same concept. A long lost blood family member. And they've teased ideas of a sibling for Bruce before. There's nothing disrespectful about it inherently.
    I think it's more the same mentality against Diana having a father, just to a lesser extent. It inserts a male presence into a female driven story, which is a rarity in mainstream comics. Kara is introduced into a male character's franchise and is a powerful female hero for girls to identity with, so provides something in comics that Jason doesn't. There is no shortage of male heroes and support characters in comics, so doing it in the biggest female hero's book always seems more risky. I don't think it was an inherently terrible idea, but he's taking up page space that could go the multitude of female supporting characters and villains that need it more. Robinson doing it in the worst way possible didn't help.*

    In fairness, I don't think Diana having a long lost black twin sister is any less hokey, but Nubia at least is more likeable and easier to still use as just an Amazon (maybe as Philippus's daughter). But Diana actually already has a sibling, albeit an adopted one. They really need to prioritize fixing Donna before they worry about any other possible sibling. Though the dire straights both Donna and Jason are in aren't Orlando's fault, so I don't begrudge him.

    *Robinson having to execute following up on Jason and Grail was a bad combo with his writing I feel. If we got Robinson right after Rucka and he wasn't saddled with this stuff we may have gotten a better run, though poor Vanessa and Julia may still be screwed no matter what.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member NYCER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    They did do this with Superman, half a century ago. Kara Zor-El is essentially the same concept. A long lost blood family member. And they've teased ideas of a sibling for Bruce before. There's nothing disrespectful about it inherently.
    I concur. Wasn’t it most recently in The New 52 where Bruce was thisclose to getting a brother, but Scott Snyder (or maybe it was editorial itself) backed off on that idea?
    Last edited by NYCER; 07-08-2020 at 07:22 PM.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    They did do this with Superman, half a century ago. Kara Zor-El is essentially the same concept. A long lost blood family member. And they've teased ideas of a sibling for Bruce before. There's nothing disrespectful about it inherently.
    Younger cousin is not the same as a twin. Twin implies this dude is WW’s equal right from the jump. And from what I understand Jason may have been portrayed as more powerful than Diana. I’d be more flexible (but not much more) if the twin were a female.

    As for Batman... I’ll concede when they actually do it, not “tease” it. Bonus points if they give this sibling skills/power set equal to Bruce.

    Not in a million years...
    Last edited by Largo161; 07-08-2020 at 09:01 PM.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Twin doesn't inherently imply just as good or better. On its own it really has no implications other than there's a blood relative out there she didn't know. It was the writing in specific that perpetuated those bad ideas. Likewise cousin doesn't have to imply anything either. But just the same routinely Kara has been just as strong as Superman. Hell in some modern day stories she's already been classified asmorepowerful too. This doesn't take for long despite DC's recent insistence, but they've tried it. So the comparison still holds strongly. They would and have dared to do all these things with another member of the Trinity well before doing it with Diana.

    Just an issue with inserting a male character in this close a way into a female driven narrative, that complaint I can understand. I don't necessarily share it, but I get that one.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-08-2020 at 09:22 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  14. #29
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    It looks like Steve Orlando got rid of the magic armor that made him so powerful, in the Robinson run.

    I think we should be clear that Prince Jason is not and never was stronger or more capable, than Diana. Prior to the dark gods forcing him into the magic suit, he had to shed his human form and become a living cyclone to move faster, than Diana could fly naturally. It was only after being stuck in this suit, made for Diana, that he was stronger or more powerful, than his sister. When it came down to fighting, Diana easily proved herself a more skilled warrior, even with Jay in the armor.

    Would we all be so quick about wanting Jason removed from the comic, if writers presented him, as an LGBT superhero? Who knows? On Twitter, Steve Orlando spoke to the speculation that was already there about Jason's sexuality, and how that influenced his making him bi. In the end, after Steve exits WW, will it make a difference - keep Jason around? Who knows?

    Anyway, with the magic armor gone, I think Prince Jason can work in this comic, ..even as a twin.

    Jason needs to be treated, like Artemis, Steel or Huntress and neatly stitched into his own side situation, where he can accrue his own fanbase, ..independently and outside of the comic. I think we want to see that, because it will point back to the WW comic and attract more potential fans. He needs to appear in other comics and, maybe, a team book, under a cool superhero codename: the Olympian, the Argonaut, Ultra Man, Captain Wonder, Mister Wonder, etc. Afterwards, fans will beg writers to team him up with Diana,...but, on his own, earned merit!
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-09-2020 at 06:27 AM. Reason: clarity
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  15. #30
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it's more the same mentality against Diana having a father, just to a lesser extent. It inserts a male presence into a female driven story, which is a rarity in mainstream comics. Kara is introduced into a male character's franchise and is a powerful female hero for girls to identity with, so provides something in comics that Jason doesn't. There is no shortage of male heroes and support characters in comics, so doing it in the biggest female hero's book always seems more risky. I don't think it was an inherently terrible idea, but he's taking up page space that could go the multitude of female supporting characters and villains that need it more. Robinson doing it in the worst way possible didn't help.*
    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    Younger cousin is not the same as a twin. Twin implies this dude is WW’s equal right from the jump. And from what I understand Jason may have been portrayed as more powerful than Diana. I’d be more flexible (but not much more) if the twin were a female.
    100% agree with all of this. To be honest, I'm not a fan of Diana having any siblings at all (sorry, Donna fans). But even beyond the Jason stuff, the "long lost twin" trope is so silly and dated that I'm shocked it's still a thing. It's what soap operas do when they run out of ideas for stories, and I always thought comics tried to be above that, at least in modern years.

    I would be less harsh on Jason if he wasn't forced into the comics as a twin, implying everything Largo161 mentioned. And he certainly was depicted as more powerful in Robinson's run, with flashier powers that constantly overshadowed Diana's own.

    As for Nubia, I see her as similar to Kara. She offers something mainstream comics that most other comics don't have (a powerful woman of color). So I definitely give her more leeway as Diana's twin than I do Jason, but I don't really mind what her backstory is as long as she keeps appearing.

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