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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    No, that's from Green Lantern 51.
    No. Its from GL:Rebirth 3

    Actually there are two statements in GL rebirth, Ganthet says Spectre's power dwarfs Guardians.

    It says even the power of the spectre dwarfs the Guardians'. The apostrophe is important
    Which you know, actually makes sense

    But weren't you saying in the other thread that statements aren't actually proofs and only feats are? Why the sudden reversal?
    The only sudden reversal is from your side since the whole basis of this particular argument to begin with, is to claim Parallax overwhelmed the "Spectre force" (not a host) for which you cite a scan from a story where the "Spectre force" is otherwise portrayed as inferior to a Guardian, of whom alone there are more than one (in this story). This without getting to that Hal is still the host at the point of the scan

    Without getting into what actually beat Parallax at the end of the story that is
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-09-2020 at 07:21 AM.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    No idea.

    His best stuff would be things like 'making suns go supernova and eating that supernova in the face', 'casually exploding planets', and 'not dying immediately when fighting Dormammu, and actually forcing Furnace Face to work'. There's also the whole 'Avatar of Eternity' thing, but he did that all of once and it's *wiggles hand* for Strange in terms of being consistent. Thus, I'm loathe to bring it up in Rumbles.
    That's more like Green Lantern level power, even post Crisis. Save that Eternity feat. Not Spectre level.

    Edit: Also, I guess, knocking Thanos on his ass with a gang-sign bolt of bedevilment. ^_^ But I think that was later.
    That was actually an assisted feat in Infinity Gauntlet.

    If we want Strange at his most powerful, it's Black Magic Shuma-Gorath-Consuming Strange, and then we're getting into an area where I'm perfectly happy arguing him against Cosmic Abstracts. ^_^ But that's a different Strange entirely than Classic Strange, and actually bookmarks the end of the Classic Strange era.
    Even that Strange was only hyped by statements rather than any actual feats on panel.

  3. #33
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    The entities being "spectre level" still looks to be pretty dubious, and when you're talking about retcons and things like that, it's interesting that you're dipping into both post crisis and new 52 showings.

    You post scans that contradict each other even from the same comics at that, having notes of both the Spectre's power dwarfing the guardians, and then being nothing to Ganthet.

    This does not make a coherent case for the things you are trying to say.

    It seems mostly like you're basically heavily leaning on the Relic arc as compared to a variety of other things as a result.
    That was actually regarding Ganthet being on Spectre level. But its not really Lights out arc only. That started back in Blackest Night where emotional spectrum was stated to be what created the universe.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    Recharging entire universe isn't a feat now? Emotional Spectrum is what literally powers the universe.

    Which run would that be then?

    For starters Parallax has actually overpowered Spectre Force (Not a host, mind you).
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    No. Under Johns (the same writer) Ganthet himself says that if they come between Parallax and Black Lantern Spectre (Just a shell of Spectre), they will be vaporized
    The Black Lantern Spectre 1) had a host 2) is not regular Spectre unaided by external powers

    ....also this is Ganthet when he became a GL

  5. #35
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    No. Its from GL:Rebirth 3


    It says even the power of the spectre dwarfs the Guardians'. The apostrophe is important
    Which you know, actually makes sense
    Power of Guardians, if we take your interpretation into account. But sure, let's pretend that Spectre was less powerful than Ganthet, how's that a bad thing for Parallax when we have actual feats of Spectre.


    The only sudden reversal is from your side since the whole basis of this particular argument to begin with, is to claim Parallax overwhelmed the "Spectre force" (not a host) for which you cite a scan from a story where the "Spectre force" is otherwise portrayed as inferior to a Guardian, of whom alone there are more than one (in this story). This without getting to that Hal is still the host at the point of the scan
    Spectre force was corrupted there, not Hal. That was Parallax's goal. That's what he achieved.

    Without getting into what actually beat Parallax at the end of the story that is
    Oh, now a statement>feats all of a sudden, huh? Because Parallax took years to corrupt Spectre while it immediately corrupts Ganthet and Hal actually blast through Ganthet corrupted with Parallax while entire JLA/JSA fails against Spectre corrupted by Parallax.

    But sure, Ganthet is more powerful than Spectre and all his feats are null and void in that arc. Sure thing.

  6. #36
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    The Black Lantern Spectre 1) had a host 2) is not regular Spectre unaided by external powers

    ....also this is Ganthet when he became a GL
    And what exactly is the point regarding Parallax here? He was fighting actual Spectre after destroying the black Lantern shell too.

    Ganthet becoming a GL makes him less powerful somehow? Also Spectre was shown more powerful than Ganthet in Day of Judgement (written by Geoff Johns).

    Last edited by Superfan90; 07-09-2020 at 08:01 AM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    The thing about Parralax is he's a pretty specialized being. He has his role in the universal emotional spectrum/reservoir, and he also has some sick nasty possession and mental influence feats. But the former isn't super relevant to its ability in a fight and Strange is very resistant to the latters. So that means the most relevant thing is how much damage it can do physically. And I only recall one fight without a host, when it physically kicked Jordan's ass.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    The thing about Parralax is he's a pretty specialized being. He has his role in the universal emotional spectrum/reservoir, and he also has some sick nasty possession and mental influence feats. But the former isn't super relevant to its ability in a fight and Strange is very resistant to the latters. So that means the most relevant thing is how much damage it can do physically. And I only recall one fight without a host, when it physically kicked Jordan's ass.
    Uh, not really. There are several examples of Strange being possessed by low level sorcerers or demons. If Parallax can overpower Spectre, Hal Jordan (His willpower was such that he controlled Nekron with a black ring, as stupid as it sounds), Kyle Rayner, Ganthet, entire GLC (when Krona installed it in CPB) and pretty much everyone it wanted. Strange is good, but not that good.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    Power of Guardians, if we take your interpretation into account.
    The implication being it's a poorly worded way of saying even the power of the Spectre is dwarfed by the power of the Guardians, which is the only thing that makes sense in the context of the story

    But sure, let's pretend that Spectre was less powerful than Ganthet, how's that a bad thing for Parallax when we have actual feats of Spectre.
    It's a bad thing for Parallax because it frankly makes mincemeat of the idea of it dominating the "Spectre Force", if said force amounts to less than a single Guardian, of whom there are many

    It's a bad thing because subsequently a few GLs imprison Parallax again, something Ganthet couldn't. This suggests that in the story itself Spectre < Ganthet< 4 GLs

    Spectre force was corrupted there, not Hal. That was Parallax's goal. That's what he achieved.
    Ahh yes. The classic "Hal Jordan is more powerful than the Spectre" argument . This of course being one of the stories that support this argument which kinda makes using the Spectre as abenchmark...dubious

    More to the point you're responding to, considering Hal literally says "we did it together" in your own scan, that would be not

    For starters Parallax has actually overpowered Spectre Force (Not a host, mind you).
    this then? So...not a hostless "Spectre Force"

    Here's your own scan to jog your memory

    https://i.postimg.cc/jqBMQHBn/RCO017.jpg

    Oh, now a statement>feats all of a sudden, huh?
    In the actual story itself, Ganthet released Guy and John of Parallax's corruption with but a gesture. More pertinently the comic says the Guardians basically left Parallax as good as dead at one go

    https://i.postimg.cc/2jnZMnVZ/20200710-013127.jpg

    Parallax was too powerful for the Spectre according to again, your own scan

    https://i.postimg.cc/K8j4GTvQ/RCO020.jpg

    He couldn't even burn him out over many years. Heck he couldn't even contain him, unlike the Guardians

    Because Parallax took years to corrupt Spectre while it immediately corrupts Ganthet and Hal actually blast through Ganthet corrupted with Parallax
    Got it. The story you are using as evidence tells us Hal> Ganthet+ Parallax

    while entire JLA/JSA fails against Spectre corrupted by Parallax.
    The Spectre failed too. The only one powerful enough to resist to tell the "Spectre Force" to fight back, was Hal

    https://i.postimg.cc/HWSFX89f/RCO016.jpg

    Hal tore open Parallax and exhorted Spectre not vice versa. But then Hal is the greatest there is

    But sure, Ganthet is more powerful than Spectre
    The alternative would be the part where you somehow count parts of the story you like as relevant while dismissing the parts you donf like

    and all his feats are null and void in that arc. Sure thing.
    The only thing the arc established was that Hal's willpower is greater than Parallax, all other Lanterns, Ganthet, Spectre....
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-09-2020 at 02:12 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    And what exactly is the point regarding Parallax here? He was fighting actual Spectre after destroying the black Lantern shell too.
    The point regarding Parallax would be that he was restrained by sinestro and then.... hals feelings for Carol which are all more powerful than the Spectre apparently

    https://i.postimg.cc/jdhV23k4/RCO015.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/Gm3WyPWw/RCO017.jpg

    Ganthet becoming a GL makes him less powerful somehow?
    Its certainly not regular Ganthet...certainly not the Ganthet of the Queintessence

    Also Spectre was shown more powerful than Ganthet in Day of Judgement (written by Geoff John)
    That is an unbound Spectre, but then again apparently Hal Jordan Spectre= black Lantern crispus allen= Unbound Spectre ....and all of them less powerful than Hal Jordan GL .

    Who can also match Parallax possessing Ganthet
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 07-09-2020 at 02:12 PM.

  11. #41
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    To really sum up how Parallax was written in Rebirth in a nutshell, this is the ending

    https://i.postimg.cc/vTsYFgcY/RCO010.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/FzV99rLj/RCO011.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/2jQjdwKV/RCO013.jpg

    The jarring part is that Ganthet was somehow performing a whole lot better against non-Hal lanterns minus Parallax than with the supposed universal sum of all fears

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Man I'm being pre empted a lot in this thread ;p (which is fine, my posting energy during quarantine times wanes...)

    Well, without then repeating what is otherwise getting noted. Basically, and certainly there are a lot of problems being pointed out, but the idea that all incarnations of the Spectre are somehow equivalent as far as trying to claim some kind of "Spectre level entity" for something is extremely dubious when, you know, the various incarnations of the Spectre are not equivalent to each other in performances, effectiveness, what have you.

    And it makes it kind of a mess when someone tries to go "but here's the Spectre being powerful there. Therefore he's being just as powerful here interchangeably."

    Orrrrr, maybe the Spectre is having a comparatively crap showing under a writer that doesn't reaaaallly have a lot of regard for said entity.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    Uh, not really. There are several examples of Strange being possessed by low level sorcerers or demons. If Parallax can overpower Spectre, Hal Jordan (His willpower was such that he controlled Nekron with a black ring, as stupid as it sounds), Kyle Rayner, Ganthet, entire GLC (when Krona installed it in CPB) and pretty much everyone it wanted. Strange is good, but not that good.
    He's also beaten Moondragon in a mental duel, and she's got feats at least as good as Parallax.

  14. #44
    Incredible Member Tomzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Man I'm being pre empted a lot in this thread ;p (which is fine, my posting energy during quarantine times wanes...)

    Well, without then repeating what is otherwise getting noted. Basically, and certainly there are a lot of problems being pointed out, but the idea that all incarnations of the Spectre are somehow equivalent as far as trying to claim some kind of "Spectre level entity" for something is extremely dubious when, you know, the various incarnations of the Spectre are not equivalent to each other in performances, effectiveness, what have you.

    And it makes it kind of a mess when someone tries to go "but here's the Spectre being powerful there. Therefore he's being just as powerful here interchangeably."

    Orrrrr, maybe the Spectre is having a comparatively crap showing under a writer that doesn't reaaaallly have a lot of regard for said entity.
    Yeah, I can see why you found the "Spectre-level entities" bit dubious, but it's important to look at the context of my original post:

    Here's what I wrote:

    "Sinestro acting as Parallax's host was a force to be reckoned with. In his fight with Volthoom, he was bringing the pain. Parallax in other (lesser) hosts was brawling with Spectre-level beings. I don't know who wins, but Sinestro w/ Parallax makes this one helluva fight."

    First, I pointed out how Sinestro w/ Parallax brought the pain against Volthoom. I don't exactly know how Classic Strange would fare against Volthoom, but I don't think he'd win that fight with ease. Secondly, Parallax in other (lesser) hosts has been able to brawl with Spectre-level beings, but since the Spectre himself varies in power, I admit that was a vague statement to make. There's also a chance that since Parallax was bonded to Hal Jordan and the Spectre, it made the cosmic parasite even more powerful. Without a host, I don't think Parallax is competent Spectre-tier.

    So moving forward, how powerful is Parallax w/ a host, and how does Classic Strange compare?

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can see why you found the "Spectre-level entities" bit dubious, but it's important to look at the context of my original post:
    Sure, but put another way, the post of mine you're quoting wasn't really talking about your stuff by that point.

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