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  1. #1
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    Default Seeing the DC Teams like seeing Sports-Teams

    Hello,
    I just watched CAPTAIN TSUBASA yesterday and I like the Idea to NOT see the JL,TITANS,TT etc. as inferior,superior,....to each other, but just to see them as different teams, like Sports-Teams.

    I mean if we are serious then they are like Sports-Teams with star-players, good-players etc.

    I mean if we take a look at the teams: [I leave Heroes out who have Rings etc.,I leave Heroes out with incalculable powers like Magic and Batman....)

    JL:
    Star-Players: Superman,Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter,Captain Atom, maybe Barry Allen...
    the rest are good players or below

    Titans (Dicks Generation):
    Star-Players: Wally,Tempest

    TT (Tims Generation)
    Star-Players: Conner,Bart,Miss Martian,Tim (INTELLIGENCE)

    I dont know if you can understand what I mean, but I see the teams not as inferior,superior etc. but just like Sports-Teams who play in the same league and if you make a best-of team like a national team who plays at the World Championships you have to consider "players" (heroes) from all teams, since Titans and TT also have players (heroes) who are superior to JL members.



    I mean for example WALLY from TITANS: Superman,Wonder Woman,Captain Atom,Martian Manhunter are in his league, but I think the rest of the league would be not at his level

    CONNER from TT: If you take the Pre-Flashpoint feats (Gog,Superboy Prime,Doomsday Clone....) you MUST also say that he for sure has to be part of an All-Star Team..


    Logically experience count also,but in a national team for example you also have a mix of young players along with experienced players.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Biggest issue is focusing on the Justice League. They are and always should be the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (specifically Hal)... once you get that squad of the founders together, nobody but nobody should be able to compete with that. They should be the leaders of the Hero community.

    Titans? It's tougher with them... because the founders of THAT team were always the sidekicks of the big 7. It's just not feasable to leave that shadow and be considered 'as good as' the people who taught you everything you know. There's always a divide. NTT get some slack after Wally quit and Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy were never sidekicks to anyone... but that original core 5? Tough shadows to beat.

    I don't think you'll ever get away from the JL/NTT/TT generation divide. Just too many sidekicks...and even when the sidekicks get replaced... their replacements get shoved on to that team like it's the little league practice.

    Now that's JUST that group.

    I definitely think that once you get past the Justice League, or at least the core 7... because the League prestige has REALLY been watered down over the years.... I'm all for the 'sports team' mentality. There shouldn't be any stigma between getting rescued by Justice Society, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad.... maybe... That's just different people with different skills doing the same job as everyone else.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Biggest issue is focusing on the Justice League. They are and always should be the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (specifically Hal)... once you get that squad of the founders together, nobody but nobody should be able to compete with that. They should be the leaders of the Hero community.

    Titans? It's tougher with them... because the founders of THAT team were always the sidekicks of the big 7. It's just not feasable to leave that shadow and be considered 'as good as' the people who taught you everything you know. There's always a divide. NTT get some slack after Wally quit and Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy were never sidekicks to anyone... but that original core 5? Tough shadows to beat.

    I don't think you'll ever get away from the JL/NTT/TT generation divide. Just too many sidekicks...and even when the sidekicks get replaced... their replacements get shoved on to that team like it's the little league practice.

    Now that's JUST that group.

    I definitely think that once you get past the Justice League, or at least the core 7... because the League prestige has REALLY been watered down over the years.... I'm all for the 'sports team' mentality. There shouldn't be any stigma between getting rescued by Justice Society, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad.... maybe... That's just different people with different skills doing the same job as everyone else.
    It isnt really related to what I wrote but ok....

    1. There ISNT!!! an All-Star Squad...
    JL is only another team who "plays the same sport" as Titans,Teen Titans,YJ...do..

    JL has "Star-Players" like Superman,Wonder Woman,Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter
    I leave BATMAN OUT because he is OP in much storylines and there are people who are stronger based on pure fighting abilities

    2. Green Lantern and Blue Beetles etc.
    doesnt count for me, because they are empowered by items and its not very clear who is more powerful than the other version

    3. Like I already said in 1. there ISNT!!! an All-Star Squad
    The TITANS for example have WALLY WEST and TEMPEST
    Teen Titans have RAVEN and SUPERBOY and MISS MARTIAN and BOMBSHELL and BART ALLEN

    If you want to make an All-Star Team you MUST!!! consider TT,Titans and JL...

    The 20 most powerful Superheroes of DC would look like that (Spectre,Orion,GL,Blue Beetle left out)

    JL: Martian Manhunter,Superman,Wonder Woman,Barry Allen,Captain Atom,Zatanna,Shazam
    Titans: Wally West,Tempest,Donna
    TT: Superboy (Johns TT), Bombshell, Miss Martian,Bart Allen, Raven
    SUPERGIRL,DAMAGE,BIG BARDA,LOBO,DR.FATE


    I am not talking about getting rescued by etc.

    What I mean is: If you want to build up the strongest Superhero Team in DC YOU MUST ALSO CALL TT,TITANS,YJ...

    Conner Kent (TT Version) for example would defeat all JL members with the exception of Martian Manhunter,Captain Atom,Superman,Wonder Woman,Zatanna.....
    LOGICALLY if the other one is unprepared (NO KRYPTONITE,RED SUN etc.)
    Raven would probably even solo the whole JL with her powers...
    Last edited by Masterff; 07-10-2020 at 12:57 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Biggest issue is focusing on the Justice League. They are and always should be the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (specifically Hal)... once you get that squad of the founders together, nobody but nobody should be able to compete with that. They should be the leaders of the Hero community.

    Titans? It's tougher with them... because the founders of THAT team were always the sidekicks of the big 7. It's just not feasable to leave that shadow and be considered 'as good as' the people who taught you everything you know. There's always a divide. NTT get some slack after Wally quit and Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy were never sidekicks to anyone... but that original core 5? Tough shadows to beat.

    I don't think you'll ever get away from the JL/NTT/TT generation divide. Just too many sidekicks...and even when the sidekicks get replaced... their replacements get shoved on to that team like it's the little league practice.

    Now that's JUST that group.

    I definitely think that once you get past the Justice League, or at least the core 7... because the League prestige has REALLY been watered down over the years.... I'm all for the 'sports team' mentality. There shouldn't be any stigma between getting rescued by Justice Society, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad.... maybe... That's just different people with different skills doing the same job as everyone else.
    Im not seeing the issue here. The JL is the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is, um ok. They can be that. There are teams in sports like that. And then there are low budget teams, and teams who's players have gotten older, and teams rebuilding made up of young prospects. This isn't really the worst idea for DC to start looking at their teams as sports teams. There are stories in being the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is, or being the overlooked older squad that still have something to prove, or a squad of younger guys looking to make their name and prove themselves as big league stars. Even if they are all playing the same game.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-10-2020 at 02:52 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Im not seeing the issue here. The JL is the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is, um ok. They can be that. There are teams in sports like that. And then there are low budget teams, and teams rebuilding made up of young prospects. This isn't really the worst idea for DC to start looking at their teams as sports teams. There stories in being the #1 biggest All-Star squad there is, or being the team of old overlooked older squad that still have something to prove, or a squad of younger guys looking to make their name and prove themselves.
    THEY ARENT THE ALL STAR SQUAD!!

    JL has Star-Players like Shazam,Superman,Martian Manhunter,Orion,Captain Atom,Barry,Zatanna....
    Rest is good, but Titans,YJ,Teen Titans have BETTER players...

    If you want an All-Star Team you MUST!!! MUST!!! consider Wally West,Raven,Miss Martian,Lobo,Dr. Fate,Supergirl, Power Girl, Tempest, Conner Kent,.....WHO ARENT JL members...


    But another aspect of Sports Teams is like what I like on Captain Tsubasa:

    Here you have different soccer teams who compete...
    And there most teams have good players and among them there is/are one exceptional player or two or three of them who are the leaders of the team and are considered for the NATIONAL ALL STARS TEAM who competes at the World Championships.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    THEY ARENT THE ALL STAR SQUAD!!

    JL has Star-Players like Shazam,Superman,Martian Manhunter,Orion,Captain Atom,Barry,Zatanna....
    Rest is good, but Titans,YJ,Teen Titans have BETTER players...

    If you want an All-Star Team you MUST!!! MUST!!! consider Wally West,Raven,Miss Martian,Lobo,Dr. Fate,Supergirl, Power Girl, Tempest, Conner Kent,.....WHO ARENT JL members...
    Why? Conner is younger weaker version of Superman... Miss Martian is a less experienced Martian Manhunter... Dr. Fate and Wally West have BEEN Justice League members... sometimes for years. In Wally's case decades... Raven has been getting a push, but the JL has either Zatanna or Dr. Fate on call... and now days Constantine.

    If anything they tend to treat the TT and Titans crews as the minor leagues. Once a spot opens up and once they 'prove themselves' then they can move up to the majors and be 'real Justice League'.

    Different writers try to push the different characters... but to say say that the Titans have 'Better' players, while at same time not allowing the ones like Green Lantern or Batman because they're 'OP' seems like an odd way of running this.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Why? Conner is younger weaker version of Superman... Miss Martian is a less experienced Martian Manhunter... Dr. Fate and Wally West have BEEN Justice League members... sometimes for years. In Wally's case decades... Raven has been getting a push, but the JL has either Zatanna or Dr. Fate on call... and now days Constantine.

    If anything they tend to treat the TT and Titans crews as the minor leagues. Once a spot opens up and once they 'prove themselves' then they can move up to the majors and be 'real Justice League'.

    Different writers try to push the different characters... but to say say that the Titans have 'Better' players, while at same time not allowing the ones like Green Lantern or Batman because they're 'OP' seems like an odd way of running this.

    1. Wally is a Titan, it DOESNT!!! matter if he has been a JL member, he is currently a Titan and therefore belongs to the Titans

    2. Raven ISNT only a magician, but has also other powers and is often said that she is probably the most powerful Superhero EVER!!

    3. GL and Blue Beetle are left out, because they are empowered by ITEMS and therefore we dont know who is the most powerful one..
    Is Ted or Jamie more powerful etcl etc.??????
    Kyle or Hal?

    4. Based on strength and powers alone there are stronger Superheroes than Batman, but ok...

    5. It doesnt matter if Conner or Miss Martian are inferior to Superman and Martian Manhunter...
    FACT is that they belong to the 25 most powerful Superheroes in DC..

    Conner would defeat most of the JL (exceptions are the magicians,Superman,Shazam,Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter and Orion).

    Sorry, but move up to the majors is RIDICULOUS...Conner,Raven,Miss Martian,Supergirl....have never been JL members but would defeat MOST JL members like Hawkman, Aquaman, Hawkgirl, Green Arrow, Batman (without Preparation Time).

    And I would even replace Green Arrow with Arsenal, Aquaman with Tempest....

    For me the JL ISNT superior, but just another team who plays the same sport in the same league...

    This "being superior" is in fact that which keeps many franchises and Superheroes down.
    Last edited by Masterff; 07-10-2020 at 06:59 AM.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    The main problem with this view is that DC doesn't view the teams as being in the same league's.DC sees them like this.

    Justice league teams = pros
    Titans= college
    Teen titans % young justice= high school

    That's how DC views the team whether fans like it or not.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    The main problem with this view is that DC doesn't view the teams as being in the same league's.DC sees them like this.

    Justice league teams = pros
    Titans= college
    Teen titans % young justice= high school

    That's how DC views the team whether fans like it or not.
    Yep. It's the way it is within the fictional universe, too.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I think you can argue that certain members from the TT/YJ teams can certainly outshine individual Leaguers on one one, but the premise that they are all equally-powered teams with a handful of stand-out powerhouses just doesn't comport, IMO. Experience and intelligence counts for a lot in these fictional match-ups.

    I don't necessarily think this exact scene should play out, but it does roughly illustrate the point.




    Also, a team has to be well-rounded. So an "All-Star" team doesn't necessarily just have the strongest members. If we're using a sports analogy, you can't have 11 quarterbacks in NFL football or 11 strikers in soccer/football. You need other positions with other strengths. The Justice League basically fulfills that. Aquaman is the King of the seas without equal; Superman is the most powerful being; JL's Flash is (at least historically) the fastest speedster around; Batman is the smartest and most resourceful; head to head Martian Manhunter is second only to a handful, same with Wonder Woman.

  11. #11
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    The question to ask is: which group would the president call first? Unless it's the Maxwell Lord version, the JL would be #1 on the list.
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  12. #12
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    The army, or national guard. I think whats going on today kind of explains why the JL answering to the president is maybe not the best idea.

    That being said the idea that 1 team being the best invalidates all other teams is, well, misguided. And thats on DC. In their desperation to keep up with the Avengers they have funneled everything towards the JL, and failed to really continue to cultivate their other teams in meaningful ways.
    But this one above all is intentional. It falls into how they see other properties as threats to what they deem most accessible. So they purposely feed into this idea that the JL is all that really matters. Which in turn is then self fulfilling. But all it takes is one turd of a movie to see that maybe having viable alternatives also around isn’t the worse idea.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-11-2020 at 05:05 PM.

  13. #13
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The army, or national guard. I think whats going on today kind of explains why the JL answering to the president is maybe not the best idea.
    I think you knew what I meant.

    That being said the idea that 1 team being the best invalidates all other teams is, well, misguided. And thats on DC. In their desperation to keep up with the Avengers they have funneled everything towards the JL, and failed to really continue to cultivate their other teams in meaningful ways.
    But this one above all is intentional. It falls into how they see other properties as threats to what they deem most accessible. So they purposely feed into this idea that the JL is all that really matters. Which in turn is then self fulfilling. But all it takes is one turd of a movie to see that maybe having viable alternatives also around isn’t the worse idea.
    The JL has, on average, DC's most popular characters and at their physical peaks, so that's why there at the top of the heap. I won't say it will always be that way, but if the JL's status is lowered, it will mean the Trinity and other big guns have been removed for "lesser" heroes.
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  14. #14
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    There at the top of the heap because DC puts them at the top of the heap, and makes sure to position them above all others. DC’s world is malleable. And DC does that because it’s made up of DC’s most popular and accessible characters. Which makes sense.
    But they don’t have to be the only high status team, nor should it even be highest status or bust for their other teams. This singular vision of theirs already kind of blew up in their face. So why not have multiple respectable teams of various status and diversify their super teams. Instead of continuing this wide disparity between the JL and their other teams. That way when JL bombs, they could maybe then have some other viable options. Instead of letting those other properties fall completely to the wayside in their singular vision as they have. Like the JSA and Titans don’t need to be nonexistent or bottom feeders for the JL to keep status.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-11-2020 at 07:58 PM.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    The Trinity are like the New England Patriots
    The JSA are like the Dallas Cowboys, "America's Team" even though they haven't really been important in a long time.
    Suicide Squad = The Cleveland Browns
    JLE - Battle of the Network Stars

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