Help Me Understand Batman RIP

[Timothy Hunter]

Was Morrison stating that every 50s Batman adventure was a simulation? What about Kathy Kane Batwoman and Betty Kane Batgirl? Betty Kane had proven to obviously exist due to her appearances prior in comics such as Geoff Johns and Ben Raab's Beast Boy miniseries. Kathy Kane as well turned out to be real when she appeared in the pages of Batman Incorporated.

I thought Batman RIP as a story worked very well, but this plotpoint always bugged me. It also felt unnecessary. Why would Morrison feel he has to explain away the more sillier aspects of Batman's history when things just as goofy happened in the pages of titles such as Superman and Wonder Woman around the same time period?

[bob.schoonover]

I'm not sure how much of this was on the page vs what my mind filled in, but I was under the impression that Morrison's point here was that because of fear gas and other similar villainous plot devices, Bruce's "zany" period was really just more an exaggerated memory. Katherine and Betty existed, but they were just part of some capers where Bruce had been gassed and the goofy story from the 50s has a more grounded reality behind it.

[gregpersons]

I think the way to understand it is Morrison's overall view on continuity is "Everything Happened, Everything Counts" it's just that some of the sillier stories need to be seen through a kind of fanfic filter in your head. Morrison demonstrates how to solve a lot of stories that don't fit as perhaps being mental hallucinations or from attempts to hijack Batman's mind.

[Gotham citizen]

I think there is a better way to solve that issue: keep in mind that all stories are "children of their time" and no one can write a story without make some mistake about the continuity; above all when the writers have the annoying habit to rewrite the past in order to fix it.

[phonogram12]

"Help Me Understand Batman RIP"

Morrison used to indulge in a lot of hallucinogens.

J/K!

I don't mind the "every story counts" idea when it comes to Batman, personally. I just prefer when they don't all happen to the same Batman. In my personal canon, Dick Sprang's Batman & Robin continue to have their own wacky adventures on their own Earth where Eisenhower is still president, while a pre-Robin 1930's Batman is still wearing purple gloves and a round belt buckle while tossing crooks into vats of acid on his.

[gregpersons]

"Help Me Understand Batman RIP"

Morrison used to indulge in a lot of hallucinogens.

J/K!

I don't mind the "every story counts" idea when it comes to Batman, personally. I just prefer when they don't all happen to the same Batman. In my personal canon, Dick Sprang's Batman & Robin continue to have their own wacky adventures on their own Earth where Eisenhower is still president, while a pre-Robin 1930's Batman is still wearing purple gloves and a round belt buckle while tossing crooks into vats of acid on his.

In a way, Morrison's Batman could be seen as an analog to the "Peter B Parker" in Spider-Verse — there's the ideal Batman, and then there's the idea of a Batman who actually has been through the ringer in going through EVERY adventure, basically, in one lifetime and one career, and the kind of cumulative toll would take on the mind. In a sense, it was about healing the Batman idea as much as Batman the man.

[Restingvoice]

Was Morrison stating that every 50s Batman adventure was a simulation? What about Kathy Kane Batwoman and Betty Kane Batgirl? Betty Kane had proven to obviously exist due to her appearances prior in comics such as Geoff Johns and Ben Raab's Beast Boy miniseries. Kathy Kane as well turned out to be real when she appeared in the pages of Batman Incorporated.

I thought Batman RIP as a story worked very well, but this plot point always bugged me. It also felt unnecessary. Why would Morrison feel he has to explain away the sillier aspects of Batman's history when things just as goofy happened in the pages of titles such as Superman and Wonder Woman around the same time period?

Some happened some didn't. The more outlandish one didn't.

Like for example, his rogue did get sillier compared to the Golden Age. Batman complained that he's supposed to be a dark knight fighting crime, not facing gimmick villains. He feels like a joke doing it... but there's no... say... space adventure, time travel, alien invasion, flying Batcave, and Bat-Mite is a hallucination.

He explains it that way because he wants to reconcile different eras of Batman, while still operating under the rule of Post Crisis where Batman is a more grounded character.

[phonogram12]

In a way, Morrison's Batman could be seen as an analog to the "Peter B Parker" in Spider-Verse — there's the ideal Batman, and then there's the idea of a Batman who actually has been through the ringer in going through EVERY adventure, basically, in one lifetime and one career, and the kind of cumulative toll would take on the mind. In a sense, it was about healing the Batman idea as much as Batman the man.

I totally get that, but speaking on purely personal preference, it just wasn't a story I was interested in reading for Batman. I simply don't like the idea of some of my favorite aspects of Atomic Age Batman being reduced to hallucinations. I also don't like the idea that post-Crisis Batman had the kind of wacky giant typewriter-style adventures that '50s Batman had just as much as I dislike the idea of '50s Batman having his back broken by Bane.

I'm glad you liked it, though. It's just not for me.

[gregpersons]

I totally get that, but speaking on pure personal preference, it just wasn't a story I was interested in reading for Batman. I simply don't like the idea of some of my favorite aspects of Atomic Age Batman being reduced to hallucinations. I also don't like the idea that post-Crisis Batman had the kind of wacky giant typewriter-style adventures that '50s Batman had just as much as I dislike the idea of '50s Batman having his back broken by Bane.

I'm glad you liked it, though. It's just not for me.

For sure, you're more than welcome to dislike it! I'm not implying you're wrong, just giving lenses to view it with for you or the OP or whoever.

In the sense of Adam West Batman eventually having his back broken by Bane, in a way -- I kind of posted about this in a thread somewhere down there about Unifying the Live Action Batman films and shows -- every Batman must have had a beginning, an ending, a bunch of adventures we don't know about. It doesn't all perfectly fit together, but so many of the stories are repeated anyway, the Joker has poisoned Gotham and broadcast his intentions X amount of times, to me it's fun to imagine how that would mentally impact 1 person.

And Morrison's story is the only one that really gets into that besides maybe Miller and a few others. I loved it. IMO. YMMV.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm not sure how much of this was on the page vs what my mind filled in, but I was under the impression that Morrison's point here was that because of fear gas and other similar villainous plot devices, Bruce's "zany" period was really just more an exaggerated memory. Katherine and Betty existed, but they were just part of some capers where Bruce had been gassed and the goofy story from the 50s has a more grounded reality behind it.

This. The biggest take away is that those things happened but what we read/what Bruce experienced was a heightened reality that may be divorced of some context. So there's more going on in those old stories, but because of fear gas and various drugs Bruce Wayne had been exposed to- they took on new life as the colorful pop art nightmares he had. The Black Case Book elaborates a bit on this, in recontextualizing a few specific adventures. Basically it gives you an opportunity to read those older stories through new eyes.

So Bat-Mite may be a manifestation of Batman's ID. The villains were sillier because of their colourful costumes and gimmicks, which are enhanced due to psychedelics and hallucinogens. It's not so much that "everything happened" but more Bruce Wayne, the man, has lived through all these wild experiences and adventures. The Batman endures!

King/Seely elude to this with Dick in GRAYSON, also.

[PurpleGlovez]

R.I.P. was published at a time when Christopher Nolan had an enormous influence over the way Batman was perceived by the general public. Keep in mind that Batman's 50s-era stories had already been apocryphal since Denny O'Neil took over in 1986.

So, the only way Morrison could really "get away with" referencing these stories was by making them drug-induced hallucinations. Note how in Batman 682-683, Dick references "Katy Kane" (not Kathy) and a non-hyphenated Batgirl. It seems DC was reluctant about them even as late as 2008.

Nevertheless, the first volume of Morrison's Incorporated definitively establishes that Kathy operated as Batwoman alongside a blonde-haired sidekick.

[K. Jones]

R.I.P. was published at a time when Christopher Nolan had an enormous influence over the way Batman was perceived by the general public. Keep in mind that Batman's 50s-era stories had already been apocryphal since Denny O'Neil took over in 1986.

So, the only way Morrison could really "get away with" referencing these stories was by making them drug-induced hallucinations. Note how in Batman 682-683, Dick references "Katy Kane" (not Kathy) and a non-hyphenated Batgirl. It seems DC was reluctant about them even as late as 2008.

Nevertheless, the first volume of Morrison's Incorporated definitively establishes that Kathy operated as Batwoman alongside a blonde-haired sidekick.

We still haven't gotten any confirmation on who that blond Bat-Girl was, either. One of the loose threads from Batman, Inc. Could be Bette, what with all the Lois Lane/Rebirth/People's alt-histories are starting to phase in acknowledgment we've been getting post Doomsday Clock. But it's not like Kathy seemed to be lacking in potential fake/false spy girl sidekick candidates. Like, that's her entire schtick.

In my head-canon the Silver Age Bat-Girl might have been ALICE (that is ... Elizabeth "Beth"/Maybe "Betty" Kane), still brainwashed. A whole shifty spy connection between Spyral, or at least St. Hadrian's, Jake, and the Religion of Crime.

But I mean in my weirdo head-canon I also ship Nightwing and Alice.

But I mean ... I ship Jimmy Olsen with Power Girl.

I can't be taken seriously.

[charliehustle415]

I'm not sure how much of this was on the page vs what my mind filled in, but I was under the impression that Morrison's point here was that because of fear gas and other similar villainous plot devices, Bruce's "zany" period was really just more an exaggerated memory. Katherine and Betty existed, but they were just part of some capers where Bruce had been gassed and the goofy story from the 50s has a more grounded reality behind it.

This is my understanding as well.

All of the stuff that happened in the Silver Age of Batman happened through the prism of a myriad of drugs, hallucinations, and gasses that Bruce was afflicted with.

And when we are reading these old stories they are Bruce's recollection of these events that he wrote in his Black Casebook

https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Black-.../dp/1401222641

Even Alfred wonders what was happening with Bruce's mental state when he peeks into the Black Casebook, so technically everything happened but Bruce is an unreliable narrator.

[Restingvoice]

We still haven't gotten any confirmation on who that blond Bat-Girl was, either. One of the loose threads from Batman, Inc. Could be Bette, what with all the Lois Lane/Rebirth/People's alt-histories are starting to phase in acknowledgment we've been getting post Doomsday Clock. But it's not like Kathy seemed to be lacking in potential fake/false spy girl sidekick candidates. Like, that's her entire schtick.

In my head-canon the Silver Age Bat-Girl might have been ALICE (that is ... Elizabeth "Beth"/Maybe "Betty" Kane), still brainwashed. A whole shifty spy connection between Spyral, or at least St. Hadrian's, Jake, and the Religion of Crime.

But I mean in my weirdo head-canon I also ship Nightwing and Alice.

But I mean ... I ship Jimmy Olsen with Power Girl.

I can't be taken seriously.

Alice would be older than that. Even before they establish that Kate is Bruce's cousin, she's around Renee's age.

[K. Jones]

Alice would be older than that. Even before they establish that Kate is Bruce's cousin, she's around Renee's age.

I mean arguably, Batman's 25, Dick's 13-15. Less than a 10 year difference. If we roll with Kate being a smidge older so she's more a peer of Bruce than not, and Alice gets the same age because twins, it's not like he couldn't be finding a 20 year old woman hot. I know I did. And then the more you progress the less it matters, Dick is essentially semi-eternally 22 now and Batwoman maybe rolls around 30?