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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Default Are Batman's villains receiving more respect than his family in wider media?

    I'm talking mostly of course about Joker and Harley Quinn, but to some extent Deathstroke and other Batman villains as well.

    I mean there's the Joker film and all the films Harley Quinn has been in, now compare that to the Batfamily in recent years:

    • Babs, excluded from the Birds of Prey film.
    • Cass, unrecognizable in Birds of Prey film, Cass in name only IMO.
    • Dick's usual personality MIA in Titans series, they also made him a jerk IMO.
    • Jason Todd, mistreated by Dick and Bruce in Titans series. IMO don't like Titans version of Bruce, but anyway.
    • Kate, weakened back-story in Batwoman series season 1, entirely replaced (fridged) with an OC for season 2.
    • Batman basically made a killer IMO in Batman VS Superman film.
    • And to top it all off, the Green Arrow in the Arrow series stole many of Batman's best stories and villains. Yes, I'm calling it stealing, because the writer's could have come up with their own ideas or used Green Arrow stories but they took the lazy route, so there.


    Alfred and Gordon seem to be getting treated with far more respect than the rest of Batman's family IMO (Gotham and Pennyworth), and I think that may be to do with those series not being Berlanti productions, but anyway Joker and Harley Quinn sure are doing well. I can't speak for The Batman film, it isn't made yet, but I hope it will be good.

    The villains get adapted in such a way that they are essentially still themselves, but much of the time the identity and personality of the Bat-family are not given the same level of respect when being adapted. Too often IMO they get altered into essentially different people with the same name, or entirely erased and replaced (Harley becoming the leader of BOP instead of Babs, Kate Kane erased from her own show).
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 07-10-2020 at 05:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think this is just getting into adaption exclusive issues rather then an overall issue wit respecting the Batfamily but the villains have always been seen as one of the most popular and recognizable elements in the franchise.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    No. The batfamily has always been well represented in wider media. The fact that the villains are now also getting in on the action doesn't mean the family is being disrespected.

    As a fan of the Batfamily I would like more batfamily focused stuff but I would be lying if I said they were disrespected.

    I've got cartoons, games and tv shows with the family. DC is a business Aside from Robin [collectively] the villains are the next most popular parts of the franchise so it's understandable that the company wants to showcase them.


    I wasn't a fan of what they did with Cass in BOP or the fact that they changed the BOP to include Harley not babs but I understand why DC/WB choose to invest in a Harley movie or Cass or Kate or even a Robin movie.

    It's business not disrespect.
    Though I feel that a Batgirl tv series would have been better than a Batwoman series.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-09-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    No. The batfamily has always been well represented in wider media. The fact that the villains are now also getting in on the action doesn't mean the family is being disrespected.
    Perhaps more the way to phrase it is their essence gets to stay intact - they are essentially the same character and not changed beyond recognition, or swapped out for OCs using the identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Though I feel that a Batgirl tv series would have been better than a Batwoman series.
    That's basically what they have planned, in a way, the OC is supposed to be "likable" and "goofy", so they are going for more light-hearted.
    And with the exception of Cass, most Batgirls are more light-hearted (though not necessarily goofy) whilst Batwoman broods almost as much as her cousin.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I'm talking mostly of course about Joker and Harley Quinn, but to some extent Deathstroke and other Batman villains as well.

    I mean there's the Joker film and all the films Harley Quinn has been in, now compare that to the Batfamily in recent years:

    • Babs, excluded from the Birds of Prey film.
    • Cass, unrecognizable in Birds of Prey film, Cass in name only IMO.
    • Dick's usual personality MIA in Titans series, they also made him a jerk IMO.
    • Jason Todd, mistreated by Dick and Bruce in Titans series. IMO don't like Titans version of Bruce, but anyway.
    • Kate, weakened back-story in Batwoman series season 1, entirely replaced (fridged) with an OC for season 2.
    • Batman basically made a killer IMO in Batman VS Superman film.
    • And to top it all off, the Green Arrow in the Arrow series stole many of Batman's best stories and villains. Yes, I'm calling it stealing, because the writer's could have come up with their own ideas or used Green Arrow stories but they took the lazy route, so there.


    Alfred and Gordon seem to be getting treated with far more respect than the rest of Batman's family IMO (Gotham and Pennyworth), and I think that may be to do with those series not being Berlanti productions, but anyway Joker and Harley Quinn sure are doing well. I can't speak for The Batman film, it isn't made yet, but I hope it will be good.
    Wait, one by one

    Babs was excluded because they wanted to establish her in the Bat films. Her film was already planned, even though they canceled/postpone it. While Birds even though it's a Bat branch was conceptualized as a Harley movie. Basically, it's more about WB having not a good handle on things.

    Cass was written that way because the movie's creator, an Asian woman, doesn't want a stereotype of silent Asian girl (and maybe martial arts girl)

    Haven't paid attention to Titans or Batwoman so I can't say if the decision to replace Kate is disrespectful or not

    Snyder said that Batman became a killer because Dick died, which is in line with his depiction in comics where every time Dick was presumed dead he went berserk. Both times, Luthor, the perpetrator was almost killed.

    Ah well, Arrow is never good about that, they killed Black Canary and replace the love interest with their OC Felicity Smoak. So I don't even count them as disrespecting heroes as much as just disrespecting the source material in general.

  6. #6
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I'm holding out hope for a BATGIRL flick. Get Nicolas Winding Refn to direct, and Karen Gillen to star.

    I'm hoping TITANS goes to HBOMax, Dick is perfectly cast- even if the show can be uneven.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ah well, Arrow is never good about that, they killed Black Canary and replace the love interest with their OC Felicity Smoak. So I don't even count them as disrespecting heroes as much as just disrespecting the source material in general.
    Well Green Arrow never did have much of a rouges galley to begin with and he came off originally as "Batman with a bow and arrow dressed as Robin Hood".

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Cass was written that way because the movie's creator, an Asian woman, doesn't want a stereotype of silent Asian girl (and maybe martial arts girl)
    I'd argue that the problem is that they chose to use Cass for the sake of diversity, while stripping her of what made the character herself. If they didn't want the Stereotype they shouldn't have used Cass, otherwise they were bound to annoy her fans.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Honestly, the only Batfam character that I feel was straight up disrespected in other media was Cassandra. Titans' Dick is...different. But just like every other Titan in that show, there are still enough shades of their original selves for me to still recognize them as those characters. I'm actually kinda impressed by how different they made characters like Dick, Kory, and Rose while still making them feel like...well...themselves. And that's really all I want when they do these different interpretations. To have some semblance of the character that they're based on. Otherwise, what's the point in using that specific character?

    And nowhere is that more painfully highlighted than in Birds of Prey's treatment of Cassandra Cain. That was just disrespectful. Basically making an OC but slapping a popular name onto them...just because. It's like what X-Men 3 did with all of their "Morlocks". It doesn't help that this is also Cassandra's first big mainstream appearance. So most non-comic fans would likely think that the pathetic little tagalong kid is actually who she is.

    Overall though, I'm mostly happy with how the Batfam has been presented outside of comics. Hell, you could say they're treated even better than they are in the comics right now lol
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-10-2020 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Overall though, I'm mostly happy with how the Batfam has been presented outside of comics. Hell, you could say they're treated even better than they are in the comics right now lol
    I hope you don't think that about Kate Kane being booted out of her own show, in which case I'd strongly disagree with you.

    Imagine a Batman series where Bruce gets tossed after one season, and they make a new original character become Batman.

  11. #11
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I hope you don't think that about Kate Kane being booted out of her own show, in which case I'd strongly disagree with you.

    Imagine a Batman series where Bruce gets tossed after one season, and they make a new original character become Batman.
    Ruby Rose deciding to leave the show isn't the same as getting booted, nor is it an accurate use of the term fridged. No disrespect to Ruby Rose, mental health and maintenance are important, but she kinda put the production in a weird position by jumping ship. maybe there are some other factors we aren't aware of but from what we know now she couldn't continue the show of her own accord and so they saw an opportunity to go a in different direction. For all you know they didn't want to recast because they want to leave room for Ruby Rose's Kate Kane to come back in some capacity, or out of respect for the character they've developed thus far (less likely). They have replaced Bruce Wayne with an original character before, it's called Batman Beyond and it's one of the most popular iterations of Batman ever. You may not dig the direction but it's really a slight against or disrespect toward the character, unlike the hatchet-job they did to Cassandra. Ultimately these characters get utilized in all kinds of ways and fashions, and with a character like Batwoman, I'm sure you'll get another Kate Kane.
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  12. #12
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    They have replaced Bruce Wayne with an original character before, it's called Batman Beyond and it's one of the most popular iterations of Batman ever. You may not dig the direction but it's really a slight against or disrespect toward the character, unlike the hatchet-job they did to Cassandra. Ultimately these characters get utilized in all kinds of ways and fashions, and with a character like Batwoman, I'm sure you'll get another Kate Kane.
    Notice it was Batman Beyond, not Batman. They haven't renamed the show Batwoman Beyond, or Batwoman something else, just Batwoman, like Kate never existed.

    Batman has been around for over 80 years, modern Batwoman just over 14 years. This was the first live-action version of Batwoman, and a chance for the character to get known more widely, and instead of recast her they threw her under the bus because the actress left. And there's no guarantee they'll do another Kate Kane, that she's already been tossed aside after one season speaks for itself.

    I'm not going to go into all the reasons why it isn't the same, this article sums it up well enough:
    https://screenrant.com/batwoman-arro...ecast-mistake/

  13. #13
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    You may not dig the direction but it's really a slight against or disrespect toward the character, unlike the hatchet-job they did to Cassandra.
    And on another note, Batman Beyond was always Terry's show, he was didn't replace Bruce, because Bruce was right there as his mentor, nor did he directly replace Bruce as Batman because he retires in the pilot and is retired by the time Terry becomes Batman.

    How about Batman Beyond where Terry is the hero for season one, voice actor quits, now a new character replaces him and Terry goes missing.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say disrespected exactly. There is one very specific issue with how the Batman family is used in other media. For a long time there has been a disconnect with Batman centered in other media and media centered around Batman related properties in other media. When we think of the "Batman Family" working together that doesn't really exist in other media very often. There is a very obvious uneasiness for some reason in depicting Batman as we see him commonly in the comics working with his extended family (Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl and so on). You either see Batman working on his own or with non traditional Batman family members when the focus is on him where at most you will get a Robin or a Batgirl thrown in there, or you'll see Batman family members in some kind of media where Batman is removed or plays a very small supporting role where he isn't the focus.

    Villains don't really have this problem as they are used pretty consistently in their traditional roles. Not sure if I was able to explain my point clearly enough but it is the difference in getting a Nolan movies or the Batwoman show, but we haven't really ever gotten anything like a proper Batman family show or movie I think. Something like that failed pitch for a Batman family cartoon that was going to have Batman, Robin (Damain), Nightwing, and Batgirl (Cass) as the focus. Something like that we haven't really seen in other media.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    When we think of the "Batman Family" working together that doesn't really exist in other media very often. There is a very obvious uneasiness for some reason in depicting Batman as we see him commonly in the comics working with his extended family (Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl and so on). You either see Batman working on his own or with non traditional Batman family members when the focus is on him where at most you will get a Robin or a Batgirl thrown in there, or you'll see Batman family members in some kind of media where Batman is removed or plays a very small supporting role where he isn't the focus.

    Villains don't really have this problem as they are used pretty consistently in their traditional roles. Not sure if I was able to explain my point clearly enough but it is the difference in getting a Nolan movies or the Batwoman show, but we haven't really ever gotten anything like a proper Batman family show or movie I think. Something like that failed pitch for a Batman family cartoon that was going to have Batman, Robin (Damain), Nightwing, and Batgirl (Cass) as the focus. Something like that we haven't really seen in other media.
    They have done it in animated form, but with live-action I've only seen it in 'Batman '66' and the 'Batman and Robin' film. In both cases it was kinda silly, rather than the more serious tone taken nowadays with any live-action Bat-related media.

    I think the tone from these previous examples causes reluctance to bring the family all together. On top of that, in order to do it, it would work best to start with Batman and gradually build-up to introducing multiple family members, like how the MCU was gradually built. But in order for that to happen they have to keep to the same version of Batman long enough, with enough films/series for it to happen organically IMO.

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