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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I'm not saying that she should be exactly like him, I'm saying its not a bad comparison. If Diana being compared to the most powerful Avenger that is also seeing an unprecedented fan base resurgence due to the marvel movies is a waste of potential, then I don't know what to tell you. I feel like Diana having Greek epic/tragedy style stories ON TOP OF her basic superhero stuff would be a unique character and universe difference from Batman's detective/Noir style and Superman's Syfy/space adventure style. This is not to say she can't have those styles of stories but, those are more unique to Superman and Batman.

    I like her original rouges gallery, I think the ones that have been updated by Orlando are freaking great and that more should be too. But, this aversion from Greek myth, in large part due to its poor and over use starting at Brian Azzerello's Nu52 relaunch, is not a positive sign to me. Just as the downgrade of the Gods has effected their perception of power and authority in the greater universe, so has the downgrade in Diana's power. Just as other users have said the Greek Gods are the top tier beings in the Wonderverse, Ares is basically Diana's personal Thanos and should constantly be on Darkseid's radar. Half the pantheon gave Diana her powers, If the GODS can be steam rolled over by just about anyone why should writers give Diana any real challenges?
    Thor does classical hero stories because that fits him. They don't fit Diana. Her character is supposed to be about progress, not copying the past. If she does a classical style story, it should be in order to subvert that kind of story.

    Wonder Woman's powers shouldn't come from the gods, nor should the Greek Gods be in any kind of position of dominance. The days when they were the top dogs are over, and the stories featuring them should focus on how they've adapted to the new Paradigm. Aphrodite recognizes that the time of the gods being in charge is over, so she becomes a source of wisdom and guidance for the Amazons instead. Ares, by contrast, can't adapt, and instead tries to cling to days gone by, which brings him into conflict with Diana.

    Ares goes up against Darkseid? There should never be a moment of doubt in the audience that Darkseid is going to come out on top of that situation.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I think the gods/goddesses should be in some of the WW stories, but not in all of them, of course and not even every other issue.

    In some issues, it can mention the gods/goddesses as a reason Diana is/is not doing something, for example, but there is so much that can be done with WW without them. They should not be the sole focus of her book.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Wonder Woman's powers shouldn't come from the gods, nor should the Greek Gods be in any kind of position of dominance.
    Except that... they do, and always have. This kinda feels like you have an ideal of what you want WW to be but it's not what she actually IS.

  4. #19
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Thor does classical hero stories because that fits him. They don't fit Diana. Her character is supposed to be about progress, not copying the past. If she does a classical style story, it should be in order to subvert that kind of story.

    Wonder Woman's powers shouldn't come from the gods, nor should the Greek Gods be in any kind of position of dominance. The days when they were the top dogs are over, and the stories featuring them should focus on how they've adapted to the new Paradigm. Aphrodite recognizes that the time of the gods being in charge is over, so she becomes a source of wisdom and guidance for the Amazons instead. Ares, by contrast, can't adapt, and instead tries to cling to days gone by, which brings him into conflict with Diana.

    Ares goes up against Darkseid? There should never be a moment of doubt in the audience that Darkseid is going to come out on top of that situation.
    I'm sorry, I just don't agree with the bold parts. The Hiketeia, Eyes of the Gorgon, Challenge of the Gods, 12 Labors, Gods and Monsters, and Gods of Gotham are just some of the classical Greek myth based stories that Wonder Woman was a part of off the top of my head. All of those are great stories that use the Gods, a Greek epic style story telling, and Diana. Yes she is about progress but, she is also a teacher and how do you progress without looking at the past?

    The Gods have always been top dogs in Wonder Woman's universe, since the golden age they where the most powerful beings in her mythos. We've had excellent stories from before the Nu52 that involved powerful gods and changing of times. Taking them away takes hundreds of her stories with them. I don't understand where this hatred for everything involving her Greek mythology based mythos is coming from. It feels like you want to take half of everything that makes Diana, Diana, away.

    Post-Crisis DC Ares was an insane powerhouse of a God; he constantly overpowered Diana, traveled several hundred years into the future to kill every hero and created Genocide, He KILLED High Father with in a fraction of a second, and was powerful enough to challenge 2 sky father level deities. Not to mention his multiple ways of becoming more powerful through conflict. Ares challenging Darkseid use to be an actual debate with his feats, now thanks to the Nu52 and more recently GWW, Ares is a sad shell of his former self.
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  5. #20
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I think the gods/goddesses should be in some of the WW stories, but not in all of them, of course and not even every other issue.

    In some issues, it can mention the gods/goddesses as a reason Diana is/is not doing something, for example, but there is so much that can be done with WW without them. They should not be the sole focus of her book.
    About where I am, they have their place and there’s been stories where they’ve been in that I’ve enjoyed but I don’t want them as the sole focus at the expense of other villains/supporting cast.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I'm sorry, I just don't agree with the bold parts. The Hiketeia, Eyes of the Gorgon, Challenge of the Gods, 12 Labors, Gods and Monsters, and Gods of Gotham are just some of the classical Greek myth based stories that Wonder Woman was a part of off the top of my head. All of those are great stories that use the Gods, a Greek epic style story telling, and Diana. Yes she is about progress but, she is also a teacher and how do you progress without looking at the past?

    The Gods have always been top dogs in Wonder Woman's universe, since the golden age they where the most powerful beings in her mythos. We've had excellent stories from before the Nu52 that involved powerful gods and changing of times. Taking them away takes hundreds of her stories with them. I don't understand where this hatred for everything involving her Greek mythology based mythos is coming from. It feels like you want to take half of everything that makes Diana, Diana, away.

    Post-Crisis DC Ares was an insane powerhouse of a God; he constantly overpowered Diana, traveled several hundred years into the future to kill every hero and created Genocide, He KILLED High Father with in a fraction of a second, and was powerful enough to challenge 2 sky father level deities. Not to mention his multiple ways of becoming more powerful through conflict. Ares challenging Darkseid use to be an actual debate with his feats, now thanks to the Nu52 and more recently GWW, Ares is a sad shell of his former self.
    In the golden Age Ares (Mars at the time) was bumbling oaf who routinely got humiliated by Diana. The only other Greek God that had any sort of prominent role was Aphrodite.

    My dislike of the Greek Gods is because the over focus on mythology has caused Diana's core traits and themes to be continually down played in order to make her fit into a generic warrior woman mold. All the fun and interesting stuff gets tossed aside.

    Feats don't matter. What matters is good story telling. What matters is thematic consistency. So what if Ares killed Highfather in a fraction of a second? I don't know what story that is from, but I can tell you off the strength of that alone that it's a bad story that deserves to be ignored.

    Ares vs Darkseid should never be a debate at all. Darkseid is the ultimate big bad of the entire DC cosmos. Ares can't even solidly claim to be the arch-nemesis of the least important (In DC's eyes, not mine) member of the trinity.

  7. #22

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    Talking about Greek Gods, what are the best story arcs with them on Wonder Woman books?

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Hulk View Post
    Talking about Greek Gods, what are the best story arcs with them on Wonder Woman books?
    The New 52 Wonder Woman Azzarello run is fairly common to recommend since it’s probably the most focus they got in a Wonder Woman book. The JLD storyline, “The Witching Hour”, was also pretty fun but focuses on Hecate rather than the Olympians.

    Rucka’s first run on the character had some interesting uses of them, mainly “Eyes of the Gorgon” and “Land of the Dead”, with a running storyline of the first generation of Olympians being supplanted by Ares and Athena.

  9. #24
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    I think that the Greek Pantheon is one of this elements of Wonder Woman’s lore that waxes and wanes very much off what the writers want to do with Wonder Woman herself.

    I tend to find that the more of an actual character they are, the better they are, and that they do better when there’s an air of the Terry Pratchet-style awareness of their Blue And Orange Morality - having Ares genuinely not operate on any kind of morality and instead an ethos of aggression and assertiveness, which he’s aware of, or having Circe being someone who likes to evolve with the times as a benefit of being a demi-goddess instead of a straight up goddess.

    ...If I had to adapt Wonder Woman, I suppose I might treat the Olympians as a remnant if their former power, with some big names and most of the little names forgotten or fallen to Tartarus, but with the survivors being still at full strength... but evolved.

    Like, imagine a Pantheon where Athena now reigns in place of fallen Zeus, as her wisdom and intelligence aspects allowed her to adapt the most, while Poseidon has faded to the background because of Atlantis’s fall long ago, and where Hades is basically a bored jailer and the only one of the three brothers who’s still in a similar dignified position, while Aphrodite and Ares have managed to maintain power by evolving - Ares into the more Roman-style configuration of Mars, becoming a god of soldiering instead or warrior, while Aphrodite has become entangled with the politics of love. Hera, Helios, Dionysus, and others are effcfetively out of the picture, but maybe lost somewhere, wandering the world. And these fallen gods and Demi-gods sometimes compete with each other to try and rise again; perhaps Zeus met Ms. Sandsmark while trying to recover some Olympian artifact, while Circe has her eyes on becoming some kind of trickster goddess to replace Hermès.
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  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The New 52 Wonder Woman Azzarello run is fairly common to recommend since it’s probably the most focus they got in a Wonder Woman book. The JLD storyline, “The Witching Hour”, was also pretty fun but focuses on Hecate rather than the Olympians.

    Rucka’s first run on the character had some interesting uses of them, mainly “Eyes of the Gorgon” and “Land of the Dead”, with a running storyline of the first generation of Olympians being supplanted by Ares and Athena.
    Thanks! I will check them all. I've heard great things about JLD!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Hulk View Post
    Thanks! I will check them all. I've heard great things about JLD!
    I cannot derec Azzarello's Wonder Woman hard enough. It's a story that feels like it has active contempt for everything Wonder Woman stands for.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Diana since her begins had the Greek gods in them. It's more of how big a role do they have. With Azz she was the supporting cast. In terms of her powers I feel that it should never have been that she is Zeus's kid. Rather like Marston's, she got all her powers from her Amazon training. That the Gods simple amplify that to make her stronger. Easy has that

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Hulk View Post
    Thanks! I will check them all. I've heard great things about JLD!
    JLD is fun, yeah. It’s a low bar but it’s the best use of WW on a team book.

  14. #29
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    In the golden Age Ares (Mars at the time) was bumbling oaf who routinely got humiliated by Diana. The only other Greek God that had any sort of prominent role was Aphrodite.

    My dislike of the Greek Gods is because the over focus on mythology has caused Diana's core traits and themes to be continually down played in order to make her fit into a generic warrior woman mold. All the fun and interesting stuff gets tossed aside.

    Feats don't matter. What matters is good story telling. What matters is thematic consistency. So what if Ares killed Highfather in a fraction of a second? I don't know what story that is from, but I can tell you off the strength of that alone that it's a bad story that deserves to be ignored.

    Ares vs Darkseid should never be a debate at all. Darkseid is the ultimate big bad of the entire DC cosmos. Ares can't even solidly claim to be the arch-nemesis of the least important (In DC's eyes, not mine) member of the trinity.

    Diana is trapped in warrior woman mode because of a lack of vision and interest from DC part. Not because of the Gods. We have seen interesting stories involving the Gods and Diana. The Gods have always been a part of her mythos. and as such, they shouldn't be treated as punching bags that anybody can beat.


    Ares used to be a powerhouse capable of facing darkseid. There is no reason why his best feats should be ignored, just because you seem to think he shouldn't be that powerful. darkseifd himself is not always writen as the top big bad of DC. Superman, Wonder Woman, Powergirl etc have been able to give darkseid a fight one on one. The only thing keeping Ares and other Wondie villains from being bigger threats(like they used to be), is the poor writing in recent years. If DC views WW as the least important, well that shows how much they are lacking in terms of knowing the potential of their brands. Marvel has been pushing captain marvel a lot for example. And it paid off. Years ago nobody would have thought she would get a billion dollar movie, and would become the new face of marvel movies and their top female hero. Yet here she is. Getting the spotlight, able to shine, to be seen as a powerhouse and a face that matters a lot within her verse. Yet DC can't do half of that with the most iconic female hero ever that paid the way? WW has proven her worth many times, the most recent one being her 2017 hit film. Of course that good story telling matter. But i think feats are part of a story. It's not fair to talk about how powerful WW and the Gods are, and then treat them all as lightweight. WW and her mythos should be an important part of DC. In terms of story telling and in terms of power. Since she is supposed to be one of earth's most powerful defenders. It wouldn't take much to treat her character and verse with more respect. DC wouldn't lose anything for putting some more effort into the quality of the writing that they give to Diana's world.
    Last edited by mystical41; 07-11-2020 at 09:41 AM.

  15. #30
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    DC outright owns Darkseid. He is exclusively theirs.

    DC does not own Ares. No one does, as is he is public domain.

    There is no question which character DC will favor.

    Similarly, DC owns the Fourth World. It does not own the Greco-Roman mythology, which is also public domain.

    The New Gods will always get more favorable treatment than the Greek pantheon at DC.
    Last edited by daBronzeBomma; 07-11-2020 at 10:26 AM.

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