Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 45
  1. #1
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    162

    Default The Greek Gods in Wonder Woman

    Eversince the Nu52 started we've seen much more from the Gods than before. They're used outside her title more often too, however is this a positive or a negative?

    In current storylines the Gods are more often than not used as canon fodder for different character to show how powerful they are. This is mostly thanks to Snyder's use of them in his JL and METAL runs. Batman kills Ares with his helmet and takes his power in the Merciless (ignoring that Ares apparently needs a helm that multiplies his power by 100), he also fights all the gods and destroys Olympus. Cheetah "kills" Poseidon in JL, Poseidon goes to a god version of the underworld (immortal gods die too, apparently), then he's chained by cheetah and forced to do her biding. Zeus gets his butt handed to him by a much weaker version of Darkseid. Cheetah "kills" Aphrodite. Ares gets wiped around by Wonder Woman and "DARK" Shazam. I could go on but, its just sad.

    These are beings that 1) Give both SHAZAM and Wonder Woman, Wonder girl, and Donna their powers and 2) are DC's equivalent to MARVEL's Norse Gods. I am tired of seeing characters that are apart of Diana's mythos get stomped and beaten in the most unflattering ways. These are beings that control aspects of the multiverse and massive threats in the Wondermythos. I feel like they should be treated with some more respect.

    So, I posted some of the Gods' respect thread. Take a look for yourselves. I believe this is a major downgrade and not only makes the Gods look bad, but also makes Diana look bad.

    How do you feel about the Gods in DC currently and before the Nu52 changes?
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  2. #2
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    954

    Default

    The gods being public domain figures is probably what will keep them as fodder for the characters DC outright owns. Batman killing Ares in Metal was eye-rolling I guess but so where the origins of just about all the other Batmen in that event to me at least.

    However outside of Diana's main patron goddesses and Ares however, I don't have much attachment to the other members of the pantheon. Some have had their moments and story lines I've enjoyed (Hera, Hermes, etc) but otherwise I'd prefer them as background characters for the most part. Remember around the time of the movie on other sites I use to go to that some where wondering what future sequels would do for villains since they assumed 90% of WW's rogues gallery was Greek mythology.
    Last edited by Gaius; 07-09-2020 at 05:44 PM.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,571

    Default

    To be frank, I think the Olympians presence in Diana's title ought to be dialed back.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    417

    Default

    They're freaking Gods. They're THE Gods. They should be present in her title and titles involved with characters in her Mythos ( Donna, for example, in Titans, etc). They should be amongst the most powerful entities in the universe, and not beings for random characters to kill. They should be used lightly, and i prefer them in their original, classic form.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Toulouse, France
    Posts
    3,524

    Default

    I think that it stems from the fact that most writers/editors at DC don't really see them as Gods and Goddesses, but just gods and goddesses. Basically, last issue cemented that the one true God is the Presence (so, Abrahamic God) and JL recently did the same with Tartarus being beaten down by the Specter so easily). I really don't like it, for a variety of reasons. Even Tynion's use of Hecate, while entertaining and great in his JLD run, was somewhat problematic for plenty of reasons.

    But sadly, Monotheism is the dominant faith in the Western World, so I'm afraid Gods and Goddesses of all Pantheons will continue to be belittled that way for a loooooooooong time.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Green Bay, WI
    Posts
    5,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    To be frank, I think the Olympians presence in Diana's title ought to be dialed back.

    Same here. Keep them as background characters since any comic, movie, or cartoon can use public domain characters. These characters often hog the spotlight from original characters created in Diana's world.
    Currently Reading:Death Metal, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Legion of Super Heroes, Shazam, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    I feel playing into the myth thing is playing into what makes Diana unique. Having a bunch myth based characters doesn’t hurt Thor.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I feel playing into the myth thing is playing into what makes Diana unique. Having a bunch myth based characters doesn’t hurt Thor.
    Yeah, but Wonder Woman isn't Thor. Wonder Woman was designed have a much more dynamic and broad world, of which certain Greek Gods (Namely Ares/Mars and Aphrodite) played a part, but her story did not revolve around the gods.

    making the gods such a huge part of her setup makes her world smaller and cheapens her mythos.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,461

    Default

    I think there are problems in several different directions with how Greek mythology is used in Wonder Woman.

    To a degree I can agree about overuse, but I'd argue it's not simply overuse. It's both overuse and poor use, and arguably a poor understanding of Greek (and other polytheistic) mythology in various ways. The only writer that I think grokked this was G Willow Wilson. Rucka had some statements that showed that he somehow got this on an intellectual level, but he never managed to make that understanding reach the actual text on paper.

    Here are some of my own "guidelines" in how I'd like to see Diana interact with her mythological background.

    Wonder Woman (and the Amazons) are here to help humanity, not to be actors in some divine "game" between gods.

    Every god can be mistaken, and they are not really moral beings.

    Every interpretation of the Greek gods and mythology involving Wonder Woman should be informed by feminism. (This is indeed one of my main beefs with how Circe is handled by Wonder Woman writers, as they took the old myths and added misogyny to it.)

    Rather than working with characters or monsters, go back to stories.

    And perhaps most importantly, bring back the fun to Wonder Woman.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think there are problems in several different directions with how Greek mythology is used in Wonder Woman.

    To a degree I can agree about overuse, but I'd argue it's not simply overuse. It's both overuse and poor use, and arguably a poor understanding of Greek (and other polytheistic) mythology in various ways. The only writer that I think grokked this was G Willow Wilson. Rucka had some statements that showed that he somehow got this on an intellectual level, but he never managed to make that understanding reach the actual text on paper.

    Here are some of my own "guidelines" in how I'd like to see Diana interact with her mythological background.

    Wonder Woman (and the Amazons) are here to help humanity, not to be actors in some divine "game" between gods.

    Every god can be mistaken, and they are not really moral beings.

    Every interpretation of the Greek gods and mythology involving Wonder Woman should be informed by feminism. (This is indeed one of my main beefs with how Circe is handled by Wonder Woman writers, as they took the old myths and added misogyny to it.)

    Rather than working with characters or monsters, go back to stories.

    And perhaps most importantly, bring back the fun to Wonder Woman.
    In my opinion, gww didn't do anything for the Gods. She portrayed Ares more like a typical brick similar to Marvel Ares. Instead of an actual God. Aphrodite got killed by Cheetah in a lame way. The same way Diana's previously unbreakable gear got destroyed.

    The problem of the Gods is how poorly they are used. Like others said, they aren't really treated as Gods. They are used as stepping stones for other characters. This happens to Wonder Woman herself too.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    In my opinion, gww didn't do anything for the Gods. She portrayed Ares more like a typical brick similar to Marvel Ares. Instead of an actual God. Aphrodite got killed by Cheetah in a lame way. The same way Diana's previously unbreakable gear got destroyed.

    The problem of the Gods is how poorly they are used. Like others said, they aren't really treated as Gods. They are used as stepping stones for other characters. This happens to Wonder Woman herself too.
    You might disagree with how Wilson used the gods, but what I'm talking about here is much more their portrayal in the form of personality and effects.

    Ares's appearance on earth had direct and clear effects, and even when he tried to change his ways his intrinsic nature of violence, rage, and impulsivity shone through. Aphrodite's death had likewise real and serious effects on both the setting and plot, even though it was rushed and poorly executed. She also had plenty of personality but also blind spots that really bit both her and Wonder Woman.

    And then we have Atlantiades, where Wilson dug deep into Greek mythology and created a real intersex character with lots of personality, who complicated all the personal relationships around them.
    Last edited by kjn; 07-10-2020 at 02:21 PM. Reason: clarity
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #12
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Yeah, but Wonder Woman isn't Thor. Wonder Woman was designed have a much more dynamic and broad world, of which certain Greek Gods (Namely Ares/Mars and Aphrodite) played a part, but her story did not revolve around the gods.

    making the gods such a huge part of her setup makes her world smaller and cheapens her mythos.
    I feel like we can have both though. Of all the marvel characters Thor is one that Diana most closely resembles. Its not a negative comparison.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I feel like we can have both though. Of all the marvel characters Thor is one that Diana most closely resembles. Its not a negative comparison.
    Diana shouldn't resemble Thor though. That's a massive waste of her potential

  14. #14
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Diana shouldn't resemble Thor though. That's a massive waste of her potential
    I'm not saying that she should be exactly like him, I'm saying its not a bad comparison. If Diana being compared to the most powerful Avenger that is also seeing an unprecedented fan base resurgence due to the marvel movies is a waste of potential, then I don't know what to tell you. I feel like Diana having Greek epic/tragedy style stories ON TOP OF her basic superhero stuff would be a unique character and universe difference from Batman's detective/Noir style and Superman's Syfy/space adventure style. This is not to say she can't have those styles of stories but, those are more unique to Superman and Batman.

    I like her original rouges gallery, I think the ones that have been updated by Orlando are freaking great and that more should be too. But, this aversion from Greek myth, in large part due to its poor and over use starting at Brian Azzerello's Nu52 relaunch, is not a positive sign to me. Just as the downgrade of the Gods has effected their perception of power and authority in the greater universe, so has the downgrade in Diana's power. Just as other users have said the Greek Gods are the top tier beings in the Wonderverse, Ares is basically Diana's personal Thanos and should constantly be on Darkseid's radar. Half the pantheon gave Diana her powers, If the GODS can be steam rolled over by just about anyone why should writers give Diana any real challenges?
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    3,200

    Default

    A lot of this seems to be Bat-god BS and not general power levels though. Sure it was interesting seeing Superman go at it with Apollo and win, but that was a special case because just standing near Apollo super-charges a Kryptonian.

    The gods shouldn't be unbeatable, but they should make street-level characters look like power-less weaklings.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •