Should mutants have more of a presence outside the X-Books?

[Ferro]

She's a second generation Pakistani Muslim living in America, the X-men should be able to sympathise with her when it comes to oppression and discrimination but they won't let her in simply because she hasn't got the right genes. That they can't is a sign they're no longer their old selves who would greet someone like her with open arms. There are untold numbers of people who travel to other countries for safety, Krakao's not one of them. And this is not simply about the immigrants or tourists, this is about the skills and knowledge foreigners will bring to make Krkaoa stronger as a nation.

Krakoa has superpowers and alien alies, they have 0 necessity for humans, every bit of shiar tech surpasses anything humans can provide and they are more trustworthy , you have no garantee any human that is "alligned" with krakoa isnt actually a spy or a new type of anti mutant weapon, it be an immensly stupid move.
Mutants can easly even completly leave earth once their population is self sufficient, mars and the shiar empire are much better alternatives than earth and humanity, it has been proven time and time again.
Hell it even seems krakoa manages to get along with the kree-skrull alliance.

[Ferro]

Captain America stands for the ideal of America...not the government. And yes...he will stand up for the 1st Amendment Rights of all people...even if he doesn't agree with them. An anti-mutant rally (in-universe) is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church and their nonsense and the Illinois Nazis at Skokie in the 1970s (IRL). So long as an organization is peacefully assembling...no matter what their message....they are constitutionally protected.

Even in Cap's own book....the Watchdogs were threatening an artist who depicted sexually graphic images. Cap was there to protect the guy...but made it very clear he did not like the guys art.

See for the rest of the worldn, everything you just said just helps my original point.
American ideals vary drasticly depending where you're from.

[Chris0013]

See for the rest of the worldn, everything you just said just helps my original point.
American ideals vary drasticly depending where you're from.

That view is based on what politicians at the time are saying and doing about their interpretation of the ideal...not the ideal itself.

You even see it here...as I said above...supporting the right to assemble does not mean you support the message. But there are people even here in the US who will say..."you support the right of Nazis to assemble..you're a Nazi because you support it"

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So you agree that no nation is perfect? Good...then they should all be held to the same standard you are applying to Krakoa and you should not expect them to be without issues to address.

Except nobody is holding Krakoa to a fair standard. Pardoning Apocalypse and others is seen as grounds for nuking Krakoa based on some of the frothing-on-the-mouth posts and comments here when no one applies that to the many times Thor and Asgard have given Loki a free pass, or the passes that Black Bolt has given Maximus in Attilan, or the numerous times that SHIELD and Fantastic Four have intervened in Latveria to either topple and/or restore Doom. Krakoa isn't founded on genocide, on colonialism, on displacing the original settlers behind like so many other Western nations. There's absolutely no comparison there. There's a difference between fair and reasoned doubts and skepticism about Krakoa which is openly shared and expressed numerous times in Hickman's run and in the satellites, and comments which go so far in the other direction as to be unrecognizable to any reader.

Hickman clearly intended the X-Men to challenge readers and make them rethink ideas with which they are familiar with, and make them rethink their safe assumptions. In other words, make the X-Men Uncanny again. So yeah, Krakoa isn't supposed to be perfect. Xavier himself says clearly:

"It's distasteful, I know...this business of running a nation. I pray that we never get used to it. That we never grow cold from it. That we never learn to love it. It's been said that when a parent has a child, they never get a good night's rest again. Well, I have millions of children, and I haven't slept in decades... I may never sleep again... Now the same may be true of you.... But they will. In soft fields of lush green... Staring at the stars and dreaming of a future where they hold those stars in their hands. This is what we will give them. A home. A nation. And someday in the future...the world."
— Professor X, House of X #6.

But that doesn't mean that we as readers are supposed to, or are expected to think that Krakoa is some evil nation or anything. That's just absurd and ridiculous. Hickman wants you to care for Krakoa, and hope for Krakoa. Obviously, Hickman's writing a long story and eventually, things might take a downturn but until then you are supposed to care for the project.

Krakoa isn't a racist state at all. It's a state formed in response to persecution, allowing mutants dignity and freedom to find their identity, and for them as a nation to take their place and role in the world stage.

And even then, Xavier hasn't completely given up on the Dream. He tells the people at Davos in HOX#4, that "a part of me will never give up" on the dream. And Namor calls out Xavier for this:

Namor: So let me see if I understand you clearly. You're inviting all the mutants on this planet to live together on your perfect little island. The good...the evil...and those beyond such quaint descriptors.
Xavier: Yes, we are, Namor. And we want you to join us. Please...come home.
Namor: It's kind of you to ask. But if I'm comprehending the real reason you're doing this, it's because you've finally realized that you are not them...and that they will never accept you or love you—not because you don't deserve it—but because they envy you. They hate your superiority. And they always will. It's good that you finally figured this out...but let me ask you: Do I strike you as someone who's just now realized how much better I am than everyone else? And do you actually think I believe you feel that way, too? Go away, little man. And don't come back until you really mean it.
-- Powers of X #5, written by Hickman.

mutants are still building their nation
its also only been created because of the horrible treatment mutants get outside.

I don't see why they should have open borders right away?

Exactly.

Most Americans can barely scrape up the income to fly across the country but their real problem is that they can't enter a tiny island in the middle of the ocean without an escort.

When he's right, he's right.

[Chris0013]

There was a She Hulk story a couple years back ( https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/She-Hulk_Vol_1_163 ) that involved a teenage mutant ( https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Betha...my_(Earth-616) ). She was harassed by an anti-mutant group and her mother assaulted the leader of the group and was sent to jail. Unfortunately the series was cancelled and they never followed up on this character and her story.

This is the sort of story I am talking about...mutants just living normal lives in the world and what they face. Yes she was harassed by scum bags...but she was also elected class president....so apparently not every human was against her.

As well...whatever became of MUSE ( https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Mutan...ne_(Earth-616) )? Since Xavier went form Co-Existence to Superiority...have they broken away from him? To see them show up to help someone like the girl referenced above...outside of an X-Book...would be interesting.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Kamala has attilan and the united states of america and her parents, mutants have krakoa.

Mutants go to any nation they want, that respect isn't returned. Kamala Khan would be a valued member to any society that accepts her, the only reason she's not to Krakoa is not because of her character its due to her not being a specific species.

Selene and apocalypse have a large body count, but not comparable to the genocide and colonization employed by western civilizations, they are individuals.

The only reason Selene hasn't got a much higher body count is because people are able to stop her committing genocide. The I say ancient Rome, I mean all of it, not a part of it. Apocalypse has destroyed countless civilisations, and he doesn't stop at humans. He'd have a bodycount in the millions, conservatively. Neither regrets any of it. These beings are so powerful they don't require armies and Apocalypse has only gotten stronger over time. These are very comparable to what humans have done. Apocalypse is imperialism incarnate. Whatever countries or species stands before him, they're either become his slaves or he'll destroy them utterly. It's admirable to want justice for mutants when they're on the relieving end of injustice, monstrous mutants should be under he same scrutiny when they are the oppressors Xavier is protecting mutant kind from. That's why the X-men were formed.

Also Grenada suffers severely from gentrification and long standing issues derived from colonialism, it was under british rule until 1974, and like every other small island that has gone trough hundreds of years under european or USA rulersip, trust and belive me many people there wish they could have the control and independency to take care of their own people, instead many are reduced to second class citizens while "immigrants" from priveledged first world countries make these islands their vacation paradises while the natives deal with increasing living costs , sexual tourism, issues with the increasing global warming.

Except not all immigrants did that, they get immigrants from numerous countries. Not all immigrants are from First World countries and not all immigrants from those First World countries do that.Control and independence is not solely cutting country off from immigration and tourism.

Letting people in doesnt mean the natives are respected and have the agency to benefit from it, many times like how mark zuckenberg was going to sue native hawaians to take their land to build a mansion, the people that actually were born in said islands are reduced to second class citizens.

Except not all immigrants or tourists are rich white men who destroy things, this is why it's important to have a government that knows how to make sure that they don't get taken over and they can do that without closing the border forever. This stance also encompasses more than rich white men like Zuckerberg, tourism and immigration has a history with every country. As well as the fact this is Marvel, not our Earth. This isn't about just humanity, it's about non-mutants which include Kamala Khan. It's also hypocritical since Krakoa was founded and run by rich white men.

This sort of argument with all due respect, shows you have an extremelly narrow point of view of socio political dynamics in countries that have been opressed, you have no way to be sure anyone that wants to live in krakoa wouldn't demand the island to move away from its original purpose to provide mutants with resources they never had, to apease and make the humans who have 99 % of the world cattered to them, comfortable.

How is this any more of a risk then having numerous super-villains entrenched in its government? It's not like them being mutants will stop them hurting other mutants. Krakoa as a country hasn't been oppressed, many of citizens have in other countries. Humans don't equal rich white people, they are in the species they don't encompass every human in Marvel just like they don't on Earth.
Or at another extreme that these humans aren't spies or have intentions to sabotage the island and take its resources and power for themselves. If anything they'd be more worried about changing it being a military junta and not being able to vote, but the mutants should be doing anyway and only Emma Frost has noticed this needs to change. President Emma Frost would be an intriguing idea.

Krakoa has the priviledge many island states dont, the ability to control and to protect itself and it's interests, once they want to bring humans to visit, it will be by their own rules and process, but since it's a young nation and has already been atacked by outsiders, it be suicidal to allow anyone you can't trust or bargain with in.
And for what? to make the humans that in decades have never once lifted a finger to help or even give basic respect? they can go to any other tropical island.

Krkaoa has many privileges real world countries don't, which is why it's important they don't get lost in the conversation. Marvel is like our Earth, but not exactly. Non-humans, not just humanity. Of course it'll be by their own rules, no-one is suggesting humanity conquer Krakoa or stop it from being a haven for mutants. People just question how they do this (cartels, you know the rest), and with what they've done like they've done they've earned the scrutiny. It has been attacked by outsiders, that's the risk all countries take and it's incredibly strange that their borders are so filled with holes. Krakoa has also launched spy missions to steal technology from America and got numerous people killed because they unleashed Sabre tooth on them, with no regrets. This is why countries have militaries, defence systems and sophisticated radar early alert systems. They have access to Shi'ar tech, they shouldn't be behind the curb on this. Part of being a nation is investing in growth in its economy and population, tourism and immigration does both. Humans have helped mutants from the beginning. Did you know Senator Kelly was instrumental in getting Bastian shut down in Operation: Zero Tolerance? SHIELD, a human organisation who also has mutants on its payroll (like Kitty Pryde), was the hammer that smashed his organisation to pieces. The X-men were on the run, scattered and imprisoned. Moria MacTaggert, when she was human, was a valued friend, girlfriend and fighter for mutants. Has been since early Claremont.

This argument is just very entitled, it's very much like a spoiled child that normally has 60 gifts for christmas now has 59 because someone else that never had a gift finaly get's one and throws an enourmous tantrum, when you are used to inequality and benefit from it, equality feels like a personal injustice.

Equality is a term used within a nation, its about all groups having full rights - this is not a thing in Krakoa. Every nation has immigration and tourism, even North Korea.

Mutant's have no responsibility to humanity, plain and simple.

Non-humans, not just humanity. That lack of responsibility also applies to its own citizens, and the amount of mutants getting abused is increasing. Where's the concern for their rights?

Edit: Apocalypse's bodycount would be all of humanity had he detonated his gene bomb made to eradicate every human on Earth and that's not getting into every time line or future where he creates a dystopia.

[Zelena]

Hickman clearly intended the X-Men to challenge readers and make them rethink ideas with which they are familiar with, and make them rethink their safe assumptions. In other words, make the X-Men Uncanny again. So yeah, Krakoa isn't supposed to be perfect.

To me, the reflexion has been short-lived: the characters I once knew have been placed in a doll house and don’t seem to have a independent mind anymore. They behave now in a simplistic way.

But that doesn't mean that we as readers are supposed to, or are expected to think that Krakoa is some evil nation or anything. That's just absurd and ridiculous. Hickman wants you to care for Krakoa, and hope for Krakoa. Obviously, Hickman's writing a long story and eventually, things might take a downturn but until then you are supposed to care for the project.

Before the first comic was released, I thought the idea good but… I don’t care for Krakoa. I cared for the characters.

Krakoa isn't a racist state at all. It's a state formed in response to persecution, allowing mutants dignity and freedom to find their identity, and for them as a nation to take their place and role in the world stage.

Well, the two aren’t mutually exclusive…

And even then, Xavier hasn't completely given up on the Dream. He tells the people at Davos in HOX#4, that "a part of me will never give up" on the dream. And Namor calls out Xavier for this:

Namor: So let me see if I understand you clearly. You're inviting all the mutants on this planet to live together on your perfect little island. The good...the evil...and those beyond such quaint descriptors.
Xavier: Yes, we are, Namor. And we want you to join us. Please...come home.
Namor: It's kind of you to ask. But if I'm comprehending the real reason you're doing this, it's because you've finally realized that you are not them...and that they will never accept you or love you—not because you don't deserve it—but because they envy you. They hate your superiority. And they always will. It's good that you finally figured this out...but let me ask you: Do I strike you as someone who's just now realized how much better I am than everyone else? And do you actually think I believe you feel that way, too? Go away, little man. And don't come back until you really mean it.
-- Powers of X #5, written by Hickman.

I agree with Namor on this: whatever Xavier says, it’s not convincing anymore.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I agree with Namor on this: whatever Xavier says, it’s not convincing anymore.

You don't seem to understand. Namor is actually telling Xavier that he isn't going far enough. He thinks Xavier should be more extreme and not less. When Xavier comes to Namor next time, then Xavier will be even more extreme than now.

Xavier will be like Michael Keaton in Batman

Keaton Batman get nuts.jpg

[Ferro]

anyways, no mutants shouldnt have more of a presence outside the x-books, mutants deserve their own universe where they aren't stiffled by marvel, they have more than enough characters and concepts to sustain itself and the flexibility to create new ones sucessfully.

They should do what allows the x-books to grow, not about the rest of marvel, they can use the eternals or whatever.

[Stormultt Divine]

anyways, no mutants shouldnt have more of a presence outside the x-books, mutants deserve their own universe where they aren't stiffled by marvel, they have more than enough characters and concepts to sustain itself and the flexibility to create new ones sucessfully.

They should do what allows the x-books to grow, not about the rest of marvel, they can use the eternals or whatever.

Can't disagree here.

[Chris0013]

anyways, no mutants shouldnt have more of a presence outside the x-books, mutants deserve their own universe where they aren't stiffled by marvel, they have more than enough characters and concepts to sustain itself and the flexibility to create new ones sucessfully.

They should do what allows the x-books to grow, not about the rest of marvel, they can use the eternals or whatever.

Can't disagree here.

And to me that would be a cop out. Just make it easy for the writers to go with 'all humans are genocidal racists and all mutants are justified in anything because persecution' instead of having to put in effort to make a story more complex or nuanced with regards to humanity, mutants and their interactions.

[Ferro]

And to me that would be a cop out. Just make it easy for the writers to go with 'all humans are genocidal racists and all mutants are justified in anything because persecution' instead of having to put in effort to make a story more complex or nuanced with regards to humanity, mutants and their interactions.

You can achieve said complexity by creating an exclusive universe for the x-books where the writers have control over both sides to truly command the dynamic betwen the two.
because as of now the majority of the "human" sand box is shared amongst a bunch of other offices and writers.

you don't need the avengers, or the fantastic four or whatever, they aren't necessary to tell the story you want to tell, in fact they probably are part of the reason why It doesnt happen, because their mission is to maintain a status quo that is inheritly agaist mutants, but aren't allowed to be called out or seen in a negative light.
If x-men books were in their own universe, they could also have control over the hypotitical human superheroes filling this new earth, showcassing a variety of levels of antagonism or alliances or conections, it would become a part of the franchise and it's mythos.

But on this shared universe we are unfortunatly stuck into, any crossover has proven time and time again as non benefitial to the x-men side, to an almost parisitic level.

[Sutekh]

Regardless of everything else said here, Namor is always a refreshing jerk. I love it.

[Ferro]

Regardless of everything else said here, Namor is always a refreshing jerk. I love it.

eh refreshing eheeehhehehehe

[Rising7]

I think a lot of the dissonance between the X-Men and Avengers/Spidey/etc is that the implications of the X-Men books' typical premise, an emergent mutant population and wider society's reaction to that, is such that it's hard to imagine it not being a huge factor in books throughout the universe a lot of the time. There is a decent case for pushing that more being beneficial to the shared universe.

But at the same time I get the sense writers of the non-X titles would often prefer to focus on things primarily germane to their respective characters and I can see how involving mutants could be burdensome. It's kind of a version of how some consider shared comic book universes to be hamstrung by continuity and common universe elements at times. Also is why I do appreciate when those books take the time to do it; one of my oft-noted examples is in a book about the Hood where one of his associates has a mutant daughter. Another good example is when Freedom Force was running around different titles enforcing mutant registration.

With my present reading habits I have flipped the idea on its head and like to think of 616 as the X-Men's universe with the other heroes inhabiting it. probably a bit delusional on my part, but on the other hand just about every book places its mains at the center of the universe for whatever problems they face.

An interesting and slightly different scenario was the Ultimate universe, where I felt the X-Men and even the Fantastic Four at times were somewhat ill-fitting for that world's idea of a super soldier arms race. rather ironic given those books came out before the Ultimates and have an arguably stronger claim to the foundation of that universe.