Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
The Avengers in the 80s had Roger Stern who is one of Marvel's best writers, and later in the 90s they had Kurt Busiek. Chris Claremont took everyone by surprise when he began his epic 17 year on the X-Men in terms of how a Marvel-intern and nobody became such a big deal and how that transferred to a low-selling title.
The Avengers had their ups and downs and Busiek was great but the title/s haven't had as big a push as the X-men did. It wasn't until Bendis that Marvel really pushed it to huge heights that made them the premiere super-hero team and the current Avengers aren't anywhere near X-men.

*checks notes on history of UK and USA transition to democracy* Let's see slave-based economy for several centuries, restriction of votes to a tiny section of the population, just near 100 years of giving women to vote, owning vast colonies that were run like dictatorships with subject populations denied franchise, segregation, Electoral College
*turns pages* Let's see transition to government changes was achieved via multiple acts of civil strife and violence
Krakao's big on segregation, immigration is non-existent, the island itself hates anything not-human being on it, they don't have an education system, they don't have a modern military or airforce, they don't have elections and openly threaten other nations in global summits with beings known for wiping out nations, and have war criminals which have killed untold numbers of people at their highest levels. They're also founded in 2020, not 220 AD. They would have a large population of second class citizens on the island except as I said above immigration is nonexistent. And have moved onto conquering "nations" like Avalon by installing Mad King Jaime Braddock as Apocalypse's personal puppet. Civil strife and violence occurred in other countries, that's why they fled to Krakao - they are the government and the majority there. They';re not ended in any of this, everybody's going along with Xavier's government with the barest of resistance despite the fact the Quiet Council barely have any laws or a constitution but they prioritised allowing The Crucible - a controversial act where former mutants "fight" Apocalypse in ritual sacrifice to "earn" the right for Apocalypse to kill them so they can resurrected with powers, which is also heavily influenced by jingoism.

And it's not only about those countries, it's the mutants who migrated from them. There should be a large portion ok with something resembling democracy but they're eerily silent on this object. Even if a large portion agrees with the current Quiet Council there should be far more variance in opinions on how it governs, its structure, the individuals and its policies.

Yeah, I don't think anyone can look at the history of England and America and claim that their transition to democracy was peaceful or done without violence. And in the case of America, certainly after 2016, no one can say it's entirely complete either.
Do you expect Krakoa is going to have to do that to get democracy? They don't have those countries baggage.

And anyway, the Quiet Council is still in the middle of preparing its government. It's not yet a democracy, but it's not yet a dictatorship either. So far it's more egalitarian than Asgard and Attilan, and since the FF and Avengers never raised a word about those failed states, they aren't on any ground to preach against Krakoa.
The problem with dictators is that the "transitionary government" becomes permanent, Krakoa is a dictatorship. There are no mechanisms to replace members of the Quiet Council. Attilan is like Krakoa's beta, they have an incredible amount in common with each other.



Look up something called Neoliberalism and the way capitalism has frozen out all alternatives to it since the Cold War. That's kind of what Magneto is talking about. In the way that Western Democracies and Capitalism has made it impossible for real alternative systems or distributive systems to work in any nation in any part of the world, Magneto and Krakoa want to use that to make it so that mutants have a future by beating them at their game. As Denzel Washington says in INSIDE MAN, "I'm getting paid".
They need to find ways to do that without becoming the next super-villains, conquering the world is not what the X-men are about but it is what Magneto is about. You're right that capitalism is far from innocent except not every bad decision in the Cold War the Communists did can be laid at their feet. So far all Krakoa's provided as an alternative is a dictatorship, no accountability, and villains being allowed to abuse the X-men with impunity - Apocalypse is doing this in Excalibur. X-Force, Krakoa's CIA, is a disaster. They even have their own Reagan-esque War on Drugs going on on the side. Sinister has his own Suicide Squad for any "undesirable" mutants. Magneto is allowed to indoctrinate children into his ideology by making him a role model, while the X-men watch without complaints and Exodus makes Scarlet Witch their "Boogey man." Krakoa offers many great things in their culture, however, it's marred by their imperfections which go to its foundations. It's corrupt, abusive, lawless, and riddled with super-villains.

If Krkaoa has been a nation in the classic X-men period and they weren't in it they'd be fighting it like Genosha. Many of these things should be getting unwanted attention from SHIELD, and various super-heroes and other mutants in Marvel. It's a matter of when, not if, we get an X-men vs Avengers event from their activities. They've crossed too many lines.


They have resurrection protocols now. So any mutant killed by any other mutant will be revived...
That's not justice. Those villains aren't being punished or being put on trial for their crimes, instead they're being promoted to the highest office. This "leniency" has cost lives, human with Sabretooth and mutant with Shaw murdering Kitty Pryde. Both the X-men should have known was coming but they did nothing to stop it. Emma valiantly tried to tell Xavier not to bring Shaw back but he overruled her. The past didn't stop being the past in Krakoa.

Hank is still alive, countless other victims of Ultron are dead. It's hard to equate Hank with that. And again from the perspective of the wider-Marvel Universe, the US Government themselves repeatedly give second chances to multiple criminals...such as Norman Osborn, a proven murderer, becoming the Head of SHIELD essentially, and even after repeated acts of crime, sabotage, and treason, he's still landing on his feet working at Ravencroft legally. Likewise, Wilson Fisk is Mayor of the major city in the Marvel Universe.
People don't have to be dead to be victims, Hank turned Ultron on and it erased his memories so it could prepare to take over the world without anyone knowing, then it spent years trying to assault, manipulate, abduct, torture and kill him. And anyone he knew. That's like blaming Michael Dyson for building Skynet in Terminator 2. Governments are frowned by everyone when they do that, and the X-men went onto have an alliance with him during Dark Reign and HYDRA when they conquered America. Super-heroes like Captain America and Daredevil are fighting them as we speak, while Selene is working with him in the Power Elite and Krakoa does nothing. These acts don't become "good" because Krakao does it.

Ultron committed genocide by killing the entire nation of Slorenia. That alone, leaving aside is many other acts of spree killing, is higher than Magneto and Mystique. Most of their actions were localized small-scale terrorist attacks and assassinations after all.
Speaking of Slovenia the X-men were entirely absent from that, and I can't recall them ever commenting on the incident. Magneto's been involved in multiple global scale terrorist attacks like in "Fatal Attractions" and "Magneto War." Mystique created the Days of Future Past future when she assassinated Senator Kelly.