Should mutants have more of a presence outside the X-Books?

[Ferro]

Wonder how long they'll keep the Krak-Narnia thing going? A serpent for every Eden, a Morning Star for every Heaven, I say.

the serpent is the humans and the morning star the phallanx, and im not sure, they kept utopia, jean grey school and the decimation status quo for a sizeable amount of time.

[Iron Maiden]

The serpents are already on Krakoa... Apocalypse, Sabretooth, etc. The paradise will be destroyed from within is what I expect. Marvel won't leave the X-Men in their Utopia for long and it will come down after Hickman leaves, or he will do it himself. Then Marvel can create some new crisis for them.

[Iron Maiden]

Touche I suppose.

I don't know what practical difference there is between not teaching evolution and teaching evolution and creationism side-by-side and pretending it's on parity and kids can simply choose.

This kind of thing usually goes on in the Bible belt. Every state will not be requiring this.

[Ferro]

The serpents are already on Krakoa... Apocalypse, Sabretooth, etc. The paradise will be destroyed from within is what I expect. Marvel won't leave the X-Men in their Utopia for long and it will come down after Hickman leaves, or he will do it himself. Then Marvel can create some new crisis for them.

eh sabertooth wasn’t a issue before krakoa , apocalypse is a snake sure but he isn’t pretending otherwise and krakoa isn’t an utopia by any means , that’s what makes it interesting and engaging. i hope that new crisis it’s an genosha avalon utopia haven krakoa 2000 k crisis where they end up in their own universe.

[Stormultt Divine]

Destroying Krakoa would be a very illogical and predictable move...and back to what? doom and gloom?

Having the nation go through trials and tribulations like any other nation will be more fun than just, "woo lets break this thing that's brought back so many fans".

Give us all a break.
I am waiting on Destiny's return though...very juicy stuff there.

[capandkirby]

Captain america: yeah, no.
No one outside the us buys that maloney, im sorry. You wear the flag you also get everything it entails and it's history of genocide, slavery and imperialism , no matter how many codenames and costumes stove takes and takes off, he always goes back to the white, red and blue, making it meaningless in the end as he returns to a comfortable status as a poster boy.
Also that panel just doesnt cut it for me especially if it's meant to be "tatooed", it's called the "american dream" because youd have to be asleep to believe in it, no matter the amount of pretty misdirections will change that in the eyes of anyone outside that bubble of propaganda, you can enjoy your favorite character but don't patronize me for having an opinion that isn't that outrageous.

and third, I never referenced spider men ever because im not delusional to pretend he isn't the uncontested top dog in marvel, he is also allowed to be self removed to a certain degree and has proven not to need the rest of marvel in any way, in fact seems to be even benefit from higher isolation, my grievences are directed at the rest.

No I’m sorry, because you don’t get to speak for anyone but yourself. You want to throw around the word “patronizing”, well, utilizing the false consensus bias is the way to accomplish that. With the sentence I bolded you are assuming a lot. Here’s what *I*, a fan who finds value in Cap’s message, believes: Every protestor out in the streets for BLM (I, myself joined the protesting at one point) believes that America can be better, and I can safely say this, actually, because if they didn’t believe America could be better they wouldn’t be taking direct action to try and make it better. Every person who has signed a petition or donated money (and, again, I personally did these things) believes in the potential of America to improve upon itself and it’s past. I am not denying America’s troubled history, *Steve* does not deny America’s troubled history on the page and anyone who has read a Cap book would know that. But having optimism in the country’s potential to rise above its torrid past is not a character defect like you’re trying to make it out to be. It, and then taking action in those beliefs, are how things actually improve IRL.

And certainly you are well within your right to be as cynical on life and humanity as your heart desires, I would never try to argue that you can’t. But you come after a character and their concept you don’t get to feign indignation when people more knowledgeable on the subject of that character and their concept push back. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that anyone is obligated to agree with you. And, if it wasn’t clear, I don’t agree with you, in pretty much anything you’ve said in this thread.

Take your desire for the X-Men to be segregated, for example. You are one fan. Out of many. What you want may or may not be realistic based on what Marvel, as a business, and it is just that, a business, and the majority of its paying readership wants. As someone with a stats degree who has worked as a data analyst for over twenty years I can say, with some authority on the subject, that Marvel will follow whatever trajectory with the X-Men, and ALL their franchises, that they find the most profitable. And given that they have the Avengers and the X-Men working together in December’s event, it’s pretty clear they’ve decided separate isn’t it.

[Chris0013]

But...I don't wanna calm down, i wanna keep arguing and stuff =/

Then argue and stuff we will....

Destroying Krakoa would be a very illogical and predictable move...and back to what? doom and gloom?

Having the nation go through trials and tribulations like any other nation will be more fun than just, "woo lets break this thing that's brought back so many fans".

Give us all a break.
I am waiting on Destiny's return though...very juicy stuff there.

That is up to the writers...or the editors if they decide to step up and put their foot down and tell the writers to go in another direction. I have long thought they need to show the pro-mutant...or at least not anti-mutant...humans. All they have done it take it in one direction...negative...for more than 10 years. Look at after the Fall of The Mutants story line when X-Factor was in the news doing recovery and search and rescue....the people and the NYC government hailed them as heroes.

eh sabertooth wasn’t a issue before krakoa , apocalypse is a snake sure but he isn’t pretending otherwise and krakoa isn’t an utopia by any means , that’s what makes it interesting and engaging. i hope that new crisis it’s an genosha avalon utopia haven krakoa 2000 k crisis where they end up in their own universe.

The bad guys will show their true colors given time...and they will most likely be the downfall....mutants will show their own humanity and soon be at each others throats.

No one outside the us buys that maloney, im sorry.

Tell that to the people in the middle east during the Arab Spring who were trying to throw off the yoke of oppression....or the people in Hong Kong protesting the Chinese Communist Government and waving American Flags.

[Iron Maiden]

Destroying Krakoa would be a very illogical and predictable move...and back to what? doom and gloom?

Having the nation go through trials and tribulations like any other nation will be more fun than just, "woo lets break this thing that's brought back so many fans".

Give us all a break.
I am waiting on Destiny's return though...very juicy stuff there.

I prefer to call Krakoa...... New Genosha.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Krakoa is a character first and a land second. So even if Krakoa as a nation dissolves, the character and person of Krakoa, the Living Island, will continue and thrive for future writers to play around with. So I don't think it will end up quite like Genosha.

Hickman has added a lot of mythos to Krakoa. Krakoa was once a vast landmass that was divided into Krakoa and Arrako, and those two islands are slowly being rejoined. So obviously there's going to be stuff to play around there.

So there's a lot of balls in the air juggling in his run right now. Where does that go, who knows?

To X-Men fans, while I share your defensiveness of Hickman's run and Krakoa nationhood, you must not burden Hickman and his writers with the unfair expectation of giving a happy ending. The story hasn't been fully told yet and obviously Hickman has some endgame in mind. You shouldn't burden Hickman and his crew with the false dichotomy that either they are on your side and so the skeptics against us are wrong and so on and so forth.

My feeling is that by the end of this run, Hickman will find a way to resolve some of the conflicts and stories he's introduced, whether that leads to Krakoa being dissolved, the X-Men going back to the Mansion, the Krakoans splintering into factions again...who knows. Based on sales and editorial, and other factors, it could also lead to Krakoa continuing as a status-quo post-Hickman for future writers to play with or not.

It's only been a year, less than a year on account of the pandemic delaying some comics from the scheduled release date. It's still too early to call it.

Hickman is ultimately optimistic...but it's an optimism that earns itself. FF and Avengers started with bleak ideas when he wrote it but eventually ended on a note of hope and triumph ("Everything lives"). So by the end of the run you will have X-Men in a decent place and it will be up to other writers to step up.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Kitty: that's a very clear counter argument for a comment that was quite clearly not meant to be taken seriously.

It was a joke post, however, I don't think the intent behind it was any less true of your opinion on the subject.

Captain america: yeah, no.
No one outside the us buys that maloney, im sorry. You wear the flag you also get everything it entails and it's history of genocide, slavery and imperialism , no matter how many codenames and costumes stove takes and takes off, he always goes back to the white, red and blue, making it meaningless in the end as he returns to a comfortable status as a poster boy.
Also that panel just doesnt cut it for me especially if it's meant to be "tatooed", it's called the "american dream" because youd have to be asleep to believe in it, no matter the amount of pretty misdirections will change that in the eyes of anyone outside that bubble of propaganda, you can enjoy your favorite character but don't patronize me for having an opinion that isn't that outrageous.

This is why it's important to read about characters rather than just assume something about their real opinions and actions. The MCU, which is a faithful rendition of Steve Rogers, is a hit worldwide by every metric. He represents the ideal America for everyone, not what it is. The opinion's not outrageous, it's just not well informed. Everyone thinks that when they don't know the character.

Ironically Krakao has a problematic history itself of embracing imperialism and colonisation as I've explained upthread, it can't get enough of those characters and promote them to the top of the government and align themselves with questionable allies. But these connotations are ignored when bought up.

and third, I never referenced spider men ever because im not delusional to pretend he isn't the uncontested top dog in marvel, he is also allowed to be self removed to a certain degree and has proven not to need the rest of marvel in any way, in fact seems to be even benefit from higher isolation, my grievences are directed at the rest.

Any grievance you have with the rest of Marvel applies to him since he's in it. He's been an Avenger for years now.

the serpent is the humans and the morning star the phallanx, and im not sure, they kept utopia, jean grey school and the decimation status quo for a sizeable amount of time.

That's not how a Garden of Eden metaphor works.

eh sabertooth wasn’t a issue before krakoa , apocalypse is a snake sure but he isn’t pretending otherwise and krakoa isn’t an utopia by any means , that’s what makes it interesting and engaging. i hope that new crisis it’s an genosha avalon utopia haven krakoa 2000 k crisis where they end up in their own universe.

Sabretooth's behaviour on Krkaoa is just being Sabretooth. And Apocalypse is rewarded for it, Xavier won't even punish him about abusing veteran X-men. Then why is defended as such?

[Rzerox21xx]

Im enjoying Coates Captain America and I'm very curious where he takes Selene in his story but by the time the story ends, once Cap and his team foil her plan, if she's actually gonna pay for her crimes or the same thing happened to Sabretooth where Krakoa takes her away before she can be trialed and instead be punished in Krakoa, Im sure it wont sit well for Cap, especially the way how Emma and the Cuckoos acted towards the court that was gonna trialed Creed.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I prefer to call Krakoa...... New Genosha.

Genosha was surprisingly far more multicultural and transparent than Krakao is and that was a country which tried to conquer the world when Magneto ruled it. I'm waiting for some poor writers to inevitably explain why Genosha didn't believe in having a military, defence systems or radar. Or maybe Hickman will address it since Krkaoa is following those principles. They're lucky Cassandra Nova isn't up and running or she'd have destroyed it by now for those very reasons.

[Zelena]

Genosha was surprisingly far more multicultural and transparent than Krakao is and that was a country which tried to conquer the world when Magneto ruled it.

Magneto had always had this need to prove to the world that he was in the right and apparences were important to him. It provided him legitimacy.

I'm waiting for some poor writers to inevitably explain why Genosha didn't believe in having a military, defence systems or radar. Or maybe Hickman will address it since Krkaoa is following those principles. They're lucky Cassandra Nova isn't up and running or she'd have destroyed it by now for those very reasons.

“Fool me once, …” I doubt there will be ever an explanation for Genosha’s lack of defence because it’s completely unexplicable.

[Stormultt Divine]

I don't think anyone is harping on a happy ending because it's comics...there is no end, really.
No one wants whatever the hell the last decade or two was though, the same ole doom & gloom that eventually stopped selling.

New and innovative ideas really do work; see the last year or so.
Whatever happens though, Hickman has my respect and admiration for shaking things up.

[Lucyinthesky]

Magneto had always had this need to prove to the world that he was in the right and apparences were important to him. It provided him legitimacy.

Magneto has changed his point of view a lot of time during the X-men run, this theme of "Magneto was right" is from Morrison´s run and it wasn´t even something Magneto said, it was a reaction of other mutants to the destruction of Genosha.

In reality while he did a number of very valid criticism to the world at large during his time as a 100% villain for their actions and the danger they presented to most of the population including mutants, he didn´t do those criticisms to prove he was right but because part of his life was directly impacted by WW2 and the cold war, even his wish for mutants to have a place to live on their own has roots on the time he lived on Israel. Yet he also accepted he wasn´t right in the violence he used on the world, even in self defense or even the violence he used on other mutants, specially Wanda and Pietro, during brotherhood days, a character who only wan´ts to be prove how right they are would not be able to do this kind of self reflection on their actions.

“Fool me once, …” I doubt there will be ever an explanation for Genosha’s lack of defence because it’s completely unexplicable.

Morrison needed to get rid of it to develop a mutant culture closer to the X-MEN place and didn´t care much if it made sense with the characters or the story previous to his run, another example is Beast characterization. This was a theme on his run imo that was why it was easy to retcon most of it.

I think he also may have disliked the idea of developing a mutant culture that lived under Magneto´s leadership and another that was developed closer to the X-men pov, from what I have seen of him he´s a very white vs black type of writer and would not have the inclination to write about the nuances that grown out of a middle path between Xavier´s and Magneto´s sometimes extreme positions on mutant issues that would be disccussed on different mutant communities, even if he´s a good writer and has the skills to do it.

That´s why I don´t see the time post HoM to Hickman´s run as lost years because while I think Marvel tried a little too hard to make it seem like Cyclops was radicalized, his actions made sense in the state of emergency the mutants were left post decimation and he growth naturally into the middle path between Xavier and Magneto, the mutants needed at that moment of their story. Krakoa as a nation is still developing but it has great potential as well as problematic situations but at least Hickman, Percy at all are working to picture the nuances and differences that exists withing the mutant community and outside of it.

Back on topic I would love for the X-men to interact more with the rest of the marvel universe as long as the characters are written well and their story together is respected, I don´t like the X-men to be punching bags to prop up other characters, neither would I like to see Spider man or the Avengers being used that way, they can have disagreetments as long as there is a reason for it in canon.