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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Mutants not having presence outside of the X-Books creates the problem of them being seen as a monolithic group and not as individuals, which is a problem many minorities face in real life.
    I don't think anyone would call Krakoa a monolith. For one thing they all wear distinct and unique outfits, no single pattern uniforms in sight.

    It also makes the X-Men come off like they only care about their own issues.
    They announced pharmaceutical drugs that can cure major diseases and which are valued and demanded by humans. All they are asking for is something in return. Mutant growth and power will benefit the planet as a whole.

    If they're supposed to be a metaphor for the Civil Rights Movement, they should be everywhere.
    The metaphor of the X-Men is constantly...evolving. Hickman's run addresses issues, at a metaphorical level, that are germane to the 2010s. They are supposed to be the 'Uncanny X-Men', i.e. challenging the reader's sense of normal. That is why Hickman's run leans so heavily into the weird and strange. John Byrne who was a collaborator with Claremont in the landmark X-Men run of the 70s once made a complaint about his partner that was actually insightful and even complimentary, unknown to him. Byrne said that Claremont gradually made the X-Men more and more extreme with no normal center in the story...it was supposed to be Jean then she became Phoenix, then Scott but he had Space-Pirate Dad and hidden brothers...and eventually no one was normal. But that's the point of the X-Men, it's the one comic where you have weird and strange characters who are outsiders whose viewpoint the reader is supposed to readily accept, thereby challenging the reader's sense of normal in the process.

    The sense of uncanniness of the X-Men is strengthened when you as a reader are directly in their shoes without civilian supporting characters serving as conduit. And that uncanniness is still revolutionary and radical as is apparent in the same way a lot of commenters here are disturbed by it.

    And in any case, readers have found plenty to relate in Hickman. Like Marlon James, a Jamaican writer, connected it to the Black Lives Matter event,

    Marlon James
    Back in the stone age when I was a teenager, reading X-Men and being in the X-Men felt like the same thing. Feared and hated by the world theyíve sworn to protect? Feared and hated by the cool kids whose homework I kept doing for free? At 14 I didnít see much difference. And yet, those 22 pages every month were all that saved me from harming myself. I drifted from comics several years ago, but Jonathan Hickmanís House of X brought me roaring back. Ironic, then, that a book that still fills me with such hope kicks off with the loss of it. Mutants, having finally lost faith in humanity ever doing the right thing, have decided to rely only on themselves. Bleak for some maybe, but as I look at my Black Lives Matter T-shirt, I know exactly what it means when you realise thereís no justice, just us. If this really is the season where the best you can do for others is care for yourself, then House of X is the urgent love letter that arrived just in time.
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...d-offer-escape

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    pretty much what i said. 'Segregation is wrong'.
    I am finding it weird that people want to apply something as serious and dark as segregation in the context of a comic book shared universe optics. It's not remotely the same kind of thing.

    Try and understand, the "shared universe" as a concept only ever existed to sell books and titles. That's it. It never had deeper significance than that. The Avengers need to be plastered everywhere and absorb everything and make everything about them because they by themselves have no mythos or interest on their own. The X-Men though, and also Spider-Man, don't need the Avengers. If tomorrow the Marvel Universe decided to corral X-Men and Spider-Man to their own separate AU where they are the only individuals with their abilities there, then the stories would still sell and still make sense. Whereas Iron Man without Avengers is a non-starter. Captain America, similiar.

    The X-Men as a title and concept works best when its characters are uncanny and invite the readers to share a fantasy of being weird and different and so on. Them being a little adrift and apart from the rest of Marvel is a feature and not a bug.

    Grouping all your minorities together and giving them there own place/books/world etc. is wrong.
    Is Wakanda segregationist then for being majority POC? Or is Asgard segregationist for being majority Aesir and Einharjar?

    There used to be mutants all over the Marvel universe teaming up and crossing over with all sorts of books. That's what i'd like to see them do again.
    Well House of M, an event designed to kneecap the X-Men and put the Avengers at the center of Marvel happened. The character behind House of M, "no more mutants" is the pretender Wanda Maximoff.

    The fact that the mutants sat back and ignored the Civil War and the registration act.... when for DECADES they've been fighting against registration is when I pretty much wrote them off.
    They experienced a genocide at Genosha at the hands of sentinels against whom the Avengers and the FF never did anything meaningful against, and then a former Avenger, Wanda Maximoff, deprived most mutants of their powers as a direct result of chicanery and gaslighting (making her forget her children) done to her which the Avengers had knowledge of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The way I see it, if mutants had had more of a presence outside the X-related books, then other superheroes would have had to seriously address the ongoing issue of anti-mutant sentiment and policies among the people they protected and the government/authorities with which they cooperated, instead of shoving it into a corner and acting like they couldn't see what was being inflicted on mutants --- including mutants they knew, trusted, and respected as allies and fellow heroes --- by many of those same people and institutions. To me, that the Avengers and the Fantastic Four didn't raise a voice to speak or a finger to act about things like the Mutant Registration Act, but were ready to tear into each other over a Registration Act that expanded its reach to anyone and everyone with powers, mutant or not, says --- or at least implies --- a lot of unpleasant things about how they really look at and think about mutants. In fact, the last X-Men run before Jonathan Hickman's had mutants being threatened with state-sponsored medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that would negate the X-gene from ever expressing itself, which went into wide public distribution almost as soon as the X-Men were presumed dead and gone, and that was when they weren't just being outright hunted down and killed or experimented upon, and did anyone else stand up against that? Sadly, no, so as unsettling as Krakoa can be, it wouldn't have come to be seen as necessary if not for the rest of the world essentially abandoning mutants to genocidal extermination.
    Exactly.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I don't think anyone would call Krakoa a monolith. For one thing they all wear distinct and unique outfits, no single pattern uniforms in sight.



    They announced pharmaceutical drugs that can cure major diseases and which are valued and demanded by humans. All they are asking for is something in return. Mutant growth and power will benefit the planet as a whole.



    The metaphor of the X-Men is constantly...evolving. Hickman's run addresses issues, at a metaphorical level, that are germane to the 2010s. They are supposed to be the 'Uncanny X-Men', i.e. challenging the reader's sense of normal. That is why Hickman's run leans so heavily into the weird and strange. John Byrne who was a collaborator with Claremont in the landmark X-Men run of the 70s once made a complaint about his partner that was actually insightful and even complimentary, unknown to him. Byrne said that Claremont gradually made the X-Men more and more extreme with no normal center in the story...it was supposed to be Jean then she became Phoenix, then Scott but he had Space-Pirate Dad and hidden brothers...and eventually no one was normal. But that's the point of the X-Men, it's the one comic where you have weird and strange characters who are outsiders whose viewpoint the reader is supposed to readily accept, thereby challenging the reader's sense of normal in the process.

    The sense of uncanniness of the X-Men is strengthened when you as a reader are directly in their shoes without civilian supporting characters serving as conduit. And that uncanniness is still revolutionary and radical as is apparent in the same way a lot of commenters here are disturbed by it.

    And in any case, readers have found plenty to relate in Hickman. Like Marlon James, a Jamaican writer, connected it to the Black Lives Matter event,
    As a black man myself, I’d tell any group, who’s leadership is riddled w. criminals, trying to brainwash me into segregating myself on an island and preaching at me how I’m so superior to everyone else to step off.

    Actually i -have- had that happen to me before after a fashion. About twenty years ago my spouse, children, and myself were stuck in traffic, and a black man in button up shirt and tie was trying to hand out literature of some sort to various vehicles. I rolled up our windows and tried to ignore him as he tried repeatedly to get my attention. When it became clear i wasn’t interested, he looked at my (not black) spouse and my mixed race children and loudly told me “it’s all right brother, you go right ahead polluting our ppl’s bloodline”.
    To which I opened the car door right on his face, possibly breaking his nose, judging by the blood on the window.

    No, I’m not a fan of the current X Men’s direction. It reeks of the worst possible things.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I am finding it weird that people want to apply something as serious and dark as segregation in the context of a comic book shared universe optics. It's not remotely the same kind of thing.

    Try and understand, the "shared universe" as a concept only ever existed to sell books and titles. That's it. It never had deeper significance than that. The Avengers need to be plastered everywhere and absorb everything and make everything about them because they by themselves have no mythos or interest on their own. The X-Men though, and also Spider-Man, don't need the Avengers. If tomorrow the Marvel Universe decided to corral X-Men and Spider-Man to their own separate AU where they are the only individuals with their abilities there, then the stories would still sell and still make sense. Whereas Iron Man without Avengers is a non-starter. Captain America, similiar.

    The X-Men as a title and concept works best when its characters are uncanny and invite the readers to share a fantasy of being weird and different and so on. Them being a little adrift and apart from the rest of Marvel is a feature and not a bug.
    The characters don't know they are mere characters in a book designed to make money. That's just a straw-man. Marvel is the one who decided that 'mutant = minority.' How do you NOT draw a parallel then to 'This school is for the minorities and the 'other' people get to live elsewhere.' Heck, I can't remember if it was an early comic or a cartoon show or something but I remember Spider-man trying to join up and get some better training... and being flat out told by xavier he wasn't a mutant he can't stay here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Is Wakanda segregationist then for being majority POC? Or is Asgard segregationist for being majority Aesir and Einharjar?
    When Thor dropped Asgard in the middle of North America and said this is ours and no one who isn't like us can go in.... then yeah! Pretty much. Wakanda has always been about isolationist. But most of these 'not humans' have their own planets and dimensions and it really isn't comparable. You can't blame the skrulls for their planet being full of skrulls. But when you're talking about taking children and teens away from their parents because they're 'more like us then they are you'.... then yeah, that's a pretty dark concept. For all Mutants want to pretend they are the next step of evolution (a crap concept anyway since Apocalypse has been running around since ancient egypt and they're STILL a minority), but as much as they want to push that they aren't human... their parents are, their children may be. The x-gene is a random crap shoot. It's not like they are or ever were a 'people'... until they decide to band together and decide that the guy who can understand languages is the same species as the guy who has wings and the guy with laser eyes and they should all be by themselves now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    They experienced a genocide at Genosha at the hands of sentinels against whom the Avengers and the FF never did anything meaningful against, and then a former Avenger, Wanda Maximoff, deprived most mutants of their powers as a direct result of chicanery and gaslighting (making her forget her children) done to her which the Avengers had knowledge of.
    I remember Reed Richards arguing in the congress against the mutant registration. Which honestly was one of the things that ticked me off the most about his turn in Civil War.... if any of them should have been a Skrull it was Reed. VASTLY out of character.
    Last edited by phantom1592; 07-09-2020 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #20
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    The metaphor of the X-Men is constantly...evolving. Hickman's run addresses issues, at a metaphorical level, that are germane to the 2010s. They are supposed to be the 'Uncanny X-Men', i.e. challenging the reader's sense of normal.
    I thought they were supposed to be "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them." It seems in more recent years it's been "Sworn to protective other mutants no matter how horrible they are and to hell with everybody else."

    But that's the point of the X-Men, it's the one comic where you have weird and strange characters who are outsiders whose viewpoint the reader is supposed to readily accept, thereby challenging the reader's sense of normal in the process.
    Nah. The idea they used to preach was that people are people, regardless or race, religion, skin color, sexuality, or what have you. The fact that weird things were going on in their lives is just because they're in a comicbook. Captain America and Spider-man have weird things going on in their lives at any given moment too. That doesn't mean it's supposed to challenge anybody's sense of normal.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I don't think anyone would call Krakoa a monolith. For one thing they all wear distinct and unique outfits, no single pattern uniforms in sight.
    There should be vary more divided opinions on policies, the structure of the government and who leads the country - the Quiet Council includes people like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus and Mystique. None of them were voted in, it's a military junta.

    They announced pharmaceutical drugs that can cure major diseases and which are valued and demanded by humans. All they are asking for is something in return. Mutant growth and power will benefit the planet as a whole.
    Except they're not doing that, it's a small step in their plan to control humanity from within - Magneto confirmed this himself when at the summit. As well as the fact, Krakoa has a black market which uses cartels to distribute their drugs. The latter has connotations of Reagan's War on Drugs.

    The metaphor of the X-Men is constantly...evolving. Hickman's run addresses issues, at a metaphorical level, that are germane to the 2010s. They are supposed to be the 'Uncanny X-Men', i.e. challenging the reader's sense of normal. That is why Hickman's run leans so heavily into the weird and strange. John Byrne who was a collaborator with Claremont in the landmark X-Men run of the 70s once made a complaint about his partner that was actually insightful and even complimentary, unknown to him. Byrne said that Claremont gradually made the X-Men more and more extreme with no normal center in the story...it was supposed to be Jean then she became Phoenix, then Scott but he had Space-Pirate Dad and hidden brothers...and eventually no one was normal. But that's the point of the X-Men, it's the one comic where you have weird and strange characters who are outsiders whose viewpoint the reader is supposed to readily accept, thereby challenging the reader's sense of normal in the process.
    But that's not why people are upset about Krakoa, if that was what they were doing everyone would be fine with it.

    The sense of uncanniness of the X-Men is strengthened when you as a reader are directly in their shoes without civilian supporting characters serving as conduit. And that uncanniness is still revolutionary and radical as is apparent in the same way a lot of commenters here are disturbed by it.
    The X-books don't focus on civilians they focus on the elite. People are disturbed by the methods Krakoa partakes and who they let into their groups, like every mutant super-villain they've ever fought. It's not revolutionary in the sense of the X-men teams in the past, Krakoa's revolutionary like the Brotherhood of Mutants. Krakoa's more isolationist and segregationist then Magneto's Genosha ever was, at least they allowed humans in their government and had non-mutant immigration.

    And in any case, readers have found plenty to relate in Hickman. Like Marlon James, a Jamaican writer, connected it to the Black Lives Matter event,
    Except there are far too many variables to compare Krakoa to BLM. BLM don't have leadership with death counts higher than most countries, don't associate with known terrorists or call themselves after terrorist groups (the Marauders are named after a group who tried to commit genocide on mutants) they don't work with criminal organisations and they respect democracy.

    Edit: All these things should have a wider impact on the Marvel universe and how everyone set them. Including other mutants.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 07-09-2020 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    To which I opened the car door right on his face, possibly breaking his nose, judging by the blood on the window.
    A most unpleasant experience for you and your family, I am sure. It must be hard to share that here. I appreciate you for sharing that and I see your perspective.

    The way I see it, is something Kieron Gillen once said about the X-Men: "It's like the X-Men are a bad metaphor for any individual real life persecuted minority. However, they are very good as a device how it can feel to be marginalised, or even alienated in the widest sense."
    (https://www.youdontreadcomics.com/ar...-kieron-gillen)

    The X-Men are meant to be this indeterminate evolving metaphor, never entirely conforming to one particular allegory for persecution or a realistic look at how that happens or plays out. What happened in Krakoa is a specific reaction to happenings to the X-men and mutant community in-universe. It's about trying to examine what a mutant society created by mutants, for mutants, and of mutants, looks like.

    Ultimately if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. If this run isn't up to your speed, somewhere down the line when Hickman finishes his run, there will likely be an attempt to bring the X-men closer to the traditional version people are familiar with.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    The characters don't know they are mere characters in a book designed to make money.
    Deadpool does and he's a mutant.

    Marvel is the one who decided that 'mutant = minority.'
    Actually it was Chris Claremont.

    How do you NOT draw a parallel then to 'This school is for the minorities and the 'other' people get to live elsewhere.'
    Because the context is entirely different and the comparison is not remotely the same thing. Krakoa isn't segregationist simply because mutants want a place where they can live freely by their own laws and constitution, and their own social norms. As far as segregation goes, Attilan of the Inhumans has it beat.

    When Thor dropped Asgard in the middle of North America and said this is ours and no one who isn't like us can go in.... then yeah! Pretty much. Wakanda has always been about isolationist. But most of these 'not humans' have their own planets and dimensions and it really isn't comparable.
    Well mutants have Krakoa, who is also a mutant. It's not like mutants are depriving anyone or any place of their land or displaced any natives before moving in. That's not any different from Wakanda, from Asgard.

    If we are talking about segregation, Attilan with its caste system of Inhumans and Alpha Primitives and so on, is a much more clear and obvious example of that.

    But when you're talking about taking children and teens away from their parents because they're 'more like us then they are you'.... then yeah, that's a pretty dark concept.
    No mutant has been taken to Krakoa without their consent. In the case of young kids obviously parents need to consent but since some of these kids are orphans or victims of human trafficking saved by the X-Men, the issue is moot because no parents exist and it would not be safe to send them to the countries where they come from.

    It's not like they are or ever were a 'people'... until they decide to band together and decide that the guy who can understand languages is the same species as the guy who has wings and the guy with laser eyes and they should all be by themselves now.
    That's kind of the point. The X-Men of Krakoa define their identity not only by their X-gene or mutant powers but by the fact that they as a people have repeatedly faced attempted genocides, actual genocides, massacres and other forms of persecution by their oppressors.

    I remember Reed Richards arguing in the congress against the mutant registration. Which honestly was one of the things that ticked me off the most about his turn in Civil War.... if any of them should have been a Skrull it was Reed. VASTLY out of character.
    Civil War is a bad comic all along. On the whole, it was for the best the X-Men didn't get involved.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I thought they were supposed to be "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them."
    The X-Men of Krakoa will still save the world, mostly because they plan to live in it. There's nothing in the run that contradicts "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them". In Hickman's run, the X-Men and mutantkind are essential for the survival of natural organic matter itself with the X-gene being essentially organic evolution to counter the synthetic humanoid and genetically engineered and manufactured evolution of the singularity. It's essentially important that mutantkind thrive to save the environment and ecosystem from becoming some cold mechanical singularity.

    It seems in more recent years it's been "Sworn to protective other mutants no matter how horrible they are and to hell with everybody else."
    HOX-POX came out a year ago...so it's not "more recent years". It's still early days in the most exciting run of comics Marvel has put out in years and the most exciting run since Grant Morrison's New X-Men (and even then it's really first 2 1/2 years of his run before he went off rails).

    The idea they used to preach was that people are people, regardless or race, religion, skin color, sexuality, or what have you. The fact that weird things were going on in their lives is just because they're in a comicbook. Captain America and Spider-man have weird things going on in their lives at any given moment too. That doesn't mean it's supposed to challenge anybody's sense of normal.
    In the case of Spider-Man, he has a civilian identity as Peter Parker and a civilian and human supporting cast that provides an anchor point of normality for readers. His social life is also quite domestic and down to earth relatable in a lot of ways to people who navigate home and workplace duties and so on. Whereas the X-Men live on the edge, quite outside anything immediately relatable and direct. That they still became Marvel's biggest comic kind of proves how little value so-called relatability actually has in practise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There should be vary more divided opinions on policies, the structure of the government and who leads the country - the Quiet Council includes people like Apocalypse, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus and Mystique. None of them were voted in, it's a military junta.
    Nobody voted for Thor or the Aesir too, or for that matter the royal family of Wakanda. The Quiet Council is an interim government and not a permanent one. A bit like the Articles of Confederation and ad hoc governments that existed before the US Constitution and the actual government was formed and established.

    Except they're not doing that, it's a small step in their plan to control humanity from within - Magneto confirmed this himself when at the summit.
    Magneto is talking about economic hegemony. Krakoa gives humanity a product it wants, humanity pays Krakoa, Krakoa invests the money, becomes capitalistic superpower. That's all within the legal rules and fair play for world domination.

    Except there are far too many variables to compare Krakoa to BLM.
    Well BLM does argue and spotlight on the criminalization of a section of a population which is also what Krakoa is about. It's about militarized policy disproportionately targeting one group with legal cover. One entire group of superpowered figures in the planet -- mutants -- are targeted for extinction and genocide to the point of the creation and deployment of robots (Sentinels) dedicated completely to this function. The Krakoans did claim that they would exercise justice over mutant criminals and they punished Sabertooth for killing humans.

    And again as for welcoming criminals to Krakoa...the Avengers roster is filled with ex-criminals and former supervillains; their founder Hank Pym, leaving aside his storied personal life, created an AI -- Ultron -- that killed far more people than Magneto or Mystique has, or for that matter the entire Brotherhood in their history.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    The current state of the X-Men and the Marvel Universe:

    Exiting the room Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Exiting the room Malcolm X.

    Exiting the room "One nation, indivisible" or the hope thereof.

    Entering the room Marcus Garvey.

    Entering the room Governor George Wallace, Jr.

    Entering the room Doctors Kenneth and Mamie Clark -- to remind us when the time comes that our own innate, subconscious biases oftentimes color the wish fulfilment that we project onto fictional characters and universes.

    ***

    Yes, the Marvel Universe should be more integrated with mutants, humans and others coming together to address the challenges of their shared world. That Marvel has instead chosen the opposite path is disappointing, if not disturbing.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The X-Men of Krakoa will still save the world, mostly because they plan to live in it. There's nothing in the run that contradicts "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them". In Hickman's run, the X-Men and mutantkind are essential for the survival of natural organic matter itself with the X-gene being essentially organic evolution to counter the synthetic humanoid and genetically engineered and manufactured evolution of the singularity. It's essentially important that mutantkind thrive to save the environment and ecosystem from becoming some cold mechanical singularity.
    By cutting off all connections to humanity and selling out their principles.


    In the case of Spider-Man, he has a civilian identity as Peter Parker and a civilian and human supporting cast that provides an anchor point of normality for readers. His social life is also quite domestic and down to earth relatable in a lot of ways to people who navigate home and workplace duties and so on. Whereas the X-Men live on the edge, quite outside anything immediately relatable and direct. That they still became Marvel's biggest comic kind of proves how little value so-called relatability actually has in practise.
    The X-men are hardly unrelateable, for the majority of their appearances they lived in a mansion like the Avengers provided by their founder. They've had human girlfriends and boyfriends, they play baseball games, they squabble like families. Part of how they became the biggest comic was that they had the best writers and artists, compare their comics in the 90's to the Avengers. The Avengers don't have half the quality put into them, titles who are less of a priority get less creative attention.

    Nobody voted for Thor or the Aesir too, or for that matter the royal family of Wakanda. The Quiet Council is an interim government and not a permanent one. A bit like the Articles of Confederation and ad hoc governments that existed before the US Constitution and the actual government was formed and established.
    Asgard is terrible for doing that, as well. How Wakanda transitions its governments is far more democratic, though wrong for similar reasons, than Krakoa. The people who can rule the government aren't solely there due to their royal standing they must fight for the title, even this low standard of changing leaders is alien to Krakoa. These nations were also centuries old, Krakoa was made very recently and many of its population are from America and the UK. Those governments made sure the transition was a high priority, Krakoa's Quiet Council are more interested in doing everything except create its own democracy. By Xavier himself, no less.



    Magneto is talking about economic hegemony. Krakoa gives humanity a product it wants, humanity pays Krakoa, Krakoa invests the money, becomes capitalistic superpower. That's all within the legal rules and fair play for world domination.
    Magneto wanted more than that, he wanted to use that as leverage to control their governments and freeze their political opponents out of the process. Why are the X-men want world domination? They're about equality.



    Well BLM does argue and spotlight on the criminalization of a section of a population which is also what Krakoa is about. It's about militarized policy disproportionately targeting one group with legal cover. One entire group of superpowered figures in the planet -- mutants -- are targeted for extinction and genocide to the point of the creation and deployment of robots (Sentinels) dedicated completely to this function. The Krakoans did claim that they would exercise justice over mutant criminals
    If that was all Krakoa did everyone wouldn't have any complaints, it's when they stop doing tier mandate which is when trouble happens. As well the fact they're aiding various mutants who have committed as many crimes against mutants as those bigoted humans did, they're entrenched to the highest seats in government and are the face of the government in global disputes, like Magneto and Apocalypse. They haven't executed any justice to the mutants who had killed other mutants, they gave them all a pardon and have more freedom than any non-human if they visited Krakoa. There is no "rehabilitation", but they will put them on a not! Suicide Squad commanded by Sinister.


    and they punished Sabertooth for killing humans.
    They were responsible for unleashing him on humanity in the first place.

    And again as for welcoming criminals to Krakoa...the Avengers roster is filled with ex-criminals and former supervillains; their founder Hank Pym, leaving aside his storied personal life, created an AI -- Ultron -- that killed far more people than Magneto or Mystique has, or for that matter the entire Brotherhood in their history.
    Hank didn't intend Ultron to be what he is, and he was its first victim. He was put on trial for his domestic abuse and thrown out, Xavier overlooked when Apocalypse did that to his own team mates in Excalibur. Ultron ins't an Avenger, he's their biggest enemy, and Krakoa is more than the Brotherhood it's every single mutant super-villain and Sinister himself. Many of which have committed genocides on mutants and human civilisations. Apocalypse did that for centuries to various nations, when they grew prosperous he came in and destroyed them. He also did this to other species, like the Eternals. And the Brotherhood/Acolytes have a large bodycount of their own. The numerous super-villains in the Avengers were reformed, and never operated on the scale of the mutant super-villains like Apocalypse. In the Initaive when they did have some super-villains, like Taskmaster, he was feared and put in his palace when he got out of line. Baron Bliztkrieg was hated by everyone and they wanted to him gone ASAP, but they were forced to have him around.

    Many of the goings on in Krkaoa are kept from prying eyes but there's more than enough for Marvel to have characters of all stripes be horrified by the implications and try to contact their former friends and allies. The Krakoa summit should be national news.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 07-09-2020 at 11:09 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The way I see it, if mutants had had more of a presence outside the X-related books, then other superheroes would have had to seriously address the ongoing issue of anti-mutant sentiment and policies among the people they protected and the government/authorities with which they cooperated, instead of shoving it into a corner and acting like they couldn't see what was being inflicted on mutants --- including mutants they knew, trusted, and respected as allies and fellow heroes --- by many of those same people and institutions. To me, that the Avengers and the Fantastic Four didn't raise a voice to speak or a finger to act about things like the Mutant Registration Act, but were ready to tear into each other over a Registration Act that expanded its reach to anyone and everyone with powers, mutant or not, says --- or at least implies --- a lot of unpleasant things about how they really look at and think about mutants. In fact, the last X-Men run before Jonathan Hickman's had mutants being threatened with state-sponsored medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that would negate the X-gene from ever expressing itself, which went into wide public distribution almost as soon as the X-Men were presumed dead and gone, and that was when they weren't just being outright hunted down and killed or experimented upon, and did anyone else stand up against that? Sadly, no, so as unsettling as Krakoa can be, it wouldn't have come to be seen as necessary if not for the rest of the world essentially abandoning mutants to genocidal extermination.

    If mutants were treated by Marvel at large as a full part of the Marvel Universe, we could have seen nonmutant superheroes forced to seriously reckon with anti-mutant sentiments and policies among the ordinary people they protected, or the law enforcement or other government agencies they assisted, and whether or not they were willing to stand up for their fellow heroes that were also mutants. Could have made for some very good storytelling, especially with the increased awareness now of things like unconscious or implicit bias and how that might've colored some of those superheroes' reactions or attitudes concerning the mutant plight. Furthermore, with growing awareness of systematic and institutionalized bigotry and how it deliberately distorts perspectives in order to make some people's suffering seem justified, deserved, or even necessary, if not simply inconsequential or irrelevant compared to others, that could also play a role in nonmutant superheroes reevaluating their relationships with agencies and institutions that have proven complicit in mutants' suffering and whether or not it would be worth it to continue those relationships. That would also be rife with potential for great storytelling, as well as good topical commentary on the possibility (or lack thereof, for the more cynical or radical) of those institutions that have historically repressed and abused those with less power in society being reformed into something that doesn't abuse or repress vulnerable people.
    I put that on the X-Office for their decision to push it to the 'all humanity is against mutants' mentality. Combined with a 'all mutants are ours and you can't use them' attitude as well.

    I do want to see mutants outside the X-Books who have families who love and accept them. Communities that embrace them as individuals.

    For all the doom an gloom there have been mutants in the MU who are not being constantly beat down by that.

    Justice/Vance Astrovik is one of them. That's why I mentioned him first off. Yes...I know about his abusive father...but that was not so much of Vance being a mutant...but being different...and the cycle of abuse in families.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-10-2020 at 05:20 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I put that on the X-Office for their decision to push it to the 'all humanity is against mutants' mentality. Combined with a 'all mutants are ours and you can't use them' attitude as well.

    I do want to see mutants outside the X-Books who have families who love and accept them. Communities that embrace them as individuals.
    Have you read Excalibur, Betsy Braddock is close to her human family members there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Part of how they became the biggest comic was that they had the best writers and artists, compare their comics in the 90's to the Avengers. The Avengers don't have half the quality put into them, titles who are less of a priority get less creative attention.
    The Avengers in the 80s had Roger Stern who is one of Marvel's best writers, and later in the 90s they had Kurt Busiek. Chris Claremont took everyone by surprise when he began his epic 17 year on the X-Men in terms of how a Marvel-intern and nobody became such a big deal and how that transferred to a low-selling title.

    These nations were also centuries old, Krakoa was made very recently and many of its population are from America and the UK. Those governments made sure the transition was a high priority, Krakoa's Quiet Council are more interested in doing everything except create its own democracy. By Xavier himself, no less.
    *checks notes on history of UK and USA transition to democracy* Let's see slave-based economy for several centuries, restriction of votes to a tiny section of the population, just near 100 years of giving women to vote, owning vast colonies that were run like dictatorships with subject populations denied franchise, segregation, Electoral College
    *turns pages* Let's see transition to government changes was achieved via multiple acts of civil strife and violence


    Yeah, I don't think anyone can look at the history of England and America and claim that their transition to democracy was peaceful or done without violence. And in the case of America, certainly after 2016, no one can say it's entirely complete either.

    And anyway, the Quiet Council is still in the middle of preparing its government. It's not yet a democracy, but it's not yet a dictatorship either. So far it's more egalitarian than Asgard and Attilan, and since the FF and Avengers never raised a word about those failed states, they aren't on any ground to preach against Krakoa.

    Magneto wanted more than that, he wanted to use that as leverage to control their governments and freeze their political opponents out of the process.
    Look up something called Neoliberalism and the way capitalism has frozen out all alternatives to it since the Cold War. That's kind of what Magneto is talking about. In the way that Western Democracies and Capitalism has made it impossible for real alternative systems or distributive systems to work in any nation in any part of the world, Magneto and Krakoa want to use that to make it so that mutants have a future by beating them at their game. As Denzel Washington says in INSIDE MAN, "I'm getting paid".

    They haven't executed any justice to the mutants who had killed other mutants, they gave them all a pardon and have more freedom than any non-human if they visited Krakoa.
    They have resurrection protocols now. So any mutant killed by any other mutant will be revived...

    Hank didn't intend Ultron to be what he is, and he was its first victim.
    Hank is still alive, countless other victims of Ultron are dead. It's hard to equate Hank with that. And again from the perspective of the wider-Marvel Universe, the US Government themselves repeatedly give second chances to multiple criminals...such as Norman Osborn, a proven murderer, becoming the Head of SHIELD essentially, and even after repeated acts of crime, sabotage, and treason, he's still landing on his feet working at Ravencroft legally. Likewise, Wilson Fisk is Mayor of the major city in the Marvel Universe.

  13. #28
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    I have a lot of difficulty believing Ultron has killed more people than Magneto and Mystique. Especially given how long the latter has lived.

    The X-Men are more like an elite with a persecution complex. We're talking about a series that primarily focuses on human-looking characters (usually white ones) that live in a huge mansion and now their own country which provided them with everything they need including how to cheat death. Any villain the Avengers have pardonned is a choir boy compared to Apocalypse, Emma Frost, Mystique, Magneto and Sinister (whom let me remind you is a Nazi who harvested the DNA of a Native American mutant so he could pass as a mutant). Doom Patrol is what the X-Men have claimed to be.

    As to the question of the OP, I think there is more of an argument to be in their own universe these days.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I have a lot of difficulty believing Ultron has killed more people than Magneto and Mystique. Especially given how long the latter has lived.
    Ultron committed genocide by killing the entire nation of Slorenia. That alone, leaving aside is many other acts of spree killing, is higher than Magneto and Mystique. Most of their actions were localized small-scale terrorist attacks and assassinations after all.

    The X-Men are more like an elite with a persecution complex.
    Persecution doesn't stop being real, or become a complex, just because some people of a minority enter the elite. Take the attack on Tulsa in 1921, you know "black wall street". Or for that matter the persecution of Jews in Europe, quite a few of whom did manage to enter the middle-classes and above, but that didn't protect them any better.

    Again in the Marvel Universe, you have mutant killing robots called Sentinels created and sponsored by the government to kill an entire section of the population without due process sight unseen, and that includes children.

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    I think the need to maintain or revert to status quo for our merry mutants prohibits them from being as integrated as they used to be. Like a previous poster pointed out, having them regularly interact with other heroes would eventually require those heroes to take some kind of stance on how mutants have been treated.

    As far as Hickman's run goes, I'm seeing it get a lot of flack and I don't really get why. Sure, everyone is acting out of sorts, but isn't that the point? We've seen the future outcome of the story, and we know their current culture/society is gonna blow up in their face. We're just waiting to see what the catalyst is.

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