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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers in the 80s had Roger Stern who is one of Marvel's best writers, and later in the 90s they had Kurt Busiek. Chris Claremont took everyone by surprise when he began his epic 17 year on the X-Men in terms of how a Marvel-intern and nobody became such a big deal and how that transferred to a low-selling title.
    The Avengers had their ups and downs and Busiek was great but the title/s haven't had as big a push as the X-men did. It wasn't until Bendis that Marvel really pushed it to huge heights that made them the premiere super-hero team and the current Avengers aren't anywhere near X-men.

    *checks notes on history of UK and USA transition to democracy* Let's see slave-based economy for several centuries, restriction of votes to a tiny section of the population, just near 100 years of giving women to vote, owning vast colonies that were run like dictatorships with subject populations denied franchise, segregation, Electoral College
    *turns pages* Let's see transition to government changes was achieved via multiple acts of civil strife and violence
    Krakao's big on segregation, immigration is non-existent, the island itself hates anything not-human being on it, they don't have an education system, they don't have a modern military or airforce, they don't have elections and openly threaten other nations in global summits with beings known for wiping out nations, and have war criminals which have killed untold numbers of people at their highest levels. They're also founded in 2020, not 220 AD. They would have a large population of second class citizens on the island except as I said above immigration is nonexistent. And have moved onto conquering "nations" like Avalon by installing Mad King Jaime Braddock as Apocalypse's personal puppet. Civil strife and violence occurred in other countries, that's why they fled to Krakao - they are the government and the majority there. They';re not ended in any of this, everybody's going along with Xavier's government with the barest of resistance despite the fact the Quiet Council barely have any laws or a constitution but they prioritised allowing The Crucible - a controversial act where former mutants "fight" Apocalypse in ritual sacrifice to "earn" the right for Apocalypse to kill them so they can resurrected with powers, which is also heavily influenced by jingoism.

    And it's not only about those countries, it's the mutants who migrated from them. There should be a large portion ok with something resembling democracy but they're eerily silent on this object. Even if a large portion agrees with the current Quiet Council there should be far more variance in opinions on how it governs, its structure, the individuals and its policies.

    Yeah, I don't think anyone can look at the history of England and America and claim that their transition to democracy was peaceful or done without violence. And in the case of America, certainly after 2016, no one can say it's entirely complete either.
    Do you expect Krakoa is going to have to do that to get democracy? They don't have those countries baggage.

    And anyway, the Quiet Council is still in the middle of preparing its government. It's not yet a democracy, but it's not yet a dictatorship either. So far it's more egalitarian than Asgard and Attilan, and since the FF and Avengers never raised a word about those failed states, they aren't on any ground to preach against Krakoa.
    The problem with dictators is that the "transitionary government" becomes permanent, Krakoa is a dictatorship. There are no mechanisms to replace members of the Quiet Council. Attilan is like Krakoa's beta, they have an incredible amount in common with each other.



    Look up something called Neoliberalism and the way capitalism has frozen out all alternatives to it since the Cold War. That's kind of what Magneto is talking about. In the way that Western Democracies and Capitalism has made it impossible for real alternative systems or distributive systems to work in any nation in any part of the world, Magneto and Krakoa want to use that to make it so that mutants have a future by beating them at their game. As Denzel Washington says in INSIDE MAN, "I'm getting paid".
    They need to find ways to do that without becoming the next super-villains, conquering the world is not what the X-men are about but it is what Magneto is about. You're right that capitalism is far from innocent except not every bad decision in the Cold War the Communists did can be laid at their feet. So far all Krakoa's provided as an alternative is a dictatorship, no accountability, and villains being allowed to abuse the X-men with impunity - Apocalypse is doing this in Excalibur. X-Force, Krakoa's CIA, is a disaster. They even have their own Reagan-esque War on Drugs going on on the side. Sinister has his own Suicide Squad for any "undesirable" mutants. Magneto is allowed to indoctrinate children into his ideology by making him a role model, while the X-men watch without complaints and Exodus makes Scarlet Witch their "Boogey man." Krakoa offers many great things in their culture, however, it's marred by their imperfections which go to its foundations. It's corrupt, abusive, lawless, and riddled with super-villains.

    If Krkaoa has been a nation in the classic X-men period and they weren't in it they'd be fighting it like Genosha. Many of these things should be getting unwanted attention from SHIELD, and various super-heroes and other mutants in Marvel. It's a matter of when, not if, we get an X-men vs Avengers event from their activities. They've crossed too many lines.


    They have resurrection protocols now. So any mutant killed by any other mutant will be revived...
    That's not justice. Those villains aren't being punished or being put on trial for their crimes, instead they're being promoted to the highest office. This "leniency" has cost lives, human with Sabretooth and mutant with Shaw murdering Kitty Pryde. Both the X-men should have known was coming but they did nothing to stop it. Emma valiantly tried to tell Xavier not to bring Shaw back but he overruled her. The past didn't stop being the past in Krakoa.

    Hank is still alive, countless other victims of Ultron are dead. It's hard to equate Hank with that. And again from the perspective of the wider-Marvel Universe, the US Government themselves repeatedly give second chances to multiple criminals...such as Norman Osborn, a proven murderer, becoming the Head of SHIELD essentially, and even after repeated acts of crime, sabotage, and treason, he's still landing on his feet working at Ravencroft legally. Likewise, Wilson Fisk is Mayor of the major city in the Marvel Universe.
    People don't have to be dead to be victims, Hank turned Ultron on and it erased his memories so it could prepare to take over the world without anyone knowing, then it spent years trying to assault, manipulate, abduct, torture and kill him. And anyone he knew. That's like blaming Michael Dyson for building Skynet in Terminator 2. Governments are frowned by everyone when they do that, and the X-men went onto have an alliance with him during Dark Reign and HYDRA when they conquered America. Super-heroes like Captain America and Daredevil are fighting them as we speak, while Selene is working with him in the Power Elite and Krakoa does nothing. These acts don't become "good" because Krakao does it.

    Ultron committed genocide by killing the entire nation of Slorenia. That alone, leaving aside is many other acts of spree killing, is higher than Magneto and Mystique. Most of their actions were localized small-scale terrorist attacks and assassinations after all.
    Speaking of Slovenia the X-men were entirely absent from that, and I can't recall them ever commenting on the incident. Magneto's been involved in multiple global scale terrorist attacks like in "Fatal Attractions" and "Magneto War." Mystique created the Days of Future Past future when she assassinated Senator Kelly.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    People don't have to be dead to be victims, Hank turned Ultron on and it erased his memories so it could prepare to take over the world without anyone knowing, then it spent years trying to assault, manipulate, abduct, torture and kill him. And anyone he knew. That's like blaming Michael Dyson for building Skynet in Terminator 2.
    Not really. Hank created Ultron as a false villain he could defeat to make himself look more useful to the Avengers. Dyson's motives weren't anywhere near as careless.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The Avengers had their ups and downs and Busiek was great but the title/s haven't had as big a push as the X-men did. It wasn't until Bendis that Marvel really pushed it to huge heights that made them the premiere super-hero team and the current Avengers aren't anywhere near X-men.
    The fact is that what made titles like X-Men and others great wasn't necessarily because the writers with the best reputation and credentials suddenly made it big. It happened because young up-and-comers were given a chance and free reign to go wild and try ideas. Putting top tier talent behind a title isn't an instant guarantee for the title's success. Chris Claremont was a nobody when he started work on the X-Men. The Avengers in the 70s had Roy Thomas, in the 80s they had Stern, in-between they had Jim Shooter, EIC himself. After you had Marc Gruenwald.

    Krakao's big on segregation, immigration is non-existent,
    The island literally accepts mutants from across the world, giving them instant citizenship and right-of-return.

    ...the island itself hates anything not-human being on it,
    The island used to hate anything not-itself on it. Give it time.

    they don't have an education system,
    There's something called Akademos Habitat there to educate kids. And they have their own internet.

    they don't have a modern military or airforce,
    Given your negative view of them, isn't that a good thing?

    They would have a large population of second class citizens on the island except as I said above immigration is nonexistent. And have moved onto conquering "nations" like Avalon by installing Mad King Jaime Braddock as Apocalypse's personal puppet.
    Avalon invaded and attacked first.

    Civil strife and violence occurred in other countries, that's why they fled to Krakao - they are the government and the majority there. They';re not ended in any of this, everybody's going along with Xavier's government with the barest of resistance despite the fact the Quiet Council barely have any laws or a constitution but they prioritised allowing The Crucible - a controversial act where former mutants "fight" Apocalypse in ritual sacrifice to "earn" the right for Apocalypse to kill them so they can resurrected with powers, which is also heavily influenced by jingoism.
    And the Crucible wasn't Xavier's idea, it was something Apocalypse managed to get passed by votes and it's primarily about those depowered by "the pretender Wanda Maximoff" working past trauma, humiliation, and so on, in order to choose their mutant identity again in avery positive light.

    Do you expect Krakoa is going to have to do that to get democracy?
    Democracy doesn't grow on trees. No country on this planet in its history has ever magically started in its most ideal form from Day 1. The X-Men are trying to form a nation and make it work, creating a society by mutants, for mutants, of mutants. Arbitrarily attacking it without any consideration and double standards isn't fair or rational. After all, if any government today decides to model itself on America at the time of the Revolution they would be utterly in violation of several human rights.

    The problem with dictators is that the "transitionary government" becomes permanent,
    In the short term sure, but not in the long-term. France for instance is a democracy now, but it took a long while to get there from Robespierre to Napoleon, and then two Kings after Bonaparte, and then Bonaparte's lame nephew...and then later during World War II you had another dictatorship under Petain. It's only since 1944 that French women got the vote you know. You look at Germany, it's also got a very recent history as a democracy. South Korea is a major democracy in Asia now, but it was a brutal right-wing dictatorship, not very different from the North, for much of the Cold War.

    Krakoa is a dictatorship. There are no mechanisms to replace members of the Quiet Council.
    There is...it's called the Five. You know mutant resurrection. Any member of the Council who dies will be brought back to life.

    Magneto is allowed to indoctrinate children into his ideology by making him a role model,
    Magneto hasn't really been a villain since the 90s. After the Xornetto retcon, Magneto was made into a friendly loof frenemy and then after House of M, he became a regular ally and joined the X-Men serving them in multiple capacities. So it's not like Magneto being a good guy is some new thing Hickman introduced.

    Krakoa offers many great things in their culture, however, it's marred by their imperfections which go to its foundations.
    In other words like any culture on this planet.

    If Krkaoa has been a nation in the classic X-men period and they weren't in it they'd be fighting it like Genosha. Many of these things should be getting unwanted attention from SHIELD, and various super-heroes and other mutants in Marvel.
    That's already there. It's called Orchis, you know the bad guys.

    It's a matter of when, not if, we get an X-men vs Avengers event from their activities. They've crossed too many lines.
    Yeah those Ultron-making, mutant depowering, sentinel-enabling proto-homo-novissima hypocrites are due for payback for sure.

    People don't have to be dead to be victims, Hank turned Ultron on and it erased his memories so it could prepare to take over the world without anyone knowing, then it spent years trying to assault, manipulate, abduct, torture and kill him.
    Did Hank ever bother to inform anyone about what he was working on the lab, did he ever stop to consider that a scientist with his immense psychological issues out to be subject to peer-review before launching on his latest scheme of tinkering? He's still responsible. And given Hank's own history of mental illness, it's not a surprise that he creates a robot with an oedipus complex.

    Speaking of Slovenia
    It's Slorenia, with an r. Slovenia is an actual real-world nation (the birthplace of the current First Lady in fact).

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    no, mutants need their own universe because the larger MU has given them 0 benefits, x-men books are self isolated because they have no need of other marvel characters, they have more than enouch concepts and characters on it's own, you lose absolutly nothing in cutting the x-men away from the rest of the MU.

    Mutants are an x-men concept and it should be handled by its dedicated writers, everytime non x-men writers have a dip at that they tend to use the x-men and mutants as punching bags or as props to promote whatever propriety is in dire need of sales.


    I want mutants interacting with other mutants that I and other x-men fans care about, not random avengers number 10930-8594843-94230=0=-1230=103=1 that I have zero interest in reading or even knowing about.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-10-2020 at 10:25 AM.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I am not talking about the X-Mutant, Krakoan sycophants.

    Characters like Justice and Ultra Girl who are not going to Krakoa and they verbalize it and speak against mutants going.

    Or new characters....say a teenage girl with super strength whose parents were killed by Apocalypse when he attacked NYC during Fall of The Mutants...she saw X-Factor saving people and considered them heroes...until Krakoa. She thinks any mutant who goes to the island is scum for siding the Apocalypse and when Cyclops comes to recruit her she basically tells him off.
    and then the purifiers kill her, the end, to the bottom of the ressurection list she goes.

    she's probably not very compassionate either way since aparently apocalypse is too bad but helping thousands of mutants witout any sort of goverment support, or even at extreme cases like the morlocks, basic living conditions is such a bad thing to seek out refugee in the one place that will protect you.
    Or just very naive, justice and ultra girl have achieved soooo much for mutants after all.
    If you want an easy way to have characters with powers just use the inhumans.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-10-2020 at 10:22 AM.

  6. #36
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    Xmen and mutants should be in their own seperate universe

  7. #37

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    Sure because Mutants are an easy storytelling shorthand.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    and then the purifiers kill her, the end, to the bottom of the resurrection list she goes.

    she's probably not very compassionate either way since apparently apocalypse is too bad but helping thousands of mutants without any sort of government support, or even at extreme cases like the morlocks, basic living conditions is such a bad thing to seek out refugee in the one place that will protect you.
    Or just very naive, justice and ultra girl have achieved soooo much for mutants after all.
    If you want an easy way to have characters with powers just use the inhumans.
    Well...sure...if the writer is a pathetic loser who can't come up with a compelling story about a mutant who is not a Krakoan fascist sycophant.

    Why would you be compassionate about people who side with a psychopath like Apocalypse...you may as well feel compassionate for the people who sided with Hitler or Stalin or Castro
    The morlocks made a choice to live the way they did
    Justice and Ultra Girl were never put in stories like that but I would like to see it....and see them still against Krakoa's nonsense of all mutants get a free pass for all the heinous crimes they committed.
    I am not looking for an easy way to have characters with powers...I want to see mutants who are part of larger 616 universe be an actual part of it and not a separate thing that has no interaction.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-10-2020 at 02:31 PM.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Well...sure...if the writer is a pathetic loser who can't come up with a compelling story about a mutant who is not a Krakoan fascist sycophant.
    A - Define Fascism
    B - Apply that logically to Krakoa

    I am not looking for an easy way to have characters with powers...I want to see mutants who are part of larger 616 universe be an actual part of it and not a separate thing that has no interaction.
    What you seem to want is for mutants to be what they were after House of M reduced and gutted them for scraps for the benefit of the Avengers. That's what you want, looks like.

    Maybe you would prefer if Marvel cancels X-Men titles altogether so the characters and stuff exist for the sole purpose of being used as props for writers to do with as they please.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A - Define Fascism
    B - Apply that logically to Krakoa



    What you seem to want is for mutants to be what they were after House of M reduced and gutted them for scraps for the benefit of the Avengers. That's what you want, looks like.

    Maybe you would prefer if Marvel cancels X-Men titles altogether so the characters and stuff exist for the sole purpose of being used as props for writers to do with as they please.
    I want mutants and their experience to be more than just what the X-Books say it is....and for there to be conflict in the mutant community on what is the best way forward...both as a species and as individuals.

    I don't want the X-Books cancelled...I just want them to be better written than the crap of the last several years.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I want mutants and their experience to be more than just what the X-Books say it is
    This honestly makes no sense to me at all. Should Spider-Man be more than what is there in ASM? Should there be more to Hulk than Immortal Hulk? More to Daredevil than Zdarsky's run?

    This makes no sense at all. The fact is that any Marvel property will be mainly concentrated in the main title. That's how it works. This standard you demand does not apply to any other title or character.

    ....and for there to be conflict in the mutant community on what is the best way forward...both as a species and as individuals.
    That's there in Hickman's run. That's what his entire run is all about, it's what it's leading to and what is there across all titles and issues.

    I don't want the X-Books cancelled...I just want them to be better written than the crap of the last several years.
    Hickman's run began in 2019, HoX/PoX has lasted for less than a year at this point (and missed months owing to the Pandemic). This is just the beginning.

    If the current X-Men run is not for you, it's not for you. Re-read older runs closer to your liking, and wait out for the end of Hickman's run and dive back in when it's more to your liking. I hated Spider-Man after OMD and only returned when Dan Slott stepped down. In that time, I re-read older titles and comics, became an all-around continuity expert and so on.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I think it's already happening with books like X-Men/Fantastic Four and Empyre tie-ins. I can see them being more involved in the larger MU as time goes on especially with the rights back.

    The problem has been that books outside of the X-line don't use mutants or the metaphor. Like the Fantastic Four should have faced Sentinels, Purifiers, and talked about mutantphobia years ago considering their son is a mutant. The Avengers should have had stories involving how their mutant members were viewed by the public.
    These kind of stories would have been interesting and would have benefited the MU as a whole.
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This honestly makes no sense to me at all. Should Spider-Man be more than what is there in ASM? Should there be more to Hulk than Immortal Hulk? More to Daredevil than Zdarsky's run?

    This makes no sense at all. The fact is that any Marvel property will be mainly concentrated in the main title. That's how it works. This standard you demand does not apply to any other title or character.
    Those are individuals...Spider-Man, Hulk and Daredevil are in their own books telling their own stories...but mutants are a group not a single individual. So tell the X-Men's stories in their books, tell Wolverine;s story in his book...but tell other mutants stories in other books.



    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's there in Hickman's run. That's what his entire run is all about, it's what it's leading to and what is there across all titles and issues.
    All I have seen since HoX/PoX is what is the best way forward for Krakoa...and that is for murders, psychopaths and terrorist who before this storyline started would have happily killed the good guys and innocents to get a free pass for their crimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hickman's run began in 2019, HoX/PoX has lasted for less than a year at this point (and missed months owing to the Pandemic). This is just the beginning.

    If the current X-Men run is not for you, it's not for you. Re-read older runs closer to your liking, and wait out for the end of Hickman's run and dive back in when it's more to your liking. I hated Spider-Man after OMD and only returned when Dan Slott stepped down. In that time, I re-read older titles and comics, became an all-around continuity expert and so on.
    I am talking well before Hickman came along...I have really been disappointed with the X-Books for maybe about a decade. It has degenerated to the doom and gloom of all humans are racist. It is just easier for the writers to tell that story than it is for them to tell a more nuanced and complicated story of human/mutant interaction. And don't get me started on the constant 'Age of...' storyline nonsense. What next....Age of Wolverine...a universe where every mutant has Logan's powers??

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I think it's already happening with books like X-Men/Fantastic Four and Empyre tie-ins. I can see them being more involved in the larger MU as time goes on especially with the rights back.

    The problem has been that books outside of the X-line don't use mutants or the metaphor. Like the Fantastic Four should have faced Sentinels, Purifiers, and talked about mutantphobia years ago considering their son is a mutant. The Avengers should have had stories involving how their mutant members were viewed by the public.
    These kind of stories would have been interesting and would have benefited the MU as a whole.
    The occasional cross over really doesn't touch on the 'world view'. They team up for a few issues then go back to their corners and continue business as usual.

    Your 2nd paragraph though is what I am talking about. I would love to see Captain America be questioned about it and speak out on mutants behalf. That they like everyone else should be judged on their own merits...not the actions of others who share a gene with them. Or the FF be attacked by Sentinels and after scrapping them sue the government for violating their child's civil rights.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-10-2020 at 03:22 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    To me, that the Avengers and the Fantastic Four didn't raise a voice to speak or a finger to act about things like the Mutant Registration Act, but were ready to tear into each other over a Registration Act that expanded its reach to anyone and everyone with powers, mutant or not, says --- or at least implies --- a lot of unpleasant things about how they really look at and think about mutants.
    I guess you missed where Reed Richards testified in front of Congress about the act.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    I guess you missed where Reed Richards testified in front of Congress about the act.
    If it is the issue I am thinking of...it think it was not about the Mutant Registration Act....but an earlier attempt at superhuman registration...and the quickly assembled a super power detector and said members of the congressional committee would qualify.

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