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  1. #46
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Couple points of clarity for those who maybe aren’t current on the Avengers.

    The Avengers DO NOT work for the government. They HAVE cut ties with any major institutions. They even moved to the North Pole to be very thorough in making that point!



    The wider MU HAS been trying to help the mutants, but that also depends on what books you’re reading. The issue with having different franchises with different editorial teams that are not being cohesive with one another is a managerial problem, not a character problem.



    To further make this point about cohesion issues? Right now, in the Cap book, Selene is working with the Lukins, one of whom has Red Skull inside of him (yes, again), the Chadwicks, Wilson Fisk, AIM, Crossbones, Sin and the Watchdogs. And boy has she killed plenty of humans, therein breaking Krakoan law. So, that’s a thing that is happening.

    Also, according to the CBR write-up for the new Venom event in December, King in Black, the Avengers and X-Men will be teaming up to fight Knull. Together. The first issue features Cap, Tony and Scott on the cover.



    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr...-december/amp/

  2. #47
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I think it's already happening with books like X-Men/Fantastic Four and Empyre tie-ins. I can see them being more involved in the larger MU as time goes on especially with the rights back.

    The problem has been that books outside of the X-line don't use mutants or the metaphor. Like the Fantastic Four should have faced Sentinels, Purifiers, and talked about mutantphobia years ago considering their son is a mutant. The Avengers should have had stories involving how their mutant members were viewed by the public.
    These kind of stories would have been interesting and would have benefited the MU as a whole.
    Agreed. Even Spider-Man had a story in one of his own solos in the 90s where he had a mutant classmate during his postgraduate studies and she was being harassed by the Friends of Humanity, which he (and Mary Jane) intervened against to defend her, both in and out of costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    I guess you missed where Reed Richards testified in front of Congress about the act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    If it is the issue I am thinking of...it think it was not about the Mutant Registration Act....but an earlier attempt at superhuman registration...and the quickly assembled a super power detector and said members of the congressional committee would qualify.
    Thanks. That one, I remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Couple points of clarity for those who maybe aren’t current on the Avengers.

    The Avengers DO NOT work for the government. They HAVE cut ties with any major institutions. They even moved to the North Pole to be very thorough in making that point!



    The wider MU HAS been trying to help the mutants, but that also depends on what books you’re reading. The issue with having different franchises with different editorial teams that are not being cohesive with one another is a managerial problem, not a character problem.



    To further make this point about cohesion issues? Right now, in the Cap book, Selene is working with the Lukins, one of whom has Red Skull inside of him (yes, again), the Chadwicks, Wilson Fisk, AIM, Crossbones, Sin and the Watchdogs. And boy has she killed plenty of humans, therein breaking Krakoan law. So, that’s a thing that is happening.

    Also, according to the CBR write-up for the new Venom event in December, King in Black, the Avengers and X-Men will be teaming up to fight Knull. Together. The first issue features Cap, Tony and Scott on the cover.



    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr...-december/amp/
    Excellent points, although I would say that while it's a good thing the Avengers have formally renounced associations or ties with the U.S. government (or any government, for that matter), it's still a problem to me that almost none of them have spoken out publicly about the mutant situation. I'm fully aware that Captain America has tried to help whenever he can, particularly with that anecdote about shutting down S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attempt at a concentration camp for mutants "in case," but my issue, again, is that he somehow can't bring himself to speak out more openly against persecution of mutants, as in-character, he would be all about fighting for the rights and lives of all oppressed people(s). Of course, I should blame it more on the writers/editorial wanting to maintain some semblance of separation or distinction between their characters/properties, even if it comes at the expense of characterization, because again, from all I've seen and read of Cap himself, he'd be (among) the first to jump on that proverbial grenade to defend those being unjustly targeted by authorities or plain bigots.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post

    Excellent points, although I would say that while it's a good thing the Avengers have formally renounced associations or ties with the U.S. government (or any government, for that matter), it's still a problem to me that almost none of them have spoken out publicly about the mutant situation. I'm fully aware that Captain America has tried to help whenever he can, particularly with that anecdote about shutting down S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attempt at a concentration camp for mutants "in case," but my issue, again, is that he somehow can't bring himself to speak out more openly against persecution of mutants, as in-character, he would be all about fighting for the rights and lives of all oppressed people(s). Of course, I should blame it more on the writers/editorial wanting to maintain some semblance of separation or distinction between their characters/properties, even if it comes at the expense of characterization, because again, from all I've seen and read of Cap himself, he'd be (among) the first to jump on that proverbial grenade to defend those being unjustly targeted by authorities or plain bigots.
    And that is exactly what it is. Cap standing up for mutant teammates outside of Avengers Mansion when a Friends of Humanity protest is going on would be in character....Thor as well...but maybe in a slightly different way. And the mutants don't have to be Beast or Wolverine but as I said above Justice and Ultra Girl are on the team in the future. Maybe there is a Sentinel attack on some random innocent mutant in NYC and the Avengers respond and this gets them drawn into the debate.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Agreed. Even Spider-Man had a story in one of his own solos in the 90s where he had a mutant classmate during his postgraduate studies and she was being harassed by the Friends of Humanity, which he (and Mary Jane) intervened against to defend her, both in and out of costume.





    Thanks. That one, I remember.



    Excellent points, although I would say that while it's a good thing the Avengers have formally renounced associations or ties with the U.S. government (or any government, for that matter), it's still a problem to me that almost none of them have spoken out publicly about the mutant situation. I'm fully aware that Captain America has tried to help whenever he can, particularly with that anecdote about shutting down S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attempt at a concentration camp for mutants "in case," but my issue, again, is that he somehow can't bring himself to speak out more openly against persecution of mutants, as in-character, he would be all about fighting for the rights and lives of all oppressed people(s). Of course, I should blame it more on the writers/editorial wanting to maintain some semblance of separation or distinction between their characters/properties, even if it comes at the expense of characterization, because again, from all I've seen and read of Cap himself, he'd be (among) the first to jump on that proverbial grenade to defend those being unjustly targeted by authorities or plain bigots.
    Well, to be fair Cap has been unjustly accused of murder and on the run from the law. Moreover the MU equivalent of Fox News has half the public turned against him, making him public enemy #1. So he’s in a position right now that if he publicly showed support of the mutants it would not help the them at all, and would make it worse for them, because America hates him just as much. So again it’s kind of a cohesion issue, with the Cap book not really jiving with what Hickman is doing. Just like the Selene situation.

    But yes, I agree it would be in-character for him to speak up and who knows maybe he will. We haven’t really seen the Avengers take on the Krakoa thing yet. Cap only recently got back from space with the whole Starbrand affair. It could be coming soon that they (the Avengers) address this. At least I hope they do because it’s a rather glaring plot-hole.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 07-10-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Well, to be fair Cap has been unjustly accused of murder and on the run from the law. Moreover the MU equivalent of Fox News has half the public turned against him, making him public enemy #1. So he’s in a position right now that if he publicly showed support of the mutants it would not help the them at all, and would make it worse for them, because America hates him just as much. So again it’s kind of a cohesion issue, with the Cap book not really jiving with what Hickman is doing. Just like the Selene situation.
    I for one...and I assume Huntsman Spider....are talking long term and not current ongoing story line.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    And don't get me started on the constant 'Age of...' storyline nonsense. What next....Age of Wolverine...a universe where every mutant has Logan's powers??
    You know that wouldn't be such a bad idea.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You know that wouldn't be such a bad idea.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I for one...and I assume Huntsman Spider....are talking long term and not current ongoing story line.
    Yes and I edited my response to say that it probably will be addressed on the Avengers side but just hasn’t, yet. Maybe it’s on purpose that they did it that way, too, if we want to give editorial the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps they were working up to the Avengers take on the X-Men but kept that card hidden from the rest of the deck for story reasons. It’s still on the table.

  9. #54
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I for one...and I assume Huntsman Spider....are talking long term and not current ongoing story line.
    You assume correctly. I was speaking more in the long-term. However, I do respect capandkirby's point about Cap being hated by (at least) half the public due to not just being framed for murder (of General Thunderbolt Ross), but also blamed for his HYDRA doppelganger's actions by The Fact Channel, which is basically in thrall to the Power Elite that has been scheming to exploit the fallout from Secret Empire for their own gain. That could very well compel a shift in how he addresses the mutant situation going forward, given how easily the public could be made to turn on him as well, and not for the first time, either, in light of what happened in the original Civil War.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The island literally accepts mutants from across the world, giving them instant citizenship and right-of-return.
    That's the problem, they're all mutants. Immigration is about everyone, not a select group.

    The island used to hate anything not-itself on it. Give it time.
    It'd move faster if the Krakoa government made a priority to convince it too, instead they're following its direction. Nobody's doing this.

    There's something called Akademos Habitat there to educate kids. And they have their own internet.
    Ok.

    Given your negative view of them, isn't that a good thing?
    I didn't say how I felt about them, and all countries need things like that for defence. Genosha was slaughtered without them.

    Avalon invaded and attacked first.
    Excalibur found a closed portal to Avalon and opened it from their end, they invaded. It was all a step in a scheme Apocalypse spent millennia devising that he put into action.



    And the Crucible wasn't Xavier's idea, it was something Apocalypse managed to get passed by votes and it's primarily about those depowered by "the pretender Wanda Maximoff" working past trauma, humiliation, and so on, in order to choose their mutant identity again in avery positive light.
    Xavier is effectively Krakoa's unofficial "president" and Apocalypse shouldn't be anywhere near putting bills through it. That's what Apocalypse wants people to think, it's a needless cultish ritual that they just approved because they're not interested in any other alternative. By doing this he insults, berates and humiliates them like a drill sergeant to define their identity about being a mutant and being loyal to Krakoa, and pressuring them socially that not having powers is being lesser and once they follow his script he kills them with a sword. In a grand arena.

    Democracy doesn't grow on trees. No country on this planet in its history has ever magically started in its most ideal form from Day 1. The X-Men are trying to form a nation and make it work, creating a society by mutants, for mutants, of mutants. Arbitrarily attacking it without any consideration and double standards isn't fair or rational. After all, if any government today decides to model itself on America at the time of the Revolution they would be utterly in violation of several human rights.
    This isn't answer my question. Democracy has to sort from somewhere and all we know is that Emma Frost is interested in it, everyone else has no opinion. Xavier said they'll do it later the asked but did nothing to move forward and I don't trust this Xavier. Forming a nation requires a government structure and the X-men stopped once they got the Quiet Council, they're no longer in the nation building stage. Krakoa deserves scrutiny for its terrible decisions, regardless of its good intentions. Good intentions don't stay good when cartels and super-villains who are global threats to everyone are deeply involved. And it is about double standards, Krkaoa is following Attilan and other human nations miserable examples to a tee. They can be inspired by the American system of democracy and update it, how America was formed has nothing to do with Krakoa in 2020.

    In the short term sure, but not in the long-term. France for instance is a democracy now, but it took a long while to get there from Robespierre to Napoleon, and then two Kings after Bonaparte, and then Bonaparte's lame nephew...and then later during World War II you had another dictatorship under Petain. It's only since 1944 that French women got the vote you know. You look at Germany, it's also got a very recent history as a democracy. South Korea is a major democracy in Asia now, but it was a brutal right-wing dictatorship, not very different from the North, for much of the Cold War.
    None of those countries began with large groups of people who were used to 21st century democracy. Krakoa is made now, not in ancient times. This does, however, imply that for Krakoa to have democracy there would have to be a civil war.

    There is...it's called the Five. You know mutant resurrection. Any member of the Council who dies will be brought back to life.
    They don't govern anything, the Quiet Council does. The Council are the courts, create laws and are ambassadors to the world. All the Five do is resurrect people.

    Magneto hasn't really been a villain since the 90s. After the Xornetto retcon, Magneto was made into a friendly loof frenemy and then after House of M, he became a regular ally and joined the X-Men serving them in multiple capacities. So it's not like Magneto being a good guy is some new thing Hickman introduced.
    Even if what you said was true (it's not) he still wouldn't be useful to a government as a head of state or ambassador. He's committed numerous large scale terrorist acts and is feared around the world for good reason. "Magneto War" was 1999, "Eve of Destruction" was 2001 and "Surviving the Experience" was 2018 and the Magneto series where he became mutant Punisher was 2014. Magneto has occasionally shifted alliances and helped the X-men but he has too much international baggage to be in a government. The X-men are far too lenient on him, when he's murdered and tortured them again and again. He's not a "good guy." And when he does show up in Krakoa whenever he meets humans he intimidates and talks down to them as if he were a god and they were ants.

    In other words like any culture on this planet.
    And mutant kind learnt nothing about how to correct this. They didn't bother trying.

    That's already there. It's called Orchis, you know the bad guys.
    Orchis has nothing to do with what I said.

    Yeah those Ultron-making, mutant depowering, sentinel-enabling proto-homo-novissima hypocrites are due for payback for sure.
    Shaw's created Sentinels with the American government, Sinister has depowered mutants worldwide, Selene can't go five minutes without trying to murder someone or commit genocide to power her spells. The X-men used to be allies with the Avengers and be super-heroes, now they're shacking up with their worst super-villains and letting Sabretooth loose on humanity when it suits their agenda.

    Did Hank ever bother to inform anyone about what he was working on the lab, did he ever stop to consider that a scientist with his immense psychological issues out to be subject to peer-review before launching on his latest scheme of tinkering? He's still responsible. And given Hank's own history of mental illness, it's not a surprise that he creates a robot with an oedipus complex.
    This is victim blaming. Hank accidentally created a monster and has mental illnesses, the X-men are currently working with people who do that willingly and will do it again to them in a heartbeat. The Avengers have higher standards for their own members serving than Krakoa does.

    It's Slorenia, with an r. Slovenia is an actual real-world nation (the birthplace of the current First Lady in fact).
    Didn't answer my question.

  11. #56
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    They should, but ever since they became successful in the early 90's because of the cartoon, Marvel has separated them from the MU to keep a good thing going, and they've never integrated ever since.

    I think people feel like the X-Men don't need the MU to be good or relevant. That's why they have a separate forum on this website.

  12. #57
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    It is true that the X-Men are unique in the sense they don't need the rest of the MU to be good or relevant (the same goes for Spider-Man). At the same time, being able to stand on your own and being better integrated in the MU aren't mutually exclusive. Superman and Batman are just as able to stand on their own as the X-Men, but they are also very integrated into the larger DCU.

    There are also consequences to not integrating the X-Men better into the MU. One of them (as others pointed out) is that it makes other characters come off like they don't care about mutant discrimination. Another issue is that it makes the X-Men come off like they only care about mutant problems.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 07-10-2020 at 08:44 PM.

  13. #58
    All-New Member Celtic1967's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Not really. Hank created Ultron as a false villain he could defeat to make himself look more useful to the Avengers. Dyson's motives weren't anywhere near as careless.
    Incorrect, you're confusing Ultron with the robot Pym created during his Avengers court martial trial.
    Wanna make somethin' of it?

  14. #59
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It is true that the X-Men are unique in the sense they don't need the rest of the MU to be good or relevant (the same goes for Spider-Man). At the same time, being able to stand on your own and being better integrated in the MU aren't mutually exclusive. Superman and Batman are just as able to stand on their own as the X-Men, but they are also very integrated into the larger DCU.

    There are also consequences to not integrating the X-Men better into the MU. One of them (as others pointed out) is that it makes other characters come off like they don't care about the mutant discrimination. Another issue is that it makes the X-Men come off like they only care about mutant problems.
    Exactly. That negligence makes the nonmutant heroes look like passive bigots at best, and the mutant heroes look like self-interested jerks. Not a good look for either, to be honest.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Exactly. That negligence makes the nonmutant heroes look like passive bigots at best, and the mutant heroes look like self-interested jerks. Not a good look for either, to be honest.
    If anything, it also hurts the X-Men as an allegory for the Civil Rights Movement. MLK went on to fight against classism and other forms of inequality after LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act. One of his most famous quotes is "Injustice everywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

    Integrating the X-Men better into the MU would therefore feel natural.

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