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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Exactly. That negligence makes the nonmutant heroes look like passive bigots at best, and the mutant heroes look like self-interested jerks. Not a good look for either, to be honest.
    I chalk that alongside Reed Richards, T'Challa and Iron Man being a-holes who don't put their inventions on the market, or Thor and Asgardians not curing hunger by ending drought for good.

    It's not really an issue that is meant to be thought of too deeply. Ultimately the Shared Universe was never concieved to tell a story by itself. It was always a patchwork canvas meant to sell all Marvel titles and trick people into reading comics they don't care for. It's a carny trick.

    At its core, the story of the X-men and mutants are best read when self-contained using the rest of the MU as a springboard for their stories, and vice-versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    If anything, it also hurts the X-Men as an allegory for the Civil Rights Movement. MLK went on to fight against classism and other forms of inequality after LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act. One of his most famous quotes is "Injustice everywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

    Integrating the X-Men better into the MU would therefore feel natural.
    Well Magneto back in the Octopusheim Saga and in God Love Man Kills made it clear that his long term goal after mutant uplfiftment was to transform the world and end poverty and hunger.

    And Emma Frost in Marauders forced a bunch of bigots to not only never harm mutants, but also not to harm LGBTQ people as well.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-10-2020 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Magneto back in the Octopusheim Saga and in God Love Man Kills made it clear that his long term goal after mutant uplfiftment was to transform the world and end poverty and hunger.

    And Emma Frost in Marauders forced a bunch of bigots to not only never harm mutants, but also not to harm LGBTQ people as well.
    All good examples but there is still a lack of consistency.

    Probably the best example of integrating the X-Men better is Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run where Cyclops literally decides to expand the X-Men to non-mutant issues.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    If anything, it also hurts the X-Men as an allegory for the Civil Rights Movement. MLK went on to fight against classism and other forms of inequality after LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act. One of his most famous quotes is "Injustice everywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

    Integrating the X-Men better into the MU would therefore feel natural.
    I am talking more that just integrating the X-Men....but mutants in general. Tell mutant stories of characters besides X-Men. Have them on teams or just be represented as common folk.

    For example...a barista at the neighborhood coffee shop that Jessica Drew goes to is a mutant and the co-workers are cool to her.

    Or a girl on Yancy St 4 blocks down from the FF's house is a mutant and her neighbors don't have a problem with her and when the FoH show up they get run off by the Yancy St folks.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I am talking more that just integrating the X-Men....but mutants in general. Tell mutant stories of characters besides X-Men. Have them on teams or just be represented as common folk.

    For example...a barista at the neighborhood coffee shop that Jessica Drew goes to is a mutant and the co-workers are cool to her.

    Or a girl on Yancy St 4 blocks down from the FF's house is a mutant and her neighbors don't have a problem with her and when the FoH show up they get run off by the Yancy St folks.
    I agree there should be more mutants that are not associated with the X-Men, but I think Marvel hesitates to show ordinary mutants that aren't heroes to not create the impression that too many people in the MU have powers.

    For example, Peter Parker is less unique if a huge percentage of his classmates are mutants. Or the Avengers are more morally dubious if a huge chunk of the people they protect have powers and don't require protection.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Or a girl on Yancy St 4 blocks down from the FF's house is a mutant and her neighbors don't have a problem with her and when the FoH show up they get run off by the Yancy St folks.
    Considering how Susan Storm is a Grade-A Karen who acts like she owns Yancy Street, I am not sure if that's the best flex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    All good examples but there is still a lack of consistency.

    Probably the best example of integrating the X-Men better is Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run where Cyclops literally decides to expand the X-Men to non-mutant issues.
    Well the current run on Krakoa does expand into non-mutant issues like ecology and environmentalism (the X-gene and mutantkind being that they are organic conduits of power are essentially natural selection's last defense against the anthroposcene world that's gutting the planet for its resources with the ultimate aim of creating a cold lifeless singularity), and also economic issues like capitalism and neoliberalism (in X-Men #4 with Hickman/Yu in that classic issue with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Magneto rocks a white suit, and Apocalypse looks Dr. Manhattan-ish in a double-breasted suit).

    One thing about the X-Men and the minority metaphor is that the X-Men's heyday in discussing these issues happened in the 70s and 80s when you had censorship and industry taboos about dealing with a lot of hot-button issues. The X-Men became the place to deal with and talk of those issues...but in the last two decades where you have Kamala Khan and Miles voicing the immigrant and hyphenated community experience, where Black Panther and its Afrofuturism has taken off, as has Jessica Jones and Luke Cage...the X-Men no longer hve monopoly to discuss those issues or be the locus for representating that.

    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.

    Hickman said that the X-Men need to constantly evolve and change, unlike other Marvel titles where (Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) you have some consistency. The X-Men ultimately are intended to challenge the idea of normal and provide a sense of otherness. So the current X-Men run has an entire society concieved and executed in a way different from how humans have organized theirs, where they are basically on the way of developing their own religion, their own language, their own science (like that sequence where they use mutant powers to basically be their own NASA and Houston using just powers). It's even gotten into expanding and challenging the family structure so you have Jean-Scott-Logan-Emma in a poly relationship, overturning monogamous norms and so on.

  6. #66
    Amazing Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.
    Honestly. This is kind of why X-Men and the rest of the Marvel Universe can't integrate with each other. It's not an in-universe reason, but an out-of-universe one. X-Men fans and larger Marvel Universe fans are constantly at odds (this thread being the prime example) but this one extract kind of encapsulates it.

    "X-Men represent good and nature. Avengers dumb, feed the world to the machine" is a gross-oversimplification that makes it seem like the whole theme is about kicking down against the rest of the Marvel Universe (Which is, to be honest, I don't think was Hickman's point here, but that's not the issue at hand)

    I follow both X-Men and other Marvel titles. They are fine, but the more die-hard fans of both sides just dislike each other and will jump at any chance twist any narrative and overall just try to find a spot to one-up one another. No wonder no more X-Men or mutants in general don't appear in other stories. Editors, writers and fans have created artistic ghettos at odds with each other.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Considering how Susan Storm is a Grade-A Karen who acts like she owns Yancy Street, I am not sure if that's the best flex.



    Well the current run on Krakoa does expand into non-mutant issues like ecology and environmentalism (the X-gene and mutantkind being that they are organic conduits of power are essentially natural selection's last defense against the anthroposcene world that's gutting the planet for its resources with the ultimate aim of creating a cold lifeless singularity), and also economic issues like capitalism and neoliberalism (in X-Men #4 with Hickman/Yu in that classic issue with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Magneto rocks a white suit, and Apocalypse looks Dr. Manhattan-ish in a double-breasted suit).

    One thing about the X-Men and the minority metaphor is that the X-Men's heyday in discussing these issues happened in the 70s and 80s when you had censorship and industry taboos about dealing with a lot of hot-button issues. The X-Men became the place to deal with and talk of those issues...but in the last two decades where you have Kamala Khan and Miles voicing the immigrant and hyphenated community experience, where Black Panther and its Afrofuturism has taken off, as has Jessica Jones and Luke Cage...the X-Men no longer hve monopoly to discuss those issues or be the locus for representating that.

    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.

    Hickman said that the X-Men need to constantly evolve and change, unlike other Marvel titles where (Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) you have some consistency. The X-Men ultimately are intended to challenge the idea of normal and provide a sense of otherness. So the current X-Men run has an entire society concieved and executed in a way different from how humans have organized theirs, where they are basically on the way of developing their own religion, their own language, their own science (like that sequence where they use mutant powers to basically be their own NASA and Houston using just powers). It's even gotten into expanding and challenging the family structure so you have Jean-Scott-Logan-Emma in a poly relationship, overturning monogamous norms and so on.
    Y'all are really trying it with the Karen thing... This doesn't match up at all.

    The fact that it's solely based on her not wanting Franklin to leave makes it even more ridiculous.
    Last edited by Crimz; 07-11-2020 at 01:29 AM.
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  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Y'all are really trying it with the Karen thing... This doesn't match up at all.

    The fact that it's solely based on her not wanting Franklin to leave makes it even more ridiculous.
    most of her self righteous rants are the most karen thing ever, and it's framed in such a way she gets to scream about it witout any actual argumentation back.
    the whole "SO MY PRECIOUS VALERIA ISNT GOOD ENOUGH" rant screams of : mom who just cant belive her brat wasn't accepted to ballet class even tho she has 2 left feet, she also just can't understand why we have to wear masks.
    then again she's pratically just mom, the super-hero.

    It seems to me like a natural progression of her "character, that and of course another power feat that's usefull for a respect thread on reddit, I guess.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-11-2020 at 01:43 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Considering how Susan Storm is a Grade-A Karen who acts like she owns Yancy Street, I am not sure if that's the best flex.
    I disagree.

    Well the current run on Krakoa does expand into non-mutant issues like ecology and environmentalism (the X-gene and mutantkind being that they are organic conduits of power are essentially natural selection's last defense against the anthroposcene world that's gutting the planet for its resources with the ultimate aim of creating a cold lifeless singularity), and also economic issues like capitalism and neoliberalism (in X-Men #4 with Hickman/Yu in that classic issue with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Magneto rocks a white suit, and Apocalypse looks Dr. Manhattan-ish in a double-breasted suit).
    That very same issue had two known "ambassadors" intimidate and threaten the humans there, and told them Krakoa is there to dominate them, they weren't on a mission for peace and coexistence the Xavier of old wanted. It's not about aesthetics, it's about what they represent. It's true Krakoa has a right to exist and mutants should have more of a say in the global markets, however, how they go about this is deeply concerning.

    A key moment is this:

    https://abload.de/image.php?img=13awjgt.jpg

    This incident should be all over Marvel, news media should should logically be on the airwaves and everyone from Spider-man to T'Challa should have an opinion on a Krkaoa representative, being Apocalypse (who needs no introduction as he's a world class super-villain who has done things like threaten the U.N. and attacked populated areas) confessed to destroying the Bronze Age of humanity and did so to shock human ambassadors at a political summit. Krkaoa should also be ready to counter this with Xavier's assassination and how their bodyguards got into a firefight with the opposition's security. They won't be able to hide the fact Gorgon was one of the bodyguards, someone who recently attacked Madripoor with a dragon and is a high levelHYDRA/Hand/cult leader.

    The X-line really should have a comic book to show nations and media react to Krakoa, no action just people talking.

    One thing about the X-Men and the minority metaphor is that the X-Men's heyday in discussing these issues happened in the 70s and 80s when you had censorship and industry taboos about dealing with a lot of hot-button issues. The X-Men became the place to deal with and talk of those issues...but in the last two decades where you have Kamala Khan and Miles voicing the immigrant and hyphenated community experience, where Black Panther and its Afrofuturism has taken off, as has Jessica Jones and Luke Cage...the X-Men no longer hve monopoly to discuss those issues or be the locus for representating that.
    This is on the right track but it's not entirely true those subjects haven't been touched on by various Marvel titles. However, not all mutants fit in any of those categories. Many are just as dangerous to mutant kind as mutant bigots are, and are the ones doing oppressing not being oppressed. These mutants have been with the X-men comics since the beginning, they're the ones the X-men were created to fight since they are dangerous to everyone. Krakoa lets these mutants have political, social, business and financial power.

    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.
    Hickman also acknowledges their decisions should be put under scrutiny and not shown constantly in good light. Krakoa mirrors the Illuminati, who were protagonists in Avengers titles, and they were very controversial and not at all "good guys" reader should agree with because they do something. Also, in some futures he has them fail and that many of their leaders, like Apocalypse, is not to be so easily trusted. I don't remember exactly which time line it was but when the last remaining mutants gave him (their leader) the data he needed he told them point blank he would have sacrificed theirlives for that data without any remorse. Moira herself is hardly shown without sinister overtones or that her reasoning shouldn't be trusted. For example, she began by creating a cure for mutants and only stopped doing this to support mutants when Destiny burnt her to death.

    Hickman said that the X-Men need to constantly evolve and change, unlike other Marvel titles where (Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) you have some consistency. The X-Men ultimately are intended to challenge the idea of normal and provide a sense of otherness. So the current X-Men run has an entire society concieved and executed in a way different from how humans have organized theirs, where they are basically on the way of developing their own religion, their own language, their own science (like that sequence where they use mutant powers to basically be their own NASA and Houston using just powers). It's even gotten into expanding and challenging the family structure so you have Jean-Scott-Logan-Emma in a poly relationship, overturning monogamous norms and so on.
    I think you'll find people don't have any complaints on that aspect of Krakoa. They're just skeptical the only reason they can do this is by sacrificing their ethics to do it.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    most of her self righteous rants are the most karen thing ever, and it's framed in such a way she gets to scream about it witout any actual argumentation back.
    the whole "SO MY PRECIOUS VALERIA ISNT GOOD ENOUGH" rant screams of : mom who just cant belive her brat wasn't accepted to ballet class even tho she has 2 left feet, she also just can't understand why we have to wear masks.
    then again she's pratically just mom, the super-hero.

    It seems to me like a natural progression of her "character, that and of course another power feat that's usefull for a respect thread on reddit, I guess.
    You're inferring a lot from one interaction in one book out of nearly 60 years of characterization, but go off I guess...

    No Sue is not a Karen and there is nothing wrong with not wanting your kid on sex-cult island and being pissed when people value the life of one kid over the other. I'm tired of talking about it.
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  11. #71
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    If anything, it also hurts the X-Men as an allegory for the Civil Rights Movement. MLK went on to fight against classism and other forms of inequality after LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act. One of his most famous quotes is "Injustice everywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

    Integrating the X-Men better into the MU would therefore feel natural.
    It's an outdated and invalid allegory from the 60's when diversity was frowned upon. The only way you could try to teach kids about other people was by making them white with super powers. Today they can, and they did, use real POC and LGBTI+ to not beat around the bush and connect it to real world problems. Especially ones that plague the comic book community such as misogyny and homophobia (Iceman being gay, female Thor)

    Integrating the X-Men is a good idea, but let's not ignore the fact that the majority of X-Men fans have no interest in other Marvel properties.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    Integrating the X-Men is a good idea, but let's not ignore the fact that the majority of X-Men fans have no interest in other Marvel properties.
    1) Says who? I know a lot of people who enjoy the X-men who are also fans of Spider-man, punisher and iron man and love the MCU movies.

    2) That's actually the POINT of crossovers and team ups. Get those fans of X-men to try out a Spider-man book or Ghost Rider book... and then they'll buy those too.

  13. #73
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    1) Says who? I know a lot of people who enjoy the X-men who are also fans of Spider-man, punisher and iron man and love the MCU movies.

    2) That's actually the POINT of crossovers and team ups. Get those fans of X-men to try out a Spider-man book or Ghost Rider book... and then they'll buy those too.
    Says X-Men fans. Check out their forum and the numbers. I'm an X-Men fan and a MU fan, and I like their crossovers, but most people reject them unless it's Wolverine. They want the X-Men to have to spotlight and mixing them with everyone else makes them feel threatened.

    It's a mix of 90's readers/people who grew up during the X-Men age of Marvel, and the idea of people our age making up the people who buy comics.

    Also, having them mix means not every story revolving around mutant issues nor mutant characters. X-Men fans would rather see Mystique than Modok. The Uncanny Avengers was a step in the right direction, but mutants always have to go back to X-books where they are "better written."

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I agree there should be more mutants that are not associated with the X-Men, but I think Marvel hesitates to show ordinary mutants that aren't heroes to not create the impression that too many people in the MU have powers.

    For example, Peter Parker is less unique if a huge percentage of his classmates are mutants. Or the Avengers are more morally dubious if a huge chunk of the people they protect have powers and don't require protection.
    They don't need to be high end impressive powers like Havok or Colossus. It can be minor things that make them just a little more than normal human.

    And it doesn't need to be a huge percentage. Out of an entire student body and faculty of a major university....what % may have powers...mutant or otherwise....and just show that.

    At the same time I want to see some that do have more impressive powers...but just want nothing to do with super heroics....but are willing to defend themselves from the mob. When the mob shows up screaming obscenities and threats they wind up getting their collective butts handed to them and the courts side with the mutant who just protected himself.

    ================================

    I posted this in the X-Men section...thoughts on broader mutant presence and humanities portrayal...

    About 10-15% of people in the world would be outright genocidal racists...gotta kill them all for the human race to survive.
    About 10-15% of people in the world would be about judging people as individuals and on their own actions...everyone has a right to exist without being attacked as long as they are not doing that to others.

    The 70-80% left would be up in the air. If they are the victim of mutant crime they could go either way....kill them all or punish the individual.

    There also need to be pro-mutant....but anti-X-Men mutants out there. They believe the X-Men running around in spangly costumes acting as if their powers give them some sort of extrajudicial authority are as much a threat to the mutant community as Magneto and the Brotherhood at their worst.

    As well...there needs to be mutants who go to court. Someone like Ben Deeds who got kicked out of school for being a mutant sues and wins a discrimination case. Or a mutant who defends him/herself with lethal force against a group of humans who attack him and is declared not guilty on the merits of the case.

    Mutants also need to be represented on the Avengers (I would say Firestar, Beast, Madison Jeffries/Box, and maybe Justice [just not with Firestar]) and in government service...Federal Law Enforcement Agents who do not wear masks and operate as Agent Whatshisname in a suit and tie (think Pete Wisdom but a Deputy U.S. Marshal like Raylan Givens).
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-11-2020 at 04:20 AM.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    1) Says who? I know a lot of people who enjoy the X-men who are also fans of Spider-man, punisher and iron man and love the MCU movies.

    2) That's actually the POINT of crossovers and team ups. Get those fans of X-men to try out a Spider-man book or Ghost Rider book... and then they'll buy those too.
    you're second point doesn't work when the majority of these crossovers over past years(inhumans vs x-men/axis/avengers vs x-men, etc) have been trying their hardest to use mutants to uplift other proprieties at the x-men's cost, avengers vs x-men hijacked the conclusion to the messiah arc, butchered phoenix lore and tried it's very hardest to paint mutants as the villains for the avengers (and every other marvel team that joined that side) to overcome and defeat, destroyed Utopia, and gave us a conclusion to M-Day, an event that victimized the franchise, with a story that vilefies them.

    Another example, uncanny avengers, butchered apocalypse lore and a terrible dark angel saga sequel because avenger's elements such as thor and kang were shoved into it.

    Even in this recent F4 crossover, every single issue is filled with the fantastic four's opinions, acusations and takes, the x-men are never allowed to speak up or even say something back, they serve to look cool on the covers and look to the air as every member of fantastic four lectures them witout any semblance of an equal back and forth dialogue, it's never about their opinions or motivations, they are just there to get finger wagged by the F4 that are OBVIOUSLY framed as the main characters, because it's not a true crossover of equal parts but a story to uplift the fantastic four witout any care for the x-men, but promoted as a true "crossover"

    all of these create the oposite effect, I don't want to buy any avengers, fantastic four comics or whatever.

    its a problem that has soured any crossover for me personally, because everytime the x-men are treated as the main punching bags AND the cash cows that everyone outside the x-offices has no issues trashing, and has been so for almost a decade, everytime a new "crossover" is anounced I know it doesnt matter if they are in a sex cult island or playing respectability politics, trying their very best to super-hero their way out of genocide witout any semblance of a spine or teeth, in an ugly mansion that tends to explode, that there's one common and certain thing:

    The x-men wont get anything from it, not even a fun time, wich ends up causing said hostility and desire for seperation.

    Until we get a bit more balance or even the tables reversed, I. have no interest in "integration" that realy is just picking up popular x-men concepts and characters to promote other titles.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-11-2020 at 05:20 AM.

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