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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    you're second point doesn't work when the majority of these crossovers over past years(inhumans vs x-men/axis/avengers vs x-men, etc) have been trying their hardest to use mutants to uplift other proprieties at the x-men's cost, avengers vs x-men hijacked the conclusion to the messiah arc, butchered phoenix lore and tried it's very hardest to paint mutants as the villains for the avengers (and every other marvel team that joined that side) to overcome and defeat, destroyed Utopia, and gave us a conclusion to M-Day, an event that victimized the franchise, with a story that vilefies them.

    Another example, uncanny avengers, butchered apocalypse lore and a terrible dark angel saga sequel because avenger's elements such as thor and kang were shoved into it.

    Even in this recent F4 crossover, every single issue is filled with the fantastic four's opinions, acusations and takes, the x-men are never allowed to speak up or even say something back, they serve to look cool on the covers and look to the air as every member of fantastic four lectures them witout any semblance of an equal back and forth dialogue, it's never about their opinions or motivations, they are just there to get finger wagged by the F4 that are OBVIOUSLY framed as the main characters, because it's not a true crossover of equal parts but a story to uplift the fantastic four witout any care for the x-men, but promoted as a true "crossover"

    all of these create the oposite effect, I don't want to buy any avengers, fantastic four comics or whatever.

    its a problem that has soured any crossover for me personally, because everytime the x-men are treated as the main punching bags AND the cash cows that everyone outside the x-offices has no issues trashing, and has been so for almost a decade, everytime a new "crossover" is anounced I know it doesnt matter if they are in a sex cult island or playing respectability politics, trying their very best to super-hero their way out of genocide witout any semblance of a spine or teeth, in an ugly mansion that tends to explode, that there's one common and certain thing:

    The x-men wont get anything from it, not even a fun time, wich ends up causing said hostility and desire for seperation.

    Until we get a bit more balance or even the tables reversed, I. have no interest in "integration" that realy is just picking up popular x-men concepts and characters to promote other titles.
    The X-Men's opinions...and racism...were clearly portrayed. Franklin is a mutant...therefore the opinions and decisions of his inferior human parents don't matter and the mutant community will do a much better job of raising him than his biological parents. Pay no attention to superhuman arms race they are engaging in to gain control of all Omega Level Mutants to use as weapons against their enemies.

    Also...completely ignore the X-Men's hypocrisy when it comes to them going thru their gates to anywhere in the world and pressuring and threatening the rest of the world into accepting Krakoa or else...but the FF come looking for Franklin and Valeria because the X-Men have shown they are not trustworthy and the X-Men have a conniption.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-11-2020 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The X-Men's opinions...and racism...were clearly portrayed. Franklin is a mutant...therefore the opinions and decisions of his inferior human parents don't matter and the mutant community will do a much better job of raising him than his biological parents. Pay no attention to superhuman arms race they are engaging in to gain control of all Omega Level Mutants to use as weapons against their enemies.

    Also...completely ignore the X-Men's hypocrisy when it comes to them going thru their gates to anywhere in the world and pressuring and threatening the rest of the world into accepting Krakoa or else...but the FF come looking for Franklin and Valeria because the X-Men have shown they are not trustworthy and the X-Men have a conniption.

    great job at deflecting and MISSING the point, trough out the 3 issues that we have right now, there's at least 4 instances where the non x-men character make page wide accusations and atacks that in an BALANCED narrative would have created a discussion, however trough framing and convinient scene changes, the non mutants ALWAYS get the last word.

    If the thing calls krakoa genosha, storm shouldnt look like a dumbass whose tongue was taken looking at the air, she needed to say "genosha. wasnt the issue but the atomic sentinels capable of genocide created by humans"
    sue storm yells in the defense of her brat, has a page rant about it, but instead of having cyclops say something back, ANYTHING, she's allowed to have the last word by breaking the communication line and continue ranting.
    They invade a nation over "suspicions" , yey they are given the last word again, then as they are allowed to flee the living island filled with powerfull mutants and call their goverment (that was just speaking about where their children were since they can't keep a track on them) creeps and EVEN COMPLAIN when said nation that they JUST invaded chases them.
    Doom WHO IS THE LAST PERSON IN THE WORLD TO EVER GIVE MORAL LECTURES is alllowed by the narrative to finger wag and charles xavier, manipulative, charismatic and smart charles that always manages to say something, somehow stays quiet? because conviniently the page turns and the scene changes.

    Im not even gonna deny that the x-men deserve some pushback in this narrative, but it's so clearly designed in such a way that it's not even enjoyable to me and other x-men fans, as this book hasnt been well recieved in mainly x-men circles.
    The mini has been a one sided narrative that is viciously clear what's the story true intentions and true protagonists.

    That's the issue, all "crossovers": are like this, they arent designed to provide a piece of content thinking of both demographics the title is meant to appeal to, it's a fantastic four story with an x-men supportive cast and it's not the first time this happens, but the most recent one.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-11-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The X-Men's opinions...and racism...were clearly portrayed. Franklin is a mutant...therefore the opinions and decisions of his inferior human parents don't matter and the mutant community will do a much better job of raising him than his biological parents.
    The point is that Reed and Susan have been raising their kid by basically passing him off as a human mutate all the while deferring the issue of him being a mutant for "tomorrow, tomorrow, and never today". They have dodged the issue under the pretense and arrogance that their celebrity and privilege will make sure that Franklin never has to deal with issues of being a mutant.

    The X-Men merely came to give pamphlets and a guided tour of Krakoa to Franklin and instead the minute they arrive, Susan Storm attacks them openly before they speak, say, or do anything...that's total Karen behavior, not different from Amy Cooper at Central Park or those idiots who pulled out guns after seeing black people leave restaurants. Likewise, Susan Storm attacked Magneto first, and that started the fight.

    I happen to like Susan Storm in other stories, but in Zdarsky's miniseries, she is definitely a grade-A Karen, who wants to "speak to the manager of Krakoa".

    Also...completely ignore the X-Men's hypocrisy when it comes to them going thru their gates to anywhere in the world and pressuring and threatening the rest of the world into accepting Krakoa or else...but the FF come looking for Franklin and Valeria because the X-Men have shown they are not trustworthy and the X-Men have a conniption.
    The Fantastic Four act as spies, sneaking on sovereign territory. And after they find out that the X-Men didn't kidnap Franklin and Valeria as they wrongly suspected, Ben Grimm says words to the effects of "Ok you guys are innocent but I still don't like you".

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The point is that Reed and Susan have been raising their kid by basically passing him off as a human mutate all the while deferring the issue of him being a mutant for "tomorrow, tomorrow, and never today". They have dodged the issue under the pretense and arrogance that their celebrity and privilege will make sure that Franklin never has to deal with issues of being a mutant.
    It's about protection, not delaying anything and he's still a kid. As a celebrity he's got more going for him to be safe in public then being thrown onto an X-team who die regularly, being at risk at being experimented on by Sinister, or being sent to the Crucible. That's got to be an option Krakoa want to restore his powers, that's what the practice is supposed to be there for. The celebrity thing is so they weren't made to be freaks by society, and is incredibly valuable for Ben Grimm to have a life.

    The X-Men merely came to give pamphlets and a guided tour of Krakoa to Franklin and instead the minute they arrive, Susan Storm attacks them openly before they speak, say, or do anything...that's total Karen behavior, not different from Amy Cooper at Central Park or those idiots who pulled out guns after seeing black people leave restaurants. Likewise, Susan Storm attacked Magneto first, and that started the fight.
    The "X-men" wanted Franklin for sinister purposes, how Xavier recruited Kitty was very shady, more like a scene of Blofeld getting a spy to do his bidding without telling the spy the whole story. They came in as a powerful group, which wasn't needed for a friendly visit and allowed a war criminal with blood on his hands to try to convince Franklin he was above his weakling human parents and distracted the FF with arguing while Kitty took Franklin away without the parents noticing. Magneto isn't harmless, and he certainly deserves to be kept contained because he's known for killing people and causing massive destruction when he has a tantrum. The fact Xavier bought him along showed how compromised he is, he had to know the FF would react like that to him. Magneto isn't known for being friendly to humans.

    I happen to like Susan Storm in other stories, but in Zdarsky's miniseries, she is definitely a grade-A Karen, who wants to "speak to the manager of Krakoa".
    I disagree.

    The Fantastic Four act as spies, sneaking on sovereign territory. And after they find out that the X-Men didn't kidnap Franklin and Valeria as they wrongly suspected, Ben Grimm says words to the effects of "Ok you guys are innocent but I still don't like you".
    They'd have been happy to visit like tourists do but Krakao insn't one for business for non-mutants. Despite their children being at risk why isn't Krakoa allowing them to help find their own children? The "X-men" didn't bother showing any concern for the missing Valeria because she was just a human, all they wanted was Franklin.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 07-11-2020 at 06:23 AM.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Magneto isn't known for being friendly to humans.
    He's known to be friendly to the Fantastic Four. Back in the original FF/X-Men crossover in the 80s (of which this is a sequel to) when he was in charge of the X-Men and visited Reed about fixing Kitty's perma-intangibility.

    That makes their reaction to him less forgivable.

    Despite their children being at risk why isn't Krakoa allowing them to help find their own children?
    They did help them, by telling the Fantastic Four that they had nothing to do with it. At the same time, they were worried about the Marauders who went missing and were tracing them.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    He's known to be friendly to the Fantastic Four. Back in the original FF/X-Men crossover in the 80s (of which this is a sequel to) when he was in charge of the X-Men and visited Reed about fixing Kitty's perma-intangibility.
    The FF know who he is, they protect humanity from super-villains like him. The prior crossover was hardly friendly between the two groups, they got into fights and had misunderstandings. The X-men have been far too friendly with him over the years and he's done much more since.

    That makes their reaction to him less forgivable.
    They don't owe Magneto anything.

    They did help them, by telling the Fantastic Four that they had nothing to do with it. At the same time, they were worried about the Marauders who went missing and were tracing them.
    They did a horrible job of doing that, and keeping them away was unnecessary. They weren't helpless. Which the FF could have helped with. But Krakoa won't do this because of the above and they problem didn't want the FF learning what's going in Krakoa more than they have already.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well the current run on Krakoa does expand into non-mutant issues like ecology and environmentalism (the X-gene and mutantkind being that they are organic conduits of power are essentially natural selection's last defense against the anthroposcene world that's gutting the planet for its resources with the ultimate aim of creating a cold lifeless singularity), and also economic issues like capitalism and neoliberalism (in X-Men #4 with Hickman/Yu in that classic issue with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Magneto rocks a white suit, and Apocalypse looks Dr. Manhattan-ish in a double-breasted suit).

    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.
    Sorry, but I have no idea what this means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hickman said that the X-Men need to constantly evolve and change, unlike other Marvel titles where (Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) you have some consistency. The X-Men ultimately are intended to challenge the idea of normal and provide a sense of otherness. So the current X-Men run has an entire society concieved and executed in a way different from how humans have organized theirs, where they are basically on the way of developing their own religion, their own language, their own science (like that sequence where they use mutant powers to basically be their own NASA and Houston using just powers). It's even gotten into expanding and challenging the family structure so you have Jean-Scott-Logan-Emma in a poly relationship, overturning monogamous norms and so on.
    If the X-Men are still a metaphor for marginalized identities in any way (regardless of which identity the writer wants to parallel with), the idea that a person with a specific identity should live separate from humans who don’t share their identity and develop their own separate religion/science/culture is still inherently racist. Such a premise is still based on the idea that identities such as race are naturally-arisen, and that there is some form of natural or spiritual “unity” between all people that share that identity. In reality, this is a myth that comes from racist doctrines - racial or ethnic differences are no different than human variations in height or hair color. People won’t respond well to the X-Men embodying this myth for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    It's an outdated and invalid allegory from the 60's when diversity was frowned upon. The only way you could try to teach kids about other people was by making them white with super powers. Today they can, and they did, use real POC and LGBTI+ to not beat around the bush and connect it to real world problems. Especially ones that plague the comic book community such as misogyny and homophobia (Iceman being gay, female Thor)

    Integrating the X-Men is a good idea, but let's not ignore the fact that the majority of X-Men fans have no interest in other Marvel properties.
    Even with the allegory not being perfect, if the X-Men are anything like the Civil Rights Movement in spirit they should expand their heroism to non-mutant threats as well.

    I don't see any evidence that the majority of X-Men fans have no interest in other Marvel properties.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 07-11-2020 at 07:58 AM.

  8. #83
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    I'd like to see it. One of the reasons I loved the original Alpha Flight, New Warriors and Guardians of the Galaxy series is because they featured several mutants.

  9. #84
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    I have no problem with mutants being in other books, I just don't want the other books to turn into X-titles.

    One story here and there about Avengers fighting sentinels is okay, but then regularly speaking out against mutant prejudice in every issue is too much. That's what X-titles are for. Really for the most part, I think if you want Captain America to speak out on mutant rights, it's best done by having him guest star in an X-men issue rather than having it take over his own title. It's more fo a story X-fans would want, so let's have it in the book the X-fans are going to read.

    Right now though, I really don't want the X-men interacting with anyone until they remember they're supposed to be heroes, not self absorbed racists.

  10. #85
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The point is that Reed and Susan have been raising their kid by basically passing him off as a human mutate all the while deferring the issue of him being a mutant for "tomorrow, tomorrow, and never today". They have dodged the issue under the pretense and arrogance that their celebrity and privilege will make sure that Franklin never has to deal with issues of being a mutant.
    I think this is a perfect example of how some people think. It's either you're a mutant and have to be with the X-Men or not. Apparently people want them to be tied to the franchise and not develop and just another species that contributes to stories in the MU.

    If you're a new character with the X-Men, you'll have to take a back seat because the main characters are the only ones that matter.
    "You set off the Terrigen Bomb giving the world every excuse to fear the word Inhuman."

    "This is-- this is what Jean felt like..."

    "If you are a mutant, in this world, you are guilty until proven innocent."

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Sorry, but I have no idea what this means.
    Read HoX/PoX and specially the charts in-between and the final issue of PoX#6, and this dialogue by the Librarian:

    The Librarian: Look around you, Moira Kinross. See the cage. That's inevitable. Not you being outside of it. Mutants are an evolutionary response to an environment. You are...naturally occurring. But what happens when humanity stops being beholden to its environments? When man controls the building blocks of biology and technology... Evolution is no match for genetic engineering. What good was one mutant adapting to its environment when we could make ten super men? You thought it was the machines that would defeat you...but we just used them to buy time. Sentinels bought us years. Nimrods bought us decades.

    That panel of the Librarian giving this speech is accompanied by images of superheroes (generic ones) flying, making it clear exactly where the Avengers and FF fit in with this equation.

    If the X-Men are still a metaphor for marginalized identities in any way (regardless of which identity the writer wants to parallel with), the idea that a person with a specific identity should live separate from humans who don’t share their identity and develop their own separate religion/science/culture is still inherently racist.
    That's not how HoX/PoX frames it at all. The X-Men formed Krakoa not because they "should" but because they have to. Every attempt at coexistence has failed, every time mutants try to rise up, genocide robots come for them. In every single one of Moira Kinross' previous lives, where she tried multiple different approaches (sometimes peaceful, sometimes not), extinction happened.

    Minorities asking for a piece of land where they can maintain their own culture and way of life, as a specific response to actual persecution and repeated acts of violence, is not uncommon in the real world, it's why many Native tribes prefer to stay on reservation choosing not to assimilate into the colonizer's culture, and even now there are many oppressed groups whose calls for nationhood in order to stave off persecution is seen as sympathetic across the board, such as say the demands of the Kurdish people for a Kurdistan, since they face repeated massacres and acts of violence across the Middle East and Turkey.

    Multiculturalism and so on is definitely the ideal but it can only happen from a position of equality and fairness, not when one side is repeatedly staring down the barrel of a sentinel's palm-gun, and they can't always rely on their celebrity pals to give them attention in between their alcoholic binges, their murder-robot making and wife-beating, their selling marriages to the devil, their hoarding of inventions because one guy thinks the "world's not ready" and so on and so forth.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-11-2020 at 08:40 AM.

  12. #87
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Unless written by a competent and talented writer who understands the premise of mutant existence in the MU and is invested in giving an objective and solid viewpoint relatively free of personal bias and agendas...then my answer is "No".
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  13. #88
    Incredible Member FIGHT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I am not talking about the X-Mutant, Krakoan sycophants.

    Characters like Justice and Ultra Girl who are not going to Krakoa and they verbalize it and speak against mutants going.

    Or new characters....say a teenage girl with super strength whose parents were killed by Apocalypse when he attacked NYC during Fall of The Mutants...she saw X-Factor saving people and considered them heroes...until Krakoa. She thinks any mutant who goes to the island is scum for siding the Apocalypse and when Cyclops comes to recruit her she basically tells him off.
    If you have the X-gene and refuse to affiliate with the Great nation of Krakoa then you ain't even a real mutant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    Xmen and mutants should be in their own separate universe
    This person gets it.

  14. #89
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    Xmen and mutants should be in their own seperate universe
    They're already in their own world.

  15. #90
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    I know I was involved in it...but let's not get bogged down in a subject FF vs X-Men that has a couple threads devoted to it and discuss the broader question.

    For or against
    pros and cons of it
    how to portray it

    Again...I am definitely for it...and the writer does need to not have an agenda of one side or the other right or better or whatever.

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