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  1. #91
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Marvel doesn't have a wide variety of talented minority/POC/LGBTQ+ writers, editors and other higher level consultants that fully understand how to write and discuss bigotry in a 21st century, millennial/generation Z world. Racism, homophobia and the like haven't changed that much, but the world is different from the Civil Rights era. Mutant politics feels quite outdated the way it is written. Though I should say, Hickman's ideas of tackling sexual freedom with the mutants is a novel concept.

    Marvel is also addicted to 'hero vs hero' narratives, as well as having a major case of 'event syndrome' because they believe these things sell (and perhaps the numbers say so) and thus the X-Men/mutants vs Avengers/Fantastic Four/the world narrative is put to the forefront. There's also the idea of maintaining the status quo of the universe (which is a mainstream comics wide problem) which keeps things locked in a perpetual state of stagnation as opposed to any sense of change.

    Fans on both sides and how they view the characters of the opposing fandom are part of problem. X-Men fans think the rest of the MU superhero community might as well be mutantphobic because of their silence and inaction, and now wider MU fans think the X-Men only care about mutant problems and are supremacists. Neither seem to get that this is an out-of-universe problem with writers ascribing to this narrative for stakes and too many 'offices' within Marvel and an apparent lack of communication between them. Storm is an active character in Black Panther's book, is T'Challa's lover, was written to be worshipped as a god amongst Wakandans (which some books will imply that they are anti-mutant), yet this relationship is not acknowledged (as far as I know) in X-Books.

    The thing is, if Marvel and X-Books want to posit mutantphobia as a universe wide problem, then it should be treated as such from all sides, instead of one. Why have non-X-Book writers barely acknowledged its existence recently? Many main larger universe titles are quick to tackle hot-button issues like sexism, racism etc but the in-universe bigotry that is apparently rampant is never discussed? Likewise, why haven't X-writers bothered to address which non-mutants in the superhero community are allies to mutants?

    However, mutants being excluded from the wider universe does affect them more negatively than fans want to admit. I'm surprised no one brought up how rights issues affected X-Men titles, the way mutants were written (I v X) and their visibility in other media (Marvel vs Capcom Infinite). Shutting mutants out may seem like a good thing in making their marginalisation make sense, but it hurts the brand. One could argue that the recent superhero movie boom of the last decade (starting from 2012) is not something the X-Men and mutants benefitted from. The rise of the MCU and Marvel-related media in pop culture also saw the X-Men dwindle in popularity. Only Deadpool benefited from this, despite all of them being Marvel IP.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Marvel doesn't have a wide variety of talented minority/POC/LGBTQ+ writers, editors and other higher level consultants that fully understand how to write and discuss bigotry in a 21st century, millennial/generation Z world. Racism, homophobia and the like haven't changed that much, but the world is different from the Civil Rights era. Mutant politics feels quite outdated the way it is written. Though I should say, Hickman's ideas of tackling sexual freedom with the mutants is a novel concept.

    Marvel is also addicted to 'hero vs hero' narratives, as well as having a major case of 'event syndrome' because they believe these things sell (and perhaps the numbers say so) and thus the X-Men/mutants vs Avengers/Fantastic Four/the world narrative is put to the forefront. There's also the idea of maintaining the status quo of the universe (which is a mainstream comics wide problem) which keeps things locked in a perpetual state of stagnation as opposed to any sense of change.

    Fans on both sides and how they view the characters of the opposing fandom are part of problem. X-Men fans think the rest of the MU superhero community might as well be mutantphobic because of their silence and inaction, and now wider MU fans think the X-Men only care about mutant problems and are supremacists. Neither seem to get that this is an out-of-universe problem with writers ascribing to this narrative for stakes and too many 'offices' within Marvel and an apparent lack of communication between them. Storm is an active character in Black Panther's book, is T'Challa's lover, was written to be worshipped as a god amongst Wakandans (which some books will imply that they are anti-mutant), yet this relationship is not acknowledged (as far as I know) in X-Books.

    The thing is, if Marvel and X-Books want to posit mutantphobia as a universe wide problem, then it should be treated as such from all sides, instead of one. Why have non-X-Book writers barely acknowledged its existence recently? Many main larger universe titles are quick to tackle hot-button issues like sexism, racism etc but the in-universe bigotry that is apparently rampant is never discussed? Likewise, why haven't X-writers bothered to address which non-mutants in the superhero community are allies to mutants?

    However, mutants being excluded from the wider universe does affect them more negatively than fans want to admit. I'm surprised no one brought up how rights issues affected X-Men titles, the way mutants were written (I v X) and their visibility in other media (Marvel vs Capcom Infinite). Shutting mutants out may seem like a good thing in making their marginalisation make sense, but it hurts the brand. One could argue that the recent superhero movie boom of the last decade (starting from 2012) is not something the X-Men and mutants benefitted from. The rise of the MCU and Marvel-related media in pop culture also saw the X-Men dwindle in popularity. Only Deadpool benefited from this, despite all of them being Marvel IP.
    Agree with most of your post. Disagree about Xmen dwindling in popularity. LOGAN was a big success and is the most respected and liked superhero movie, influential on the MCU as Kevin Feige admitted. Hickman’s run is a top seller. Xmen Days of Future Past was also successful. Marvel has shunted Xmen out of the spotlight in games and cartoons but that hasn’t diminished the appeal of the characters.

  3. #93
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Agree with most of your post. Disagree about Xmen dwindling in popularity. LOGAN was a big success and is the most respected and liked superhero movie, influential on the MCU as Kevin Feige admitted. Hickmanís run is a top seller. Xmen Days of Future Past was also successful. Marvel has shunted Xmen out of the spotlight in games and cartoons but that hasnít diminished the appeal of the characters.
    Logan being "the most respected and liked superhero movie" is debatable considering other superhero movies were both bigger successes and achieved greater accolades at the same time. Maybe I'm out of the loop but I barely see talking about Logan these days, and from what I understand the film was one of the inspirations for the yet-to-be-released Black Widow film which isn't saying the entire MCU owes something to Logan. I will say the film is pretty influential and usually brought up when talking about older heroes and "Lone Wolf and Cub" inspired stories.

    I'm not saying the characters themselves have lost their appeal but I feel like considering the X-Men film franchise went out with a whimper the exact same year the MCU had Endgame, you have to consider how they failed to leave an impact on pop culture in the last decade. I agree Days of Future Past was a very good film but they didn't capitalise on that.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    its a problem that has soured any crossover for me personally, because everytime the x-men are treated as the main punching bags AND the cash cows that everyone outside the x-offices has no issues trashing, and has been so for almost a decade, everytime a new "crossover" is anounced I know it doesnt matter if they are in a sex cult island or playing respectability politics, trying their very best to super-hero their way out of genocide witout any semblance of a spine or teeth, in an ugly mansion that tends to explode, that there's one common and certain thing.
    And how many times has Black Panther and Wakanda been trashed by the X-Office????


    Integrating the X-Men is a good idea, but let's not ignore the fact that the majority of X-Men fans have no interest in other Marvel properties.
    Say it again the folks in the back didn't hear you.

    And that also goes the other way.

    No one wants their book to be turned into a stealth X-Men book (ask Black Panther fans).

    When Marvel has tried outside of stuff like I vs X-it falls back to (BLANK) needs to go back to the X-Men where their is "better" writing.


    Funny more has been done with Storm OUTSIDE of X-Men than be den mother or BBF to Kitty or Jean.

    Same with Sunspot.

    Funny Synch can get a team up story in Spider-Man but not in his own franchise.

    What has Prodigy done between the end of New X-men and the upcoming X-Factor in the X-verse? He found some usage outside of it for 9 years.

    Yes there are some who would benefit being outside of the X-verse.

    HOWEVER the same issue that plagues Bat Characters and some times Superman Characters is the MAIN franchise DRAGS them back into the fold or hold that non-Bat/Superman book hostage in some crappy crossover.

    So what good is Prodigy say at Miles Morales's school in Miles's book only to only be dragged into whatever X-mess is going on in X-Men.

    Unless you do a Black Panther and ignore what is done is his book with Storm.

  5. #95
    Incredible Member FIGHT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    And how many times has Black Panther and Wakanda been trashed by the X-Office????
    Nothing comes to mind atm. (I dont read BP so im maybe missing stuff)

  6. #96
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Agree with most of your post. Disagree about Xmen dwindling in popularity. LOGAN was a big success and is the most respected and liked superhero movie, influential on the MCU as Kevin Feige admitted. Hickman’s run is a top seller. Xmen Days of Future Past was also successful. Marvel has shunted Xmen out of the spotlight in games and cartoons but that hasn’t diminished the appeal of the characters.
    Where have you been? They're everywhere. You even mention one of the three films they had in the past 3 years. They were in Ultimate Alliance, in mobile games, and have a bunch of toys, and 2 TV shows. Anyway, they're still running on nostalgia, and it's working.

    I don't think the masses see the X-Men dwindling. They've always had some form of media since 1989. Yes, the FX shows and movies count. I think some people were afraid that the Avengers were overshadowing them because movies reach out to everyone, and they had good movies. Deadpool also had good movies and the las Wolverine movie wasn't bad. It's overrated, but I'm glad it exists.

  7. #97
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT View Post
    Nothing comes to mind atm. (I dont read BP so im maybe missing stuff)
    Avengers Vs. X-Men, when Namor, in the throes of Phoenix Force-induced psychosis, flooded Wakanda as revenge for sheltering the Avengers, who had held a mutant student (Transonic, I believe) prisoner. Oh, and Nezhno/Gentle's backstory casts Wakandan society in a pretty negative light as well, though whether it's on account of him being a mutant or being born with an outsider father varies.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #98
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Avengers Vs. X-Men, when Namor, in the throes of Phoenix Force-induced psychosis, flooded Wakanda as revenge for sheltering the Avengers, who had held a mutant student (Transonic, I believe) prisoner. Oh, and Nezhno/Gentle's backstory casts Wakandan society in a pretty negative light as well, though whether it's on account of him being a mutant or being born with an outsider father varies.
    They made mutants very OP, and they all became the Dark Phoenix. The problem was that they never when through a "green" Phoenix stage to show their corruption with power. It didn't make sense.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Avengers Vs. X-Men, when Namor, in the throes of Phoenix Force-induced psychosis, flooded Wakanda as revenge for sheltering the Avengers, who had held a mutant student (Transonic, I believe) prisoner. Oh, and Nezhno/Gentle's backstory casts Wakandan society in a pretty negative light as well, though whether it's on account of him being a mutant or being born with an outsider father varies.
    IIRC...it is because his father is an outsider (Russian). And I do like that even though common Wakandans treat him poorly....T'Challa himself has treated him with respect.

    I also like that he has been portrayed with 2 different modes when dealing with Storm. There was a scene in a X-Men: Worlds Apart limited. (I am doing this form memory so may not be 100% but it is the gist of it).

    Storm: Come Nehzno...we have business.
    Nehzno: Yes, My Queen.
    Storm: X-Men business
    Nehzno: Yes, Storm.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-11-2020 at 05:51 PM.

  10. #100
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    They made mutants very OP, and they all became the Dark Phoenix. The problem was that they never when through a "green" Phoenix stage to show their corruption with power. It didn't make sense.
    Point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    IIRC...it is because his father is an outsider (Russian). And I do like that even though common Wakandans treat him poorly....T'Challa himself has treated him with respect.
    Ah, that's something, at least.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I'd like to see it. One of the reasons I loved the original Alpha Flight, New Warriors and Guardians of the Galaxy series is because they featured several mutants.
    Yeah. If mutants are indeed part of the world, then let them be free to be part of the world.

    It's no surprise to me that the best story we've gotten for 'Berto, for instance, has been in an Avengers book, far from his usual peers. (Heck, the last time Beast wasn't a garbage-fire of a character, he was an Avenger, too!)

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Avengers Vs. X-Men, when Namor, in the throes of Phoenix Force-induced psychosis, flooded Wakanda as revenge for sheltering the Avengers, who had held a mutant student (Transonic, I believe) prisoner. Oh, and Nezhno/Gentle's backstory casts Wakandan society in a pretty negative light as well, though whether it's on account of him being a mutant or being born with an outsider father varies.
    N'Kano didn't get any grief in Wakanda for being a mutant, only when people thought he was sleep with Queen Divine Justice and he was a commoner.

  13. #103
    Fantastic Member Alpha to Omega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I chalk that alongside Reed Richards, T'Challa and Iron Man being a-holes who don't put their inventions on the market, or Thor and Asgardians not curing hunger by ending drought for good.
    Thor once tried to give Earth a free, clean energy source and a terrorist (who happened to be a mutant) decided to blow it up. He also gave away magical cures to diseases and ended droughts and the U.N. responded by nuking him and then attempting to destroy Asgard (with the resulting destruction of New York City being considered an acceptable loss).

    And IIRC one of the explanations given as to why Reed doesn't put most of his inventions on the market is because they're dangerous in the wrong hands. Even something as innocuous as unstable molecule clothing resulted in a threat that could've killed millions when a clothing company stole a sample and tried to copy it.

  14. #104
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I want to see mutants treated as individuals with minds of their own as opposed to a pack of sycophants who jump on board when mass murderers like Apocalypse are treated as leaders and heroes.
    ....Not making any sense tbh.

    The mutants are fine and the best place they've ever been.

  15. #105
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's the problem, they're all mutants. Immigration is about everyone, not a select group.
    How on Earth is it a problem when mutants are being hunted and abused?

    Of course they don't want humans on their island as of now, they were on the brink of extinction not too long ago.

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