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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha to Omega View Post
    Thor once tried to give Earth a free, clean energy source and a terrorist (who happened to be a mutant) decided to blow it up. He also gave away magical cures to diseases and ended droughts and the U.N. responded by nuking him and then attempting to destroy Asgard (with the resulting destruction of New York City being considered an acceptable loss).

    And IIRC one of the explanations given as to why Reed doesn't put most of his inventions on the market is because they're dangerous in the wrong hands. Even something as innocuous as unstable molecule clothing resulted in a threat that could've killed millions when a clothing company stole a sample and tried to copy it.
    I think Reed is also being paid NOT to complete in the market so that he does not put out a superior product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    ....Not making any sense tbh.

    The mutants are fine and the best place they've ever been.
    Ask Mystique how that is working out...promised the resurrection of the woman she loves...and then told it won't happen because she just needs to do a little more for them. I am really hoping she is the one to bring the system down.

  2. #107
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I think Reed is also being paid NOT to complete in the market so that he does not put out a superior product.



    Ask Mystique how that is working out...promised the resurrection of the woman she loves...and then told it won't happen because she just needs to do a little more for them. I am really hoping she is the one to bring the system down.

    A minor conflict within the community doesn't change anything I said previously....

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    How on Earth is it a problem when mutants are being hunted and abused?

    Of course they don't want humans on their island as of now, they were on the brink of extinction not too long ago.
    Because immigration is good and judging people by their race is wrong. Human bigots are bad because they're bigots, not because they're human and they are far more races on Marvel Earth than humans and mutants and none of them are welcome. The X-men are supposed to be inclusive, that's the opposite. They're not on the brink on extinction any longer, they have their own nation now, they're immortal and they're fully in control of that space. Krkaoa will never make any progress if it's only concern with about injustices of the past from the worst, it's also hypocritical when they open their arms to mutants who do that sort of destruction to their own fellow mutants. Given how the last few years immigration in our world has been demonised and tainted by racists at the highest level of government it's baffling to hear this.

  4. #109
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Because immigration is good and judging people by their race is wrong. Human bigots are bad because they're bigots, not because they're human and they are far more races on Marvel Earth than humans and mutants and none of them are welcome. The X-men are supposed to be inclusive, that's the opposite. They're not on the brink on extinction any longer, they have their own nation now, they're immortal and they're fully in control of that space. Krkaoa will never make any progress if it's only concern with about injustices of the past from the worst, it's also hypocritical when they open their arms to mutants who do that sort of destruction to their own fellow mutants. Given how the last few years immigration in our world has been demonised and tainted by racists at the highest level of government it's baffling to hear this.
    The x-men are inclusive as far as the diverse and different types of Mutants exist in their ranks, they ARE NOT obligated to cater to humans who have beaten down on them, and humans who have WATCHED them get beaten down on so you're still not making sense and it seems you're looking for any reason to nail them as xenophobic. If a certain country does not want certain people in their land for security purposes....there's nothing wrong with that.

    'immigration is good'.

    TO YOU.
    They don't want it and there's nothing wrong with the freedom to only want their kind on their holy-land.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    The x-men are inclusive as far as the diverse and different types of Mutants exist in their ranks, they ARE NOT obligated to cater to humans who have beaten down on them, and humans who have WATCHED them get beaten down on so you're still not making sense and it seems you're looking for any reason to nail them as xenophobic.
    This is why it's not inclusive, the measurement of trust only extends to mutants. Not every human did that and many have helped them and supported mutants. Xenophobic is the good description of what Krakoa is doing. It's why Marvel outside the X-line is alienated by them, and really should have a bigger impact rather than being ignored by other titles. They'd rather except Sebastian Shaw over T'Challa, when they didn't have to choose between them based on what race they belong to. They're a nation in Marvel, which has certain obligations and responsibilities and they're failing them but are ready with excuses to normalise it. Xavier's not even protecting his own citizens, Domino got her memories modified against her consent and Apocalypse physically abused Rogue in Excalibur and Xavier knew all about this and let it go. He is in full control of Cerebro.

    If a certain country does not want certain people in their land for security purposes....there's nothing wrong with that.
    It's not certain people, it's about excluding a race and the thing is it's not just humanity it's everyone else.

    'immigration is good'.

    TO YOU.
    They don't want it and there's nothing wrong with the freedom to only want their kind on their holy-land.
    That's numerous things wrong with this stance. They don't want T'Challa, Kamala Khan, Namorita, Sam Alexander, Ben Grimm, Monica Rambeau or Peter Parker to live there because of that species they belong to. It's a isolationist policy which is controversial when Attilan, Atlantis and Wakanda does it. The Black Panther movie explored why this is wrong in its plot.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Because immigration is good and judging people by their race is wrong. Human bigots are bad because they're bigots, not because they're human and they are far more races on Marvel Earth than humans and mutants and none of them are welcome. The X-men are supposed to be inclusive, that's the opposite. They're not on the brink on extinction any longer, they have their own nation now, they're immortal and they're fully in control of that space. Krkaoa will never make any progress if it's only concern with about injustices of the past from the worst, it's also hypocritical when they open their arms to mutants who do that sort of destruction to their own fellow mutants. Given how the last few years immigration in our world has been demonised and tainted by racists at the highest level of government it's baffling to hear this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    The x-men are inclusive as far as the diverse and different types of Mutants exist in their ranks, they ARE NOT obligated to cater to humans who have beaten down on them, and humans who have WATCHED them get beaten down on so you're still not making sense and it seems you're looking for any reason to nail them as xenophobic. If a certain country does not want certain people in their land for security purposes....there's nothing wrong with that.

    'immigration is good'.

    TO YOU.
    They don't want it and there's nothing wrong with the freedom to only want their kind on their holy-land.
    The real issue isn't Krakoa's immigration restrictions...it is their immigration hypocrisy. While they restrict immigration to their island they come and go as they please all over the world thru their mutant only gates. With out so much as a custom's declaration.

    I would love to see a group of mutants come through the NYC gate into an enclosed space...like those concrete canvas tents...with one customs guy sitting at a desk. To add to their confusion the customs guy asks for ID and when they don't produce it he tells them to go back. Krakoa wants to be treated like any other nation they will be...and are expected to follow the law when entering the country.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is why it's not inclusive, the measurement of trust only extends to mutants. Not every human did that and many have helped them and supported mutants. Xenophobic is the good description of what Krakoa is doing. It's why Marvel outside the X-line is alienated by them, and really should have a bigger impact rather than being ignored by other titles. They'd rather except Sebastian Shaw over T'Challa, when they didn't have to choose between them based on what race they belong to. They're a nation in Marvel, which has certain obligations and responsibilities and they're failing them but are ready with excuses to normalise it. Xavier's not even protecting his own citizens, Domino got her memories modified against her consent and Apocalypse physically abused Rogue in Excalibur and Xavier knew all about this and let it go. He is in full control of Cerebro.



    It's not certain people, it's about excluding a race and the thing is it's not just humanity it's everyone else.



    That's numerous things wrong with this stance. They don't want T'Challa, Kamala Khan, Namorita, Sam Alexander, Ben Grimm, Monica Rambeau or Peter Parker to live there because of that species they belong to. It's a isolationist policy which is controversial when Attilan, Atlantis and Wakanda does it. The Black Panther movie explored why this is wrong in its plot.
    they have 99 % of the planet to live in, this is literaly the definition of entitlement when a group is pushed out of spaces and creates their own, then the same people that expelled them become ofended because THEY CAN'T HAVE THIS ONE THING CATTERED TO THEM.
    Krakoa isnt for humans or those heroes because they dont NEED IT, they can live ANYWHERE WITOUT THE DANGERS MUTANTS SUFFER, they have new jersey, new york, the entire united states, the american continent.
    Mutants ONLY have krakoa, they NEED to protect one another because no one else obviously will.

    Im pretty sure even in the real world rich people have more private propriety and islands a normal person can't get into than the entire mass of krakoa wich is very small island, an tiny island without even a million citizens.

    Humans DON'T NEED KRAKOA and their "immigration" can easly become colonization or gentrification, as it happens in the real world, like Hawai, or even genocide since humans have already caused a terrorist atack.

    Once again I share this because you are missing the point.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-11-2020 at 09:07 PM.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The real issue isn't Krakoa's immigration restrictions...it is their immigration hypocrisy. While they restrict immigration to their island they come and go as they please all over the world thru their mutant only gates. With out so much as a custom's declaration.

    I would love to see a group of mutants come through the NYC gate into an enclosed space...like those concrete canvas tents...with one customs guy sitting at a desk. To add to their confusion the customs guy asks for ID and when they don't produce it he tells them to go back. Krakoa wants to be treated like any other nation they will be...and are expected to follow the law when entering the country.
    that's a fair point, it be interesting to see.

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha to Omega View Post
    Thor once tried to give Earth a free, clean energy source and a terrorist (who happened to be a mutant) decided to blow it up.
    Because we all know that terrorism blowing stuff up in real life actually halts and changes stuff.

    He also gave away magical cures to diseases and ended droughts and the U.N. responded by nuking him and then attempting to destroy Asgard (with the resulting destruction of New York City being considered an acceptable loss).
    So Asgard should be allies with Krakoa, and offer diplomatic recognition and engage in trade deals?

    Anyway, as Blind Wedjat said so well, the reason why the Avengers and others don't do anything with the X-Men is because of Doylist reasons and the comics shared universe is not built to answer these questions (owing to being status-quo).

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    they have 99 % of the planet to live in, this is literaly the definition of entitlement when a group is pushed out of spaces and creates their own, then the same people that expelled them become ofended because THEY CAN'T HAVE THIS ONE THING CATTERED TO THEM.
    Krakoa isnt for humans or those heroes because they dont NEED IT, they can live ANYWHERE WITOUT THE DANGERS MUTANTS SUFFER, they have new jersey, new york, the entire united states, the american continent.
    Mutants ONLY have krakoa, they NEED to protect one another because no one else obviously will.

    Im pretty sure even in the real world rich people have more private propriety and islands a normal person can't get into than the entire mass of krakoa wich is very small island, an tiny island without even a million citizens.

    Humans DON'T NEED KRAKOA and their "immigration" can easly become colonization or gentrification, as it happens in the real world, like Hawai, or even genocide since humans have already caused a terrorist atack.

    Once again I share this because you are missing the point.
    Agreed. And by the way that cartoon is what happened when the Pilgrims and Columbus landed at the New World. Nobody would ever want those kind of immigrants.

    To add to this, some more points to consider:

    A) Immigration in the real-world is a matter of supply and demand. So far there don't seem to be significant number of humans wanting to immigrate to Krakoa. There aren't jobs that only immigrants can fill. So the question is moot.

    B) Krakoa is a person first and a land second. Krakoa has to consent to allow humans to settle there.

    C) Krakoa siphons psychic energy of all its inhabitants. It does this to mutants living there as part of an agreement hashed out by it, Doug, Xavier and the QC and all mutants residing there know what's up. It's not clear if Krakoa could even be habitable to humans.

  11. #116
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is why it's not inclusive, the measurement of trust only extends to mutants. Not every human did that and many have helped them and supported mutants. Xenophobic is the good description of what Krakoa is doing. It's why Marvel outside the X-line is alienated by them, and really should have a bigger impact rather than being ignored by other titles. They'd rather except Sebastian Shaw over T'Challa, when they didn't have to choose between them based on what race they belong to. They're a nation in Marvel, which has certain obligations and responsibilities and they're failing them but are ready with excuses to normalise it. Xavier's not even protecting his own citizens, Domino got her memories modified against her consent and Apocalypse physically abused Rogue in Excalibur and Xavier knew all about this and let it go. He is in full control of Cerebro.



    It's not certain people, it's about excluding a race and the thing is it's not just humanity it's everyone else.



    That's numerous things wrong with this stance. They don't want T'Challa, Kamala Khan, Namorita, Sam Alexander, Ben Grimm, Monica Rambeau or Peter Parker to live there because of that species they belong to. It's a isolationist policy which is controversial when Attilan, Atlantis and Wakanda does it. The Black Panther movie explored why this is wrong in its plot.

    It's their right to be isolationist after all they have been through.
    Killed, destroyed, picked apart, cured away.

    Mutants HAVE that right.

  12. #117
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    they have 99 % of the planet to live in, this is literaly the definition of entitlement when a group is pushed out of spaces and creates their own, then the same people that expelled them become ofended because THEY CAN'T HAVE THIS ONE THING CATTERED TO THEM.
    Krakoa isnt for humans or those heroes because they dont NEED IT, they can live ANYWHERE WITOUT THE DANGERS MUTANTS SUFFER, they have new jersey, new york, the entire united states, the american continent.
    Mutants ONLY have krakoa, they NEED to protect one another because no one else obviously will.

    Im pretty sure even in the real world rich people have more private propriety and islands a normal person can't get into than the entire mass of krakoa wich is very small island, an tiny island without even a million citizens.

    Humans DON'T NEED KRAKOA and their "immigration" can easly become colonization or gentrification, as it happens in the real world, like Hawai, or even genocide since humans have already caused a terrorist atack.

    Once again I share this because you are missing the point.

    Bingo.

    I tend to think those that disagree with mutants finally a place to call their own have DEEPER issues.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Considering how Susan Storm is a Grade-A Karen who acts like she owns Yancy Street, I am not sure if that's the best flex.



    Well the current run on Krakoa does expand into non-mutant issues like ecology and environmentalism (the X-gene and mutantkind being that they are organic conduits of power are essentially natural selection's last defense against the anthroposcene world that's gutting the planet for its resources with the ultimate aim of creating a cold lifeless singularity), and also economic issues like capitalism and neoliberalism (in X-Men #4 with Hickman/Yu in that classic issue with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Magneto rocks a white suit, and Apocalypse looks Dr. Manhattan-ish in a double-breasted suit).

    One thing about the X-Men and the minority metaphor is that the X-Men's heyday in discussing these issues happened in the 70s and 80s when you had censorship and industry taboos about dealing with a lot of hot-button issues. The X-Men became the place to deal with and talk of those issues...but in the last two decades where you have Kamala Khan and Miles voicing the immigrant and hyphenated community experience, where Black Panther and its Afrofuturism has taken off, as has Jessica Jones and Luke Cage...the X-Men no longer hve monopoly to discuss those issues or be the locus for representating that.

    Hickman's run acknowledges that and he has to foreground some other element to redefine mutants within the Marvel Universe. And the one he hit upon, the one which explains why X-men are hated while FF and Avengers are liked is that the former represent natural selection and organic transhumanism, while the latter are essentially, useful idiots for our machine overlords. It's bold, it's provocative, and the story becomes about the environment. The X-Men represent the environment, the earth, the biosphere and that's something more primal and basic.

    Hickman said that the X-Men need to constantly evolve and change, unlike other Marvel titles where (Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) you have some consistency. The X-Men ultimately are intended to challenge the idea of normal and provide a sense of otherness. So the current X-Men run has an entire society concieved and executed in a way different from how humans have organized theirs, where they are basically on the way of developing their own religion, their own language, their own science (like that sequence where they use mutant powers to basically be their own NASA and Houston using just powers). It's even gotten into expanding and challenging the family structure so you have Jean-Scott-Logan-Emma in a poly relationship, overturning monogamous norms and so on.
    Emma Frost is a Karen not Sue.

  14. #119
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I would love to see more interactiong between the X-men and the rest of the MU thereīs a lot of potential there.

    On the case of Krakoa and inmigration I donīt see the big deal honestly

    1.- The X-men are part of the UN with all that it entails, share UN programs, meetings, etc.
    2.- Those portals are embassies thatīs why they are around the world, Krakoa only puts those on countries that have legally accepted them just like any other embassy in the RW.
    3.- Humans are welcome and can visit those embassies, they only need a special permission or a mutant with them same when they visit Krakoa, this is just a complex and fictional way of saying they need a visa to go to Krakoa.
    4.- Human family of mutants are welcome to live on Krakoa permanently or as a visitor, no one will look them twice if they do.

    Considering this I think that as fictional countries on the MU go Krakoa is a lot more open to the world than Attilan, Atlantis or Wakanda have been even with their leadership being actual members of superhero groups, ironically I think only Latveria would be more open than them despite not being an actual ally of the Avengers or the Fantastic Four. Yet I am not seeing the inhumans, wakandans or Atlanteans being called isolationist because itīs understood that their country works that way and just like Krakoa they also have reasons for having those rules.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 07-11-2020 at 11:12 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  15. #120
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    why cant humans come visit atlantis, guys
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

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