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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The real issue isn't Krakoa's immigration restrictions...it is their immigration hypocrisy. While they restrict immigration to their island they come and go as they please all over the world thru their mutant only gates. With out so much as a custom's declaration.

    I would love to see a group of mutants come through the NYC gate into an enclosed space...like those concrete canvas tents...with one customs guy sitting at a desk. To add to their confusion the customs guy asks for ID and when they don't produce it he tells them to go back. Krakoa wants to be treated like any other nation they will be...and are expected to follow the law when entering the country.
    Yeah that's my only problem with the immigration thing too. It will be interesting to see if countries border off the portals and set up immigration checkpoints.
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  2. #122
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Yeah that's my only problem with the immigration thing too. It will be interesting to see if countries border off the portals and set up immigration checkpoints.
    That actually would be interesting personally I think those checkpoints already exist otherwise those countries would not have agreed to allow Krakoa the use of those portals on their territory, acording to the UN rules, the comics just have yet to show those. Also if that´s the case given Krakoa is a country recognized by the UN all Krakoa citizens must also have identifications, in the books there have been some scenes of mutants going outside for shopping which is not unusual in real world ppl close to borders often do that as well.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 07-11-2020 at 11:47 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The point is that Reed and Susan have been raising their kid by basically passing him off as a human mutate all the while deferring the issue of him being a mutant for "tomorrow, tomorrow, and never today". They have dodged the issue under the pretense and arrogance that their celebrity and privilege will make sure that Franklin never has to deal with issues of being a mutant.

    The X-Men merely came to give pamphlets and a guided tour of Krakoa to Franklin and instead the minute they arrive, Susan Storm attacks them openly before they speak, say, or do anything...that's total Karen behavior, not different from Amy Cooper at Central Park or those idiots who pulled out guns after seeing black people leave restaurants. Likewise, Susan Storm attacked Magneto first, and that started the fight.

    I happen to like Susan Storm in other stories, but in Zdarsky's miniseries, she is definitely a grade-A Karen, who wants to "speak to the manager of Krakoa".



    The Fantastic Four act as spies, sneaking on sovereign territory. And after they find out that the X-Men didn't kidnap Franklin and Valeria as they wrongly suspected, Ben Grimm says words to the effects of "Ok you guys are innocent but I still don't like you".
    If I were Reed and Sue, I wouldn't want my kid within spitting distance of people who regularly have children die on their watch and frequently get in bed with villains both metaphorically and literally.

  4. #124
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    That´s fair honestly there was no reason for Krakoa to bother with Franklin, marvel probably should have left the Fantastic Four vs X-men title for the crossover because the story was a poorly made confrontation between the two teams and has most of the characters acting OC for no reason in particular and I say this as someone who enjoys reading chip zdarsky work.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Agreed. And by the way that cartoon is what happened when the Pilgrims and Columbus landed at the New World. Nobody would ever want those kind of immigrants.

    To add to this, some more points to consider:

    A) Immigration in the real-world is a matter of supply and demand. So far there don't seem to be significant number of humans wanting to immigrate to Krakoa. There aren't jobs that only immigrants can fill. So the question is moot.
    We don’t rally have a good picture of what the outside world thinks of Krakoa, this is part of the problem and it’s not logical in-universe. And it’s not just about humans. This not being shown isn’t proving a negative as much as there’s a blank which could fit anything in it and that has implications in itself that make me question wether it is in 616 canon at all. It may be but that menas they just don’t show it for whatever reason. People of all nations and ethnicities are curious and visit and live in other nations, Krakoa is sex positive and has a large LGBT community and is a tropical paradise. Just these subjects would make it a popular destination for tourism.

    Krakoa also might have road blocks normal countries don’t. Since the country doesn’t have a tourism industry it wouldn’t have the industries to advertise it, or let them past the portals. Just because it’s not shown in a comic book isn’t proof that it isn’t happening. They’re supposed to be living, breathing people and people do these things both in the real world and in comic books.

    This not being a priority for Krakao isn’t a sign that Krakoa’s right. Krakoa doesn’t even believe in lawyers defending people in the courts, which would impact tourism and immigration negatively if it got out, of course.





    B) Krakoa is a person first and a land second. Krakoa has to consent to allow humans to settle there.
    Krakoa is incredibly racist against non-mutants and the Quiet Council do a horrible job trying to make it more tolerant of other cultures. Since humans and other species can’t do this themselves and since the Quiet Council is the official government it is their responsibility to change Krakoa’s mind, not doing so says more than about Krakoa. It’s an ancient, non-human entity they have no such excuse unless they agree with its beliefs.

    C) Krakoa siphons psychic energy of all its inhabitants. It does this to mutants living there as part of an agreement hashed out by it, Doug, Xavier and the QC and all mutants residing there know what's up. It's not clear if Krakoa could even be habitable to humans.
    Again, they should make it a priority to figure out rather than doing nothing. Krakao and Doug are in the Quiet Council, there’s no reason they should stop talking about subjects with them.

    Ferro had a well meaning post, but misses how this leads into xenophobia. Krakao is a nation state, the mutants there are in full control. They’re a First World Nation, they control the government and this isn’t a choice between mutants or humanity (or any other race, something which unspoken yet engaged in these topics) over political space. And this overlooks the fact not every human is a monster trying to take over or destroy mutant kind while Krkoa puts genuine mutant, and non-mutant (Sinister), monsters in the highest ranks of government and lets them run free. And they will work with humanity, except we’ve seen this includes cartels. And HYDRA, and Norman Osborn in the recent past, Selene is working with him right now in Captain America to conquer the American government.

    This view is in crisis mode, as if the X-men are still at the mansion or they’re still on the reservation in Utopia. Those times are lost past, the Krakoa status quo has them governing the whole nation. They are the majority, and they don’t have lose that to have immigration. Magneto’s Genosha allowed humans to be there, and had high ranking roles in government. It had a human ambassador, for instance.

    This isn’t about rich white people, in the real world they don’t even form the majority of white people and there are numerous rich white mutants (Xavier, Emma Frost, Shaw, Selene – the latter have manipulated and murdered mutants. It’s not a good analogy, since the stance isn’t about being against white people or rich white people it’s about people as a species. It no longer is about what certain bad people did it’s about what species they are. This is why that practice is wrong, not because it’s done to people you don't like.

    Krakoa is an island that grows.

    Diversity is good, and so is immigration. Krakoa is able to protect itself by creating laws to stop things like gentrification. That’s trivial with their government.

    This is about humanity just coming in to gobble Krakoa up, that does a disservice to the good humans in it and the message is that no human is good – how “good” a person is doesn’t matter when they’re judged by what race they are. The real world has had many nations do this with horrifying results. This is the history where judging people by their race leads.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

    The only reason Krakao doesn’t have Jim Crow laws, though they’re getting there with making non-mutants second class citizens due to the island entity’s racism is that they don’t allow any of these groups to visit or live there.

    This is why many people have been taken aback by Hickman’s X-men embraces these sorts of ideals, rather than inclusivity and equal rights.

    Krakoa doesn’t need humans help with colonisation, they’re getting there on their own.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 07-12-2020 at 01:12 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    That´s fair honestly there was no reason for Krakoa to bother with Franklin, marvel probably should have left the Fantastic Four vs X-men title for the crossover because the story was a poorly made confrontation between the two teams and has most of the characters acting OC for no reason in particular and I say this as someone who enjoys reading chip zdarsky work.
    Yeah, that's kinda my thought on it. Between Proteus and Mad Jim Jaspers, as well as any others we haven't seen or had mentioned (like Wiccan), it's not like they are hurting for reality manipulators. (And, thanks to the nature of the resurrection protocols, if they are ever in dire need of more, they can just pump out a dozen more Proteus' or something, although that's a whole 'nuther can of worms...)

    Sending Franklin a telepathic heads-up that 'Krakoa is for all mutants' and he's welcome to come by for a visit, if his parents don't mind, should have been adequate.

    But hey, gotta have drama, and Quiet Council peeps like Sinister were subtly pushing for him to get more actively recruited, because of their own agendas.

    It's also true that the X-peeps, in general, have zero idea what it's like to have a family like Franklin's. Some were hated by their parents, some abandoned (oh, hi Mystique, didn't see you there, worst... mom... ever), some orphaned (and some orphaned as a result of the fallout of their mutant lives, such as Piotr and Jean), all very much 'found family' types. Even the ones still on speaking terms with their surviving family members don't always have the best history with them (Bobby).

    So it isn't a terrible surprise that people like Magneto or Charles, who have only fleeting memories of having been hatched from eggs back in the Cretaceous era or whatever, and the weirdest possible concepts of family since then (did I know that teen Wanda was or was not my daughter when I made her do a sexy lapdance for Toad and me? I don't even remember, and gosh, 'it was a different time' I guess...), would totally misread how Sue would react.
    Last edited by Sutekh; 07-12-2020 at 01:33 AM.

  7. #127
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, that's kinda my thought on it. Between Proteus and Mad Jim Jaspers, as well as any others we haven't seen or had mentioned (like Wiccan), it's not like they are hurting for reality manipulators. (And, thanks to the nature of the resurrection protocols, if they are ever in dire need of more, they can just pump out a dozen more Proteus' or something, although that's a whole 'nuther can of worms...)

    Sending Franklin a telepathic heads-up that 'Krakoa is for all mutants' and he's welcome to come by for a visit, if his parents don't mind, should have been adequate.
    Agreed

    But hey, gotta have drama, and Quiet Council peeps like Sinister were subtly pushing for him to get more actively recruited, because of their own agendas.
    Marvel gotta have crossovers as well

    It's also true that the X-peeps, in general, have zero idea what it's like to have a family like Franklin's. Some were hated by their parents, some abandoned (oh, hi Mystique, didn't see you there, worst... mom... ever), some orphaned (and some orphaned as a result of the fallout of their mutant lives, such as Piotr and Jean), all very much 'found family' types. Even the ones still on speaking terms with their surviving family members don't always have the best history with them (Bobby).
    Well I don´t think that´s the case with all of them Jean and Storm have fond memories of their family, same with Betsy, Nightcrawler had a great adoptive family, Cyclops does get along with Corsair maybe he should be angrier at him for not being there when he was younger but he chooses to enjoy the moments they had together, Colossus and Magik had a great family back in Russia, Havok and Lorna had great adoptive families,most of the new mutants as well, Beak wanted to stay and live with his father than go to Krakoa because he wanted to stay with him while he was sick until his father died, etc. They do have a clear image of what a family is supposed to be.

    So it isn't a terrible surprise that people like Magneto or Charles, who have only fleeting memories of having been hatched from eggs back in the Cretaceous era or whatever, and the weirdest possible concepts of family since then (did I know that teen Wanda was or was not my daughter when I made her do a sexy lapdance for Toad and me? I don't even remember, and gosh, 'it was a different time' I guess...), would totally misread how Sue would react.
    They are not that old and this is when the OCNESS comes because Xavier despite coming from a broken home knew well enough what a family is to teach that to all his students, the only time he had a bad interest in Franklin it wasn´t him, it was Onslaught, to think Xavier is the same as Onslaught would be as saying that Sue is the same as malice. Magneto just didn´t seem to have an oppinion on Franklin one way or the other and had even worked with the FF in the past without problem.

    Magneto actually had a great family both as a child and as an adult, the fact he tragically lost those two doesn´t mean he doesn´t know how a family is supposed to be, that situation with Wanda may be the reason why after he began his redemption arc with the X-men he keep to himself and didn´t reach to Wanda or Pietro until they did for a while back in the 80´s he has been shown to be profoundly sorry for having been such a toxic influence on them when they were teenagers even if he was kind on insane at the time. HoM just made things a lot worse and Axis was the coup de grace he cares but even if he still believes he´s their father, he thinks they are better off without him.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  8. #128
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Emma Frost is a Karen not Sue.
    Emma Frost is the manager Karens like Susan ask to speak to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If I were Reed and Sue, I wouldn't want my kid within spitting distance of people who regularly have children die on their watch...
    They now have resurrection protocols, my dude. If I were a parent and a school had a foolproof way of bringing my kid back from any dumb thing it gets into, any chance accident and so on...I'd sign up there asap.

    ...and frequently get in bed with villains both metaphorically and literally.
    How very 45 of you. Got to say the attitude people here display to the X-Men is incredibly xenophobic and toxic and if translated to the real world, would not be pretty.

    And as for getting in bed with villains...Franklin's mom made eyes with Namor all the time, his sister is Victor von Doom's god-daughter, his Dad is a grade-A douche who thinks his uncle should have ratted out his friends to McCarthy and was also the builder of Gulag in the Negative Zone during Civil War. And let's not get into how Reed put in tech that nullified his son's mutant signature all without his permission and consent and humiliated him publicly in Zdarsky's first issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It may be but that menas they just don’t show it for whatever reason. People of all nations and ethnicities are curious and visit and live in other nations, Krakoa is sex positive and has a large LGBT community and is a tropical paradise. Just these subjects would make it a popular destination for tourism.
    Tourism is not the same as immigration. The primary reasons for immigration are largely a) Economic (i.e. opportunities, career and so on), b) Political or Religious Persecution. It's quite expensive to move from the place you are born to somewhere else. And people who do so, weight stuff in the balance (what we can do here, and what we can get done there).

    IF there's no jobs or opportunities available at Krakoa, there's not a reason to presume that many immigrants want to go to Krakoa. There's no labor shortage in Krakoa, no demand for skilled workers from outside so there's no incentives for Krakoa to promote immigration.

    Immigration in Western Europe and USA is a major problem because those countries need immigrants and attract immigrants but generally treat them badly and move goalposts to keep them from becoming full citizens or a part of the community. Their systems and socieites exploit immigrants as a class of people, siphoning their skills and labor vampirically and in a lot of cases, not leaving them with much in the way of love or gratitude. Those real world issues inspire the immigration discourse here but that's not easily translatable or allegorically movable to any other fictional place.

    Again, people need to realize that there are other countries and other places than America, and different experiences across the board.

    Magneto’s Genosha allowed humans to be there, and had high ranking roles in government. It had a human ambassador, for instance.
    And look what happened to Genosha.

    This is the history where judging people by their race leads.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
    Not remotely appliclable to Krakoa. Apartheid was enforced by descendants of settlers, invaders, colonizers (i.e. the wrong kind of immigrant) over the majority black population who are native to that land...that's not even remotely like Krakoa. Similar thing with Jim Crow, which was a result of slavery, which doesn't exist in Krakoa.

    This is why many people have been taken aback by Hickman’s X-men embraces these sorts of ideals, rather than inclusivity and equal rights.
    The hypocrisy and bad faith is astounding. People started this thread to essentially s--ttalk the X-Men behind the backs of the X-Men Board, and then indulge right throughout with mutant-bashing and all the while blather about inclusivity and equal rights without even the slightest consideration for the point of view promulgated in Hickman's run.

  9. #129
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Should mutants have more of a presence outside the X-Books?

    At the beginning, the mutants have been created because the authors were tired to imagine an origin for the super-powers of their super-beings…
    Now, years and years after using mutants in comics… “mutant” means “mutant problem” and it has an “political angle”.

    So, unless addressing this “problem”… I don’t see the point in using a mutant in a fiction instead of a “simple, uncontroversial super-being”… I see it as something superfluous and it could ‘pollute’ the subject of the story.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Emma Frost is the manager Karens like Susan ask to speak to.
    Emma Frost is an obnoxious, entitled white woman who never misses an opportunity to lord her privilege over others and at one point hi-jacked a black woman's body for to have sex with her boss in it. I won't even get into the mental and even physical abuse she's inflicted on kids within her care even when she was a "hero" or how her relationship with Scott started with her taking advantage of his mental trauma.


    They now have resurrection protocols, my dude. If I were a parent and a school had a foolproof way of bringing my kid back from any dumb thing it gets into, any chance accident and so on...I'd sign up there asap.
    No parent should want their kid anywhere near a place where they could be killed period. That's not even getting into all the screwy stuff that can happen from being killed and resurrected and the affects this could have on a freaking teenager.


    How very 45 of you. Got to say the attitude people here display to the X-Men is incredibly xenophobic and toxic and if translated to the real world, would not be pretty.
    The attitude of judging them for child endangerment and associating with untrustworthy parties? You may want to look up what the word xenophobia actually is.

    And as for getting in bed with villains...Franklin's mom made eyes with Namor all the time, [/QUOTE]

    Hasn't done that as of recent and Sue was able to keep it in her pants with Namor unlike the X-Men and their villains.


    his sister is Victor von Doom's god-daughter,
    I thought Doom wasn't a villain. And the Four are nowhere nears as lenient with him as the X-Men are with their villains. He's back to being their enemy anyway.

    his Dad is a grade-A douche who thinks his uncle should have ratted out his friends to McCarthy and was also the builder of Gulag in the Negative Zone during Civil War. And let's not get into how Reed put in tech that nullified his son's mutant signature all without his permission and consent and humiliated him publicly in Zdarsky's first issue.
    Oh, I see, it's okay when the X-Men violate human rights but no one else.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    N'Kano didn't get any grief in Wakanda for being a mutant, only when people thought he was sleep with Queen Divine Justice and he was a commoner.
    N’Kano is a mutate, not a mutant. He didn’t get his powers from an X-gene, but after exposure to energized vibranium. In Wakanda there are a handful of people who develop superpowers after exposure to vibranium, so he doesn’t count. We’ve only met two Wakandan mutants and their experiences in their kingdom have asterisks next to them.

    One of them was a socially awkward mutant hacker who hid many aspects of his identity so we don’t know how he was treated since no one knew he was a mutant. Gentle, it changes from story to story whether he’s hated because he’s a mutant or half-foreigner. Most recently in X-Men Red, it seems to be a mix of both since his mother calls him non-Wakandan and non-human. So yea there’s definitely some at the X-Office going out of their way to paint Wakanda in a negative light as far as mutants are concerned. That’s why I don’t care to see the two franchises interact and why T’Challa needs to break things off with Storm as soon as the Coates run ends.

  12. #132
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hasn't done that as of recent...
    Same with Magneto and Emma, they haven't done anything bad recently. But let's hold on to our double standards.


    I thought Doom wasn't a villain. And the Four are nowhere nears as lenient with him as the X-Men are with their villains. He's back to being their enemy anyway.
    The Fantastic Four in the past sponsored a coup that toppled Doom and put in place an oppressive tyrant worse than Victor's, and then they helped put Doom back on the throne of Latveria.

    The fact is in any long-running franchise, heroes develop an understanding with long-running villains.

    The FF have absolutely no ground to judge the X-Men. None at all.

    Any attempt to do so is pure hypocrisy and double standard.

  13. #133
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Xavier: Welcome to Mutant Island! We've got an apartment all set up for you right between Mutant Hitler and Mutant Charles Manson. Mutant Mengele is just down the hall. Don't worry. They promised not to do anything evil.

    Mutant Hitler: I didn't promise that!
    Mutant Manson: I'm doing evil things right now!

    Xavier: Well, I'm disappointed in both of you. Anyway, hope you enjoy your stay, new guy.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Xavier: Welcome to Mutant Island! We've got an apartment all set up for you right between Mutant Hitler and Mutant Charles Manson. Mutant Mengele is just down the hall. Don't worry. They promised not to do anything evil.

    Mutant Hitler: I didn't promise that!
    Mutant Manson: I'm doing evil things right now!

    Xavier: Well, I'm disappointed in both of you. Anyway, hope you enjoy your stay, new guy.
    Luke Every Word is Wrong.jpg

    Y'all continue being brave talking smack about the X-Men outside their boards.

  15. #135
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Okay, so technically they're not set up in apartments. I'll give you that.

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