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  1. #136
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Emma Frost is the manager Karens like Susan ask to speak to.
    I have to strongly disagree with you on the use of the Karen label on Sue. It has taken on a highly toxic meaning of late esp in reference on incidents seen during the Black Lives Matter. It's not just someone complaining to manager at Target. Let's retire this when using it to describe Sue. I despise it.

    And as for Emma Frost, she is from a privileged upbringing and a spoiled woman child who killed a pony to manipulate someone. Let's not elevate her of all people above Sue. And I've been to the X-boards to express this opinion about it months ago.

  2. #137
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    Krakoa is incredibly racist against non-mutants
    Ill take this statement seriously when krakoa starts oppeessing humankind.

  3. #138
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Okay, so technically they're not set up in apartments. I'll give you that.
    Thanks. Much appreciated.



    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    And as for Emma Frost, she is from a privileged upbringing and a spoiled woman child who killed a pony to manipulate someone. Let's not elevate her of all people above Sue.
    Okay, but at the same time, we should not use her past continuity actions as a cudgel to deflect criticism from Susan's behavior in Zdarsky's miniseries. Emma Frost hasn't done anything near the same scale of jerkishness since Joss Whedon's run, which is about 2004, so 16 years back, greater than the distance between Fantastic Four #1(1961) and Wolverine's first apperance in Incredible Hulk #180 (1974), for point of comparison. If we are going to use the past, we can use Reed and Sue's too. In terms of doing shady and dubious things, palling around with villains, dubious taste in costumes (remember Malice and the 4-Shaped boob window?), I think you can find everyone evens out at the end.

    Hickman does write Susan more compassionately and moderately in HOX#1 by comparison. And have no problems with her in that issue at all. And obviously this is an ongoing story so it's too early to call stuff.

    And I've been to the X-boards to express this opinion about it months ago.
    Fair enough. But again the fact is this thread is blatantly a thread devoted to bashing Hickman's X-Men run and made by posters who aren't familiar with the happenings of the run, have a surface knowledge, or are otherwise jealous that after having the thumbs lifted off the scale, X-Men once again prove themselves to be the biggest comics on the market and are vicariously and performatively kvetching about the mutants based on a spurious understanding of the shared universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    Ill take this statement seriously when krakoa starts oppeessing humankind.
    Apparently Krakoa offends humankind simply by virtue of existing.

    "Yet here they come to kill us all, Charles. And all we've done to earn it is promise not to kill them. We even made it a law."
    -- MAGNETO, X-Men (2019) #4, written by Jonathan Hickman.

    Since Krakoa arrived, there have been multiple acts of subterfuge, and attempted assassinations, bad faith, and violation of international norms against Krakoa.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-12-2020 at 09:29 AM.

  4. #139
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Since Krakoa arrived, there have been multiple acts of subterfuge, and attempted assassinations, bad faith, and violation of international norms against Krakoa.
    If Krakoa was just safe haven for mutants set up and run by the X-men and their friends, then yeah, I'd have problems with it. However this is a mutant island with people like Magneto and Apocalypse set up as the heads. I have no problem with people thinking that taking them out now is probabaly a lot safer than waiting until they pull whatever it is their planning, because those guys are never up to any good.

    Of course, at the same time the books, and a certain number of fans, seem to have taken the view that just because some humans (human we're supposed to see as the bad guys) are doing bad thing then ALL humanity must be guilty. (I'm also amused when Magneto talks about how human history is full of humans doing evil things. I keep thinking "You do realize those 'evil people' are you ancestors too, right? Mutants and humans have the same history. You do know that, don't you?

  5. #140
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    If Krakoa was just safe haven for mutants set up and run by the X-men and their friends, then yeah, I'd have problems with it. However this is a mutant island with people like Magneto and Apocalypse set up as the heads. I have no problem with people thinking that taking them out now is probabaly a lot safer than waiting until they pull whatever it is their planning, because those guys are never up to any good.
    First of all, Magneto has been an anti-hero and hero since the end of Morrison's run and the retcon of the Xornetto and before that in the 80s, he was put on trial and exonerated and then became a mentor to the X-men when Xavier "died". Magneto bear in mind saved the lives of all San Franciscans and likewise gave his life trying to stop the Incursions, defending the universe and existence itself at the cost of his life during one of the Time Runs Out tie-ins.

    In the case of Apocalypse, well obviously Krakoa wants to make sure they have all the power they can on their own side and stave off any attempts by bad guys to play mutants against one another. Apocalypse also has a past as a hero (which Hickman introduced in his series), so let's see where it goes. Despite all the crazy stuff he's done, Thor gives Loki numerous chances, Black Bolt same with Maximus, and so on and so forth.

    I don't see how having those two is somehow "time to sharpen the nukes". It makes no sense nor is it especially unprecedented.

    Of course, at the same time the books, and a certain number of fans, seem to have taken the view that just because some humans (human we're supposed to see as the bad guys) are doing bad thing then ALL humanity must be guilty.
    No, the point is there are going to be consequences for constant neglect, abuse, murder, genocide, discrimination, and indifference. That's what people seem to be upset about because it's so rare for fiction to invite the idea of consequence.

    Xavier says it very clearly (emphasis added by me)

    "Humans of the planet Earth... I am the mutant Charles Xavier, and I bring you a message of hope. In the coming days, you will learn of several far-reaching pharmaceutical breakthroughs that have been discovered by mutant scientists. These drugs will extend human life, heal diseases of the mind and will prevent—or cure—most common maladies. Influenza, Alzheimer's, ALS, many cancers...gone. Overnight. These drugs will make life on this planet...better...In the past, they would have been a gift. Something freely given by me—to you—because I believed it would create harmony between our two peoples. That was my dream—harmony—but you have taught me a harsh lesson: That dream was a lie. You see, all I ever wanted was peace between mutants and humans. All I ever wanted was to love you and for you to love us. We wanted to save you—and we did, many times—but in return, all you did was stand by while evil men killed our children. Over 16 million of them.
    So there will be no gift...for you have not earned it.... In return for making our lives better, we will do the same for you. And if you find yourself asking, who are these mutants to think they can dictate terms to us? We are the future. An evolutionary inevitability. The Earth's true inheritors. You closed your eyes last night believing this world would be yours forever. That was your dream. And like mine...it was a lie. Here is the new truth: While you slept, the world changed."
    — Professor X, House of X #6, written by Jonathan Hickman.

    Humanity needs to start earning it.

  6. #141
    Mysterious Telepath Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    Not a large presence, but I'd like to see some crossover. I enjoy the idea of some young mutants join the Champions network of heroes or Manifold's continued presence in Wakanda.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    Ill take this statement seriously when krakoa starts oppeessing humankind.
    Racism doesn't need to be oppressive for something to be considered racist.

  8. #143
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    In all honesty, these days hard no.

    Over the last few years, I've found the majority of X-Characters especially unlikeable. Not even unlikeable in a "I'd like to read them as a antagonist" way.

    Outside of Wolverine, Storm, Jean Grey, Monet St. Croix, Sunspot and Cannonball, I'd like the X-characters too stay wherever they are. The last thing I want is Scott, Beast, X23, Emma Frost or any of those other Canker Sores some view as characters, being propped up by Tony, Steve, Natasha or the others.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerPlay25 View Post
    In all honesty, these days hard no.

    Over the last few years, I've found the majority of X-Characters especially unlikeable. Not even unlikeable in a "I'd like to read them as a antagonist" way.

    Outside of Wolverine, Storm, Jean Grey, Monet St. Croix, Sunspot and Cannonball, I'd like the X-characters too stay wherever they are. The last thing I want is Scott, Beast, X23, Emma Frost or any of those other Canker Sores some view as characters, being propped up by Tony, Steve, Natasha or the others.
    Again...I am not talking X-Men characters specifically...but mutants in general. Even if they are creating new mutant characters to fit the story.

  10. #145
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Outside of Wolverine, Storm, Jean Grey, Monet St. Croix, Sunspot and Cannonball, I'd like the X-characters too stay wherever they are. The last thing I want is Scott, Beast, X23, Emma Frost or any of those other Canker Sores some view as characters, being propped up by Tony, Steve, Natasha or the others.
    I'd actually rather have Beast leave the X-men for the Avengers.

    The X-men comics keep wanting to use him as a morally bankrupt character and he was always a lot of fun as an Avenger.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I'd actually rather have Beast leave the X-men for the Avengers.

    The X-men comics keep wanting to use him as a morally bankrupt character and he was always a lot of fun as an Avenger.
    Which is a complete 180 from his moral outrage at Cyclops from the Phoenix 5 to the extinction team to schism.

    I think it would be interesting for him to go back to his human looking form and join the Avengers....but then some other writer would come along and make him blue and furry again.

  12. #147
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Okay, but at the same time, we should not use her past continuity actions as a cudgel to deflect criticism from Susan's behavior in Zdarsky's miniseries. Emma Frost hasn't done anything near the same scale of jerkishness since Joss Whedon's run, which is about 2004, so 16 years back, greater than the distance between Fantastic Four #1(1961) and Wolverine's first apperance in Incredible Hulk #180 (1974), for point of comparison. If we are going to use the past, we can use Reed and Sue's too. In terms of doing shady and dubious things, palling around with villains, dubious taste in costumes (remember Malice and the 4-Shaped boob window?), I think you can find everyone evens out at the end.

    Hickman does write Susan more compassionately and moderately in HOX#1 by comparison. And have no problems with her in that issue at all. And obviously this is an ongoing story so it's too early to call stuff.
    I can't defend the boob window...surprised that the usually reliable Paul Ryan came up with that one. But then even the stalwart Herb Trimpe's art was corrupted by the Liefeld style. Malice was due to the influence of the Psycho Man but I shouldn't have to mention that to you. Sue wasn't "making eyes" at Namor. She was interested but it was her choice very early on to turn him down. He was the one that didn't accept it. Here's a clue guys....No means No.

    Emma acted pretty jerky when she set Namor in the flooding of flood Wakanda... and that wasn't too long ago.

    Most sports fans base their bets on track records.....and Emma's got the jerkiness covered on that. Sue was not complaining about her soup being cold to the manager.....she was frantic about her missing children. I think we can give her a pass on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post


    Fair enough. But again the fact is this thread is blatantly a thread devoted to bashing Hickman's X-Men run and made by posters who aren't familiar with the happenings of the run, have a surface knowledge, or are otherwise jealous that after having the thumbs lifted off the scale, X-Men once again prove themselves to be the biggest comics on the market and are vicariously and performatively kvetching about the mutants based on a spurious understanding of the shared universe.
    Let's be honest.....the books are selling because of Hickman. Once he leaves, there's no guarantees that it will continue on this renaissance. Same thing happened to the Fantastic Four, which had been long in the doldrums. Now with Slott, it's tanking. The Doctor Doom Solo outsold it back in March. And it doesn't look like Feige is giving the X-Men a big push in the MCU right now. Phase 4 doesn't have anything X-Men related. Most of the rumors are about Doom being introduced (off screen) , possibly in an end credit scene with Black Widow in November. And there have been rumors of about the Fantastic Four with John Kraskinski..he's left some hints that he's interested. All the major stuff had been done with the X-Men. The Dark Phoenix film tanked and it was another poorly conceived version of that arc. Yes, I'm aware that FF had 3 failed films with Fox.....but it was Fox after all.

    And there are a number of people here expressing the desire to see the X-Men and the rest of the MCU interact again. I would like to see that too. The Zdarsky's X-Men /Fantastic Four mini will conclude this month. Quite frankly I find it surprisingly disappointing esp from him. IMO that mini has not brought the fandom together like it should have and is instead igniting the animosity. And it doesn't have to be that way. He's got a big task to accomplish something positive in this last issue. Easy way out.....blame it all on Doom and everyone is happy

  13. #148
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I think it would be interesting for him to go back to his human looking form and join the Avengers....but then some other writer would come along and make him blue and furry again.
    I’m sure Beast wouldn’t mind too…

  14. #149
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    And there are a number of people here expressing the desire to see the X-Men and the rest of the MCU interact again. I would like to see that too. The Zdarsky's X-Men /Fantastic Four mini will conclude this month. Quite frankly I find it surprisingly disappointing esp from him. IMO that mini has not brought the fandom together like it should have and is instead igniting the animosity. And it doesn't have to be that way. He's got a big task to accomplish something positive in this last issue. Easy way out.....blame it all on Doom and everyone is happy
    Yeah, the general consensus seems to be it's not the best written crossover and is just getting to AvX levels of pitting the fandoms against one another.

  15. #150
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    Am I the only one who thinks you can use the X-men/Mutants for the "Damned Scots, They Ruined Scotland" meme by this point.

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