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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Humans Don't need krakoa, they have no necessity or are being wanted on the island, it's not xenophobic when mutants are a in state of preservation and internal growth, its ridiculous to assume they have a responsibility to welcome humanity when the main reason krakoa exists is because humanity DOESN'T welcome them.
    America and europe are enourmous continents that have hundreds of years of history of opression and colonialism that have sucked the rest of the world, hence creating an area where less priveledged people from countries that have suffered for europe/america to grow, move into to get a better life.
    It also posseses the best infrastructure, education, health care for humans.
    KRAKOA ISNT EVEN ON THE 1 MILLION CITIZENS, its TINY, it produces it's own resources, IT'S MADE FOR MUTANTS with their own needs, quirks and atributes, it wasnt stolen or colonized, its major economical affection is their new type of medicine that they even employ huamn scientists to colaborate with, you cannot compare an TINY ISLAND to TWO CONTINENTS, it makes your argument seem petty and unimformed
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-12-2020 at 08:33 PM.

  2. #182
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The reason you do not see non-mutants heroes defending and speaking out for mutants is an out of universe thing...it is a writer and editor choice to focus on their stories....hence my belief that mutants should have more of a presence outside the X-Books and to have the issue come up that those teams have to comment on or engage with. If the Avengers were in the mansion in NYC and not a giant space alien corpse in the arctic...and there were mutants on the team...and there was an anti-mutant protest and Cap gave comments to the press...then it would be addressed.

    As far as mutants coming together...evil is evil...Apocalypse is evil, Sinister is evil, Shaw is evil....you do ally yourself with evil because then you are complicit in it.
    what is your opinions of captain america? cause it's on the name, im pretty sure the thunderbolts and other villains have been more than used by nations that certain heroes serve as propaganda for.
    and we saw the avengers protect an anti mutant rally recently, we have the answer of where they stand.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    Humans Don't need krakoa, they have no necessity or are being wanted on the island, it's not xenophobic when mutants are a in state of preservation and internal growth, its ridiculous to assume they have a responsibility to welcome humanity when the main reason krakoa exists is because humanity DOESN'T welcome them.
    This is about non-mutants, not humanity. Right now Kamala Kahn can't go to Krakoa because she's not a mutant.




    Again, it's a nation not a social club.

    America and europe are enourmous continents that have hundreds of years of history of opression and colonialism that have sucked the rest of the world, hence creating an area where less priveledged people from countries that have suffered for europe/america to grow, move into to get a better life.
    So does Apocalypse and Selene. This discussion isn't questioning Krakoa's right to exist, its about whether it rejecting non-mutants from going there for tourism and immigration is morally right.

    It also posseses the best infrastructure, education, health care for humans.
    The "health care" for mutants in Krakoa is immortality, and resurrection! The rest of humanity don't have permission from Marvel editorial for their scientists to impact their own nations positively with things like this.

    KRAKOA ISNT EVEN ON THE 1 MILLION CITIZENS, its TINY, it produces it's own resources, IT'S MADE FOR MUTANTS with their own needs, quirks and atributes, it wasnt stolen or colonized, its major economical affection is their new type of medicine that they even employ huamn scientists to colaborate with, you cannot compare an TINY ISLAND to TWO CONTINENTS, it makes your argument seem petty and unimformed
    Grenada has a population of 112,535. They can't resurrect people, they don't have super-powers, and they're not resurrecting millions of people from another country to claim as there own based on the genes yet they still let foreigners from numerous countries into their space. Also, their land won't grow unlike Krakoa.

    https://tourismanalytics.com/grenada.html

    You forgot about the deals wth the very human cartels, Selene trying to take over the American government with Norman Osborn, Sinister having his own Suicide Squad, Apocalypse starting a war with Avalon and putting a dangerous reality warper puppet king at the top, and whatever X-Force did to a rival country.

    Krakao employ human scientists but won't let them have rights on their own country.

    Krakoa's a First World super power, though it's borders are like a sieve that a bunch of old ladies can get in without a sweat. https://abload.de/img/15a3j17.jpg

    Ferro, mutants are at their height at the moment at being a global force, whats worrying is that they're tainting all their good works with horrible governing.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 07-12-2020 at 09:19 PM.

  4. #184
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I'd like to see more mutants in the wider MU, to get a broader picture of what's going on with them right now, but I suspect that won't happen, because I think it is highly possible Moira might have one more life in her, as was hinted at by Destiny, so it's possible that there will be a localized reboot within the X-books when that happens, and that becomes unworkable the more they interact with the MU outside of the mutant books.

    And I'm just gonna weigh in on the whole situation being talked about... I largely agree with what Steel Inquisitor and a couple others are saying. I think the X-Men as a group are the baddies.... BUT... most individual mutants that were previously good guys still are. The X-Men's/Xavier's intentions may be good, and I think most individual characters are still good guys, I think a lot of them are being misled and manipulated, but have no ill intent, it may just be manipulation in form of promises of a utopia, but there may even be some actual mind control going on, either from Xavier or Krakoa, which absolves some of the lower ranking mutants from the bad things being done by those higher up, and may explain why there have not been more dissenters among mutants. But as a whole, as an organization, their actions towards that end are pretty horrible. Being a victim doesn't mean you get to just strongarm the world into doing what you want, there are better ways to achieve those goals.

    I also think they are a legit cult, a dangerous and manipulative one. This is even a theme in HoX/PoX. If you are familiar with the BITE model, they check every box in some form, sometimes in several different ways. They are a cult, even if a lot of them don't seem to have twigged to that yet. Cults can have good goals that seem very nice and nonthreatening on the surface, and sometimes they will never do anything bad outside of the fact that they are brainwashing members, but they can still be dangerous either to others or to themselves, even with a peaceful philosophy behind it. Jonestown's guiding principle was one of anti-racism, they founded that town ostensibly in order to live by those ideals. That doesn't make their goals bad, but they did something vile because of they had devoted everything to the vision of a single man who had manipulated them, who then told them they had to first commit murder, and then suicide, and they went along with it because their devotion was so strong. The fact that the mutants have been hurt by humans in the past does not excuse the actions they, (talking specifically about Moira, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and others with a position of more power) are taking now, even if they have a good end goal in mind. Which is debatable, nevermind Apocalypse, Sinister, Magneto, I think Moira is shady as hell, and she's the one really calling the shots here, Xavier is leader only by proxy. She said herself she has been radicalized, and I don't think the initial conclusion we were led to draw, that she was radicalized in favor of the mutant cause, is necessarily correct. I think she wants to use the X-Men as weapons to destroy Orchis and prevent the machines taking over. But I think she also has come to the conclusion, mistaken or not, that mutants are a catalyst there. As long as they exist, some humans will see them as an existential threat, and try to counter them by augmenting themselves, so she may believe the Phalanx will always be inevitable as long as mutants are there. So i think she may want to destroy mutants once she is done with her grand plan of destroying Orchis, in order to prevent the Phalanx thing. But I'm getting off track there. main point being: cult, probably led (albeit by proxy) by someone who may have some very bad ends in mind, though most mutants don't realize this yet.
    Last edited by Raye; 07-12-2020 at 10:08 PM.

  5. #185
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    Krakoa has a lot of internal issues to work through.....but WHAT community or nation does not?
    Name a perfect place and I'll concede.

    So you agree that no nation is perfect? Good...then they should all be held to the same standard you are applying to Krakoa and you should not expect them to be without issues to address. It is annoying to me that when it comes to issues like this, Marvel treats the residents of the U.S like a faceless mob. They should reflect today's climate. For example: The latests polls show that a significant majority of Americans believe Trump is terrible at race relations.

  6. #186
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is about non-mutants, not humanity. Right now Kamala Kahn can't go to Krakoa because she's not a mutant.


    Lmao, she's not dying without Krakoa.
    I'm not seeing the issue.

  7. #187
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Most Americans can barely scrape up the income to fly across the country but their real problem is that they can't enter a tiny island in the middle of the ocean without an escort.
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    Lmao, she's not dying without Krakoa.
    I'm not seeing the issue.
    She's a second generation Pakistani Muslim living in America, the X-men should be able to sympathise with her when it comes to oppression and discrimination but they won't let her in simply because she hasn't got the right genes. That they can't is a sign they're no longer their old selves who would greet someone like her with open arms. There are untold numbers of people who travel to other countries for safety, Krakao's not one of them. And this is not simply about the immigrants or tourists, this is about the skills and knowledge foreigners will bring to make Krkaoa stronger as a nation.

  9. #189
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Kamala does not need Krakoa so I'm failing to see what you're trying to say...she's inhuman and she has Attilan for refuge if she ever runs into trouble.

    You're trying really hard to paint the mutants as cold and heartless and it's not really holding up here...

  10. #190
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    mutants are still building their nation
    its also only been created because of the horrible treatment mutants get outside.

    I don't see why they should have open borders right away?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Of course there is Franklin Richards who ain't going anywhere anytime soon...

    Personally I would like to see the Avengers move back to NYC and have a couple mutants join the team and be against going to Krakoa.

    As well new mutants be created in non-X-Books who are against going for serious reasons.

    Thoughts??
    I like the idea but i don't think it is feasible anymore and to be honest i don't want them to be the central narrative, or a side narrative lol, for team books outside of the X-Book to have to make room for stories for another franchise that barely even bothers to put non-mutant team members in their own team line up. If the path of mutant and non-mutants should cross then Crossovers and event books is where these kind of stories should be and not in a non-mutant team book.
    Last edited by Tofali; 07-13-2020 at 01:10 AM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    They now have resurrection protocols, my dude. If I were a parent and a school had a foolproof way of bringing my kid back from any dumb thing it gets into, any chance accident and so on...I'd sign up there asap.
    Death is not a “dumb thing,” that’s dismissing the gravity of what that is. And the only reason its not traumatic is because their memories about modified without their consent by Xavier. Krakoa isn’t in the business of advertising any of this to outsiders, including mutants who aren’t citizens. Franklin is also vulnerable since his powers are waning at the moment, making him a big target for any villain to take advantage – like Sinister.

    How very 45 of you. Got to say the attitude people here display to the X-Men is incredibly xenophobic and toxic and if translated to the real world, would not be pretty.
    Krakoa is engaging in anti-immigration policies to freeze out every race who don’t belong in their sub-group, stopping all immigration, closing its borders and frightening off foreigners from coming over is a known policy of the Trump administration. This is about the Krakoan government, the real X-men would never do this.

    And as for getting in bed with villains...Franklin's mom made eyes with Namor all the time, his sister is Victor von Doom's god-daughter, his Dad is a grade-A douche who thinks his uncle should have ratted out his friends to McCarthy and was also the builder of Gulag in the Negative Zone during Civil War. And let's not get into how Reed put in tech that nullified his son's mutant signature all without his permission and consent and humiliated him publicly in Zdarsky's first issue.
    Since when was finding a villain attractive bad? It’s not like she ever dated him, like M did with Sabretooth. The FF don’t like Valeria’s relationship with Doom, that was horrible writing for Reed which is why FF fans hate that period while Xavier jumps into business relationships with cartels with great speed. Reed shouldn’t have done that without Franklin’s consent, however, technology like that sounds like a boon to mutant kind don’t you think? Think about it: mutant who are undetectable to Sentinel technology. If Xavier had made this invention would it be so hastily discarded? (Maybe Krakoa will attempt to steal it like it did Reed’s other inventions at a later date.) The FF didn’t bring a war criminal who tries to conquer the world every few years to intimidate humans whenever they want something from them, either.

    Tourism is not the same as immigration. The primary reasons for immigration are largely a) Economic (i.e. opportunities, career and so on), b) Political or Religious Persecution. It's quite expensive to move from the place you are born to somewhere else. And people who do so, weight stuff in the balance (what we can do here, and what we can get done there).
    But tourism is linked to it since it is people visiting other countries and tourism is a strong component to economies. There’s no reason non-humans shouldn’t be able to come to Krakoa to expand its skill and knowledge base or to flee hostile nations. Tourism also boosts economies. They’d be able to do a whole lot more if Krakoa bothered to help them instead of just shutting its doors because they “agree” with the policies of Krakoa the entity. And there’s too many questions unanswered about whether they’re doing that of their own free will.

    IF there's no jobs or opportunities available at Krakoa, there's not a reason to presume that many immigrants want to go to Krakoa. There's no labor shortage in Krakoa, no demand for skilled workers from outside so there's no incentives for Krakoa to promote immigration.
    Except there’s no lack of jobs in Krakoa to those who want it, and there is no homelessness since all they need to do is ask Krakoa for a home and they’ll grow one. Why do these opportunities stop once non-mutants come into the country? Krakaoa, like any nation, benefits from people with skills and they’d get vastly more then they have now by allowing immigration.


    Immigration in Western Europe and USA is a major problem because those countries need immigrants and attract immigrants but generally treat them badly and move goalposts to keep them from becoming full citizens or a part of the community. Their systems and socieites exploit immigrants as a class of people, siphoning their skills and labor vampirically and in a lot of cases, not leaving them with much in the way of love or gratitude. Those real world issues inspire the immigration discourse here but that's not easily translatable or allegorically movable to any other fictional place.
    Krakoa is not a normal place. It is a sentient island which grows, has no homeless, it is inclusive to LGBT and all races (the problem is that this stops once it gets non-mutants – which is why they should make it a top priority to fix that rather than do nothing), is a tropic paradise, and people should logically want to go there for a variety of reasons. This does bring up a concern, do you think Krakaoa would repeat the mistakes of those countries if they had immigrants?

    Again, people need to realize that there are other countries and other places than America, and different experiences across the board.
    Nobody’s doing that.


    And look what happened to Genosha.
    Genosha was destroyed because of Xavier’s evil twin sister, and their lack of a military and air force or radar systems any human nation has, not because they had humans in the country. It wasn’t Battlestar Galactica. They were sitting ducks from Magneto’s surprisingly pacifist decisions, the man who is the de facto Vice President of Krakoa. Personally, I’d be very interested in his reasons for this, why isn’t anyone on Krakoa asking?

    The real reason was because Morrison wanted to get rid of it quickly.

    Not remotely appliclable to Krakoa. Apartheid was enforced by descendants of settlers, invaders, colonizers (i.e. the wrong kind of immigrant) over the majority black population who are native to that land...that's not even remotely like Krakoa. Similar thing with Jim Crow, which was a result of slavery, which doesn't exist in Krakoa.
    You’re correct in that those are the origins of those policies in America, however, it glosses over a big reason for why they did this – which was demonising people over their race. The latter is what Krakoa is doing, we know they accept non-mutants as a second class citizens if they would be there, and the fact they don’t even have non-mutants in the double digits speaks volumes about how beneath them those races are. No Wakandans, no Atlanteans, no aliens, no Eternals (the Eternals they have are mutant variants – including Apocalypse who’s massacred the Eternals before), no Lavamen, no Inhumans, you get the picture. They do have two humans, one’s Northstar’s boyfriend the other is a baby who spends quality time in Avalon as a dragon.

    The hypocrisy and bad faith is astounding. People started this thread to essentially s--ttalk the X-Men behind the backs of the X-Men Board, and then indulge right throughout with mutant-bashing and all the while blather about inclusivity and equal rights without even the slightest consideration for the point of view promulgated in Hickman's run.
    We’re scrutinising Krakoa and its government. Hickman’s X-men shares many qualities in common with the Illuminati: super-human protagonists who are well known super-heroes that make controversial decisions and get into fights with other super-heroes who think they’ve crossed lines. It’s very premature to assume Hickman supports everything Krakao does simply because he writes it. Inclusivity and equal rights apply to everyone and right now Krakoa don’t have the right to a lawyer, a fair trial or a vote in their own country.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    what is your opinions of captain america? cause it's on the name, im pretty sure the thunderbolts and other villains have been more than used by nations that certain heroes serve as propaganda for.
    and we saw the avengers protect an anti mutant rally recently, we have the answer of where they stand.
    Captain America stands for the ideal of America...not the government. And yes...he will stand up for the 1st Amendment Rights of all people...even if he doesn't agree with them. An anti-mutant rally (in-universe) is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church and their nonsense and the Illinois Nazis at Skokie in the 1970s (IRL). So long as an organization is peacefully assembling...no matter what their message....they are constitutionally protected.

    Even in Cap's own book....the Watchdogs were threatening an artist who depicted sexually graphic images. Cap was there to protect the guy...but made it very clear he did not like the guys art.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 07-13-2020 at 04:48 AM.

  14. #194
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This is about non-mutants, not humanity. Right now Kamala Kahn can't go to Krakoa because she's not a mutant.




    Again, it's a nation not a social club.



    So does Apocalypse and Selene. This discussion isn't questioning Krakoa's right to exist, its about whether it rejecting non-mutants from going there for tourism and immigration is morally right.



    The "health care" for mutants in Krakoa is immortality, and resurrection! The rest of humanity don't have permission from Marvel editorial for their scientists to impact their own nations positively with things like this.



    Grenada has a population of 112,535. They can't resurrect people, they don't have super-powers, and they're not resurrecting millions of people from another country to claim as there own based on the genes yet they still let foreigners from numerous countries into their space. Also, their land won't grow unlike Krakoa.

    https://tourismanalytics.com/grenada.html

    You forgot about the deals wth the very human cartels, Selene trying to take over the American government with Norman Osborn, Sinister having his own Suicide Squad, Apocalypse starting a war with Avalon and putting a dangerous reality warper puppet king at the top, and whatever X-Force did to a rival country.

    Krakao employ human scientists but won't let them have rights on their own country.

    Krakoa's a First World super power, though it's borders are like a sieve that a bunch of old ladies can get in without a sweat. https://abload.de/img/15a3j17.jpg

    Ferro, mutants are at their height at the moment at being a global force, whats worrying is that they're tainting all their good works with horrible governing.
    Kamala has attilan and the united states of america and her parents, mutants have krakoa.

    Selene and apocalypse have a large body count, but not comparable to the genocide and colonization employed by western civilizations, they are individuals.

    Also Grenada suffers severely from gentrification and long standing issues derived from colonialism, it was under british rule until 1974, and like every other small island that has gone trough hundreds of years under european or USA rulersip, trust and belive me many people there wish they could have the control and independency to take care of their own people, instead many are reduced to second class citizens while "immigrants" from priveledged first world countries make these islands their vacation paradises while the natives deal with increasing living costs , sexual tourism, issues with the increasing global warming.

    Letting people in doesnt mean the natives are respected and have the agency to benefit from it, many times like how mark zuckenberg was going to sue native hawaians to take their land to build a mansion, the people that actually were born in said islands are reduced to second class citizens.

    This sort of argument with all due respect, shows you have an extremelly narrow point of view of socio political dynamics in countries that have been opressed, you have no way to be sure anyone that wants to live in krakoa wouldn't demand the island to move away from its original purpose to provide mutants with resources they never had, to apease and make the humans who have 99 % of the world cattered to them, comfortable.
    Or at another extreme that these humans aren't spies or have intentions to sabotage the island and take its resources and power for themselves.
    Krakoa has the priviledge many island states dont, the ability to control and to protect itself and it's interests, once they want to bring humans to visit, it will be by their own rules and process, but since it's a young nation and has already been atacked by outsiders, it be suicidal to allow anyone you can't trust or bargain with in.
    And for what? to make the humans that in decades have never once lifted a finger to help or even give basic respect? they can go to any other tropical island.

    This argument is just very entitled, it's very much like a spoiled child that normally has 60 gifts for christmas now has 59 because someone else that never had a gift finaly get's one and throws an enourmous tantrum, when you are used to inequality and benefit from it, equality feels like a personal injustice.
    Mutant's have no responsibility to humanity, plain and simple.
    Last edited by Ferro; 07-13-2020 at 05:14 AM.

  15. #195
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    The principles on which Krakoa is built make it a xenophobic nation… The “stranger” is everything what is not mutant and every mutant is considered as “a brother”, not matter what his heart is made of…
    The question is: “Does the rest of Marvel really need mutants to make interesting stories?”
    In my opinion, they can make other kinds of stories that have nothing to do with mutant drama…

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