Should mutants have more of a presence outside the X-Books?

[tg1982]

I wouldn’t mind seeing mutants in general outside the X-Men comics, either just mutants in general or X characters. Truth be told I’m kind of tired of the “Us against Them” that the abysmal AvX created. Just my opinion.

[Huntsman Spider]

That was basically the point of the Uncanny Avengers. He created that Avengers team literally as the living embodiment of Xaviers dream of human and mutant co-existance.

But we all know that anything anyone does, be it Steve or Xavier, will fail for the simple reason that marvel doesn't want mutant position to improve. The X-Mens entire existance is fuelled by that conflict.

And even from an in-story perspective, we can't completely over-estimate Caps ability to influence the government or public. See Civil War.

To me, that's frankly laziness on their end. I mean, if even Spider-Man was allowed to improve his relationship with the public and not be so hated and feared and distrusted as he used to be . . .

Not to mention even if Captain America did have the influence it would only be for the USA. Other Nations could still hold negative views.

Good point, come to think of it. Sometimes I get caught up in Steve Rogers as a moral exemplar beyond national boundaries and forget that a lot of people, in-universe and in real life, would still only see him for his American colors.

I wouldn’t mind seeing mutants in general outside the X-Men comics, either just mutants in general or X characters. Truth be told I’m kind of tired of the “Us against Them” that the abysmal AvX created. Just my opinion.

Same here, to be honest.

[XPac]

To me, that's frankly laziness on their end. I mean, if even Spider-Man was allowed to improve his relationship with the public and not be so hated and feared and distrusted as he used to be . . .



Good point, come to think of it. Sometimes I get caught up in Steve Rogers as a moral exemplar beyond national boundaries and forget that a lot of people, in-universe and in real life, would still only see him for his American colors.



Same here, to be honest.

It can theoretically improve anytime the X writers want it to. But it doesn't seem to be the direction is going at the moment.

[JTHM]

I mean, a speech from Captain America, who seems to be universally respected, if not admired, on most occasions, on how wrong it is to brutalize and terrorize fellow Americans, fellow human beings, just because of their genetics and how that's not much different from how the Nazis treated everyone that wasn't "pure Aryan," would go a long way toward getting the general public to reconsider its stance on mutants. Furthermore, nonmutant superheroes such as the Avengers and Fantastic Four who have cooperated with human authorities and government forces in the past could threaten to withdraw continued cooperation if those authorities and forces persist in persecuting mutants, forcing them to evaluate if it would be worth losing the resources that could be lent to them by cooperative nonmutant heroes just to satisfy their hatred and contempt of mutants. Actions like that, to me, would have gone a long way toward improving mutants' position within the larger Marvel Universe before they ended up f***ing off to Krakoa.

For the same reason many of the status quo-enforced elements of the universe can't be advanced further. I don't think your point is entirely fair considering this is the same universe where Reed Richards is probably amongst the smartest minds in the multiverse though he hasn't yet lifted human civilization to unthinkable heights. You can have heroes being aware of how badly mutants are treated and try it as much as they can to help without necessarily destroying the status quo and without having to paint the normal heroes as oblivious.

[Huntsman Spider]

For the same reason many of the status quo-enforced elements of the universe can't be advanced further. I don't think your point is entirely fair considering this is the same universe where Reed Richards is probably amongst the smartest minds in the multiverse though he hasn't yet lifted human civilization to unthinkable heights. You can have heroes being aware of how badly mutants are treated and try it as much as they can to help without necessarily destroying the status quo and without having to paint the normal heroes as oblivious.

I have to say, though, at some point, if a status quo continues to be unfair and unjust, then it perhaps merits being destroyed for the greater good of those who've been most victimized by that unfairness and injustice. Given the situation leading into Krakoa, I find it hard to believe that the X-Men's alliances with nonmutant superheroes wouldn't have merited some form of action on their part to defend their mutant comrades without them either being oblivious, or even worse, just not caring that much. I honestly don't want to think that, because I really do love all of these characters. Still, it is troubling to think that maybe they're just as helpless to stem the tide of anti-mutant bigotry as anybody else in the Marvel Universe, and if that's the case, what does it mean for us in the real world?

[Steel Inquisitor]

I have to say, though, at some point, if a status quo continues to be unfair and unjust, then it perhaps merits being destroyed for the greater good of those who've been most victimized by that unfairness and injustice. Given the situation leading into Krakoa, I find it hard to believe that the X-Men's alliances with nonmutant superheroes wouldn't have merited some form of action on their part to defend their mutant comrades without them either being oblivious, or even worse, just not caring that much. I honestly don't want to think that, because I really do love all of these characters. Still, it is troubling to think that maybe they're just as helpless to stem the tide of anti-mutant bigotry as anybody else in the Marvel Universe, and if that's the case, what does it mean for us in the real world?

This is not a stasis quo which can be destroyed that easily, it comes from art - it thrives on being relevant in the real world (since racism and oppression isn't going anywhere), it is important to audiences who like the X-men/mutant kind being in that position to sympathise with otherwise they'd just be another super-hero team and that's their niche. No company in the world is going to give up that money who likes those stories. The X-men will never break this stays quo since it's not natural to their world, it's forced on them by writers and editors in ours.

Except their world has greater restrictions to their actions than we do, that's what JTHM was getting at. Reed, by himself, could change Marvel earth with his inventions but marvel's not going to let him do that and they're not going to let him or anyone else, break the jurisdictions editorials have on their section of Marvel. Even Hickman, and he's a big fan of Reed. The X-men, and Spider-man, like to keep in their mini-universe bubbles, as well. The readers and editors don't want them coming in and fixing their problems - it's why the X-men let Peter Parker get framed for murder and did nothing about it, despite the fact he's supposed to be their friend.

"Not caring" isn't as simple explanation for why things go like they do in comic books, and this would make the X-men just as culpable - it's not just a mutant kind only problem.

[XPac]

I have to say, though, at some point, if a status quo continues to be unfair and unjust, then it perhaps merits being destroyed for the greater good of those who've been most victimized by that unfairness and injustice. Given the situation leading into Krakoa, I find it hard to believe that the X-Men's alliances with nonmutant superheroes wouldn't have merited some form of action on their part to defend their mutant comrades without them either being oblivious, or even worse, just not caring that much. I honestly don't want to think that, because I really do love all of these characters. Still, it is troubling to think that maybe they're just as helpless to stem the tide of anti-mutant bigotry as anybody else in the Marvel Universe, and if that's the case, what does it mean for us in the real world?

This is a problem super heroes can fix. You can't defeat bigotry by throwing a magical hammer at it. Super heroes are there to beat up bad guys ... and that's the extent of it. They won't end bigotry anymore than they would end world hunger or end global warming. THey're just there to punch out bad guys.

If the X writers wanted to show other heroes try and do more, sure they could... but their efforts would fail because that's what the X writers want. And that's somewhat of an inherent problem with the X-Men corner of the MU... it throws everyone under the bus in order to sustain the narrative of mutants being the victims. The public, the government, and even other super heroes are made to look bad so that mutants can continue to play the victim. In a lot of ways I sometimes think mutants should get their own world separate from the rest of the MU, but it is what it is.

[Huntsman Spider]

This is not a stasis quo which can be destroyed that easily, it comes from art - it thrives on being relevant in the real world (since racism and oppression isn't going anywhere), it is important to audiences who like the X-men/mutant kind being in that position to sympathise with otherwise they'd just be another super-hero team and that's their niche. No company in the world is going to give up that money who likes those stories. The X-men will never break this stays quo since it's not natural to their world, it's forced on them by writers and editors in ours.

Except their world has greater restrictions to their actions than we do, that's what JTHM was getting at. Reed, by himself, could change Marvel earth with his inventions but marvel's not going to let him do that and they're not going to let him or anyone else, break the jurisdictions editorials have on their section of Marvel. Even Hickman, and he's a big fan of Reed. The X-men, and Spider-man, like to keep in their mini-universe bubbles, as well. The readers and editors don't want them coming in and fixing their problems - it's why the X-men let Peter Parker get framed for murder and did nothing about it, despite the fact he's supposed to be their friend.

"Not caring" isn't as simple explanation for why things go like they do in comic books, and this would make the X-men just as culpable - it's not just a mutant kind only problem.

This is a problem super heroes can fix. You can't defeat bigotry by throwing a magical hammer at it. Super heroes are there to beat up bad guys ... and that's the extent of it. They won't end bigotry anymore than they would end world hunger or end global warming. THey're just there to punch out bad guys.

If the X writers wanted to show other heroes try and do more, sure they could... but their efforts would fail because that's what the X writers want. And that's somewhat of an inherent problem with the X-Men corner of the MU... it throws everyone under the bus in order to sustain the narrative of mutants being the victims. The public, the government, and even other super heroes are made to look bad so that mutants can continue to play the victim. In a lot of ways I sometimes think mutants should get their own world separate from the rest of the MU, but it is what it is.

Interesting points. At least with Reed Richards not changing the very face of human society with his inventions, there are a few good in-universe justifications, such as the logical and valid fear of those inventions being misused by those with ill intent, or --- like in Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man --- a longstanding conspiracy by corrupt corporate/government types to create and employ supervillains as a means of distraction so the superheroes are too busy fighting them to use their powers and resources to change the world for the better.

However, the issue I find with the X-Men's narrative with regards to the rest of the MU is that humankind, particularly the authorities and government forces, is made out to be so utterly bigoted and hateful that they endorse or excuse what amounts to genocide, and somehow, that's just something that everyone else shrugs and says, "It is what it is." Personally, in light of the real-world reckoning with centuries of continued injustice and marginalization, I can't really bring myself to accept that line of thinking anymore. Furthermore, the very concept of superheroes as completely impotent in matters other than punching out obvious "bad guys" flies in the face of them as an aspirational ideal of goodness, not to mention that if people in real life really thought bigotry was something that couldn't be at least resisted, we wouldn't have Captain America punching Hitler on the cover of his first comic book, let alone the very existence of the X-Men. The point, ultimately, is that superheroes aren't supposed to be the ones who throw up their hands and say that nothing can be done in the face of injustice; they are supposed to be the ones who stand up and fight injustice, wherever they find it, and in doing so, inspire ordinary people (readers and in-universe characters alike) to do the same.

[Chris0013]

Interesting points. At least with Reed Richards not changing the very face of human society with his inventions, there are a few good in-universe justifications, such as the logical and valid fear of those inventions being misused by those with ill intent, or --- like in Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man --- a longstanding conspiracy by corrupt corporate/government types to create and employ supervillains as a means of distraction so the superheroes are too busy fighting them to use their powers and resources to change the world for the better.

However, the issue I find with the X-Men's narrative with regards to the rest of the MU is that humankind, particularly the authorities and government forces, is made out to be so utterly bigoted and hateful that they endorse or excuse what amounts to genocide, and somehow, that's just something that everyone else shrugs and says, "It is what it is." Personally, in light of the real-world reckoning with centuries of continued injustice and marginalization, I can't really bring myself to accept that line of thinking anymore. Furthermore, the very concept of superheroes as completely impotent in matters other than punching out obvious "bad guys" flies in the face of them as an aspirational ideal of goodness, not to mention that if people in real life really thought bigotry was something that couldn't be at least resisted, we wouldn't have Captain America punching Hitler on the cover of his first comic book, let alone the very existence of the X-Men. The point, ultimately, is that superheroes aren't supposed to be the ones who throw up their hands and say that nothing can be done in the face of injustice; they are supposed to be the ones who stand up and fight injustice, wherever they find it, and in doing so, inspire ordinary people (readers and in-universe characters alike) to do the same.

This for me is really where the issue is...if they want to present the racism...do so in a real world manner. The vast majority of people in the real world are not racist...but in the MU they pretty much present 99.9% of humans as racist against mutants. It is the rare human who is not presented as such.

[Huntsman Spider]

This for me is really where the issue is...if they want to present the racism...do so in a real world manner. The vast majority of people in the real world are not racist...but in the MU they pretty much present 99.9% of humans as racist against mutants. It is the rare human who is not presented as such.

Fair enough, I'd suppose.

[XPac]

Interesting points. At least with Reed Richards not changing the very face of human society with his inventions, there are a few good in-universe justifications, such as the logical and valid fear of those inventions being misused by those with ill intent, or --- like in Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man --- a longstanding conspiracy by corrupt corporate/government types to create and employ supervillains as a means of distraction so the superheroes are too busy fighting them to use their powers and resources to change the world for the better.

However, the issue I find with the X-Men's narrative with regards to the rest of the MU is that humankind, particularly the authorities and government forces, is made out to be so utterly bigoted and hateful that they endorse or excuse what amounts to genocide, and somehow, that's just something that everyone else shrugs and says, "It is what it is." Personally, in light of the real-world reckoning with centuries of continued injustice and marginalization, I can't really bring myself to accept that line of thinking anymore. Furthermore, the very concept of superheroes as completely impotent in matters other than punching out obvious "bad guys" flies in the face of them as an aspirational ideal of goodness, not to mention that if people in real life really thought bigotry was something that couldn't be at least resisted, we wouldn't have Captain America punching Hitler on the cover of his first comic book, let alone the very existence of the X-Men. The point, ultimately, is that superheroes aren't supposed to be the ones who throw up their hands and say that nothing can be done in the face of injustice; they are supposed to be the ones who stand up and fight injustice, wherever they find it, and in doing so, inspire ordinary people (readers and in-universe characters alike) to do the same.

There are a million things super heroes can do to make the world a better place... the problem is marvel in particular doesn't want the world to be a better place. It wants it to be the same world as the one outside our window. Hank Pyms pym particle could probably solve world hunger in a week. And that would save far more lives than stopping the Whizzer when he's trying to rob a bank. But comics don't work that way. They just don't.

If you really press the issue, super heroes look terrible for not doing more to make the world a better place. Readers know it, and writers know it... but that's just not the world they want. So we as readers have to suspend our belief because that's frankly all we can do, short of not reading or buying the books.

[Huntsman Spider]

There are a million things super heroes can do to make the world a better place... the problem is marvel in particular doesn't want the world to be a better place. It wants it to be the same world as the one outside our window. Hank Pyms pym particle could probably solve world hunger in a week. And that would save far more lives than stopping the Whizzer when he's trying to rob a bank. But comics don't work that way. They just don't.

If you really press the issue, super heroes look terrible for not doing more to make the world a better place. Readers know it, and writers know it... but that's just not the world they want. So we as readers have to suspend our belief because that's frankly all we can do, short of not reading or buying the books.

Alas, yeah.

[Alan2099]

This for me is really where the issue is...if they want to present the racism...do so in a real world manner. The vast majority of people in the real world are not racist...but in the MU they pretty much present 99.9% of humans as racist against mutants. It is the rare human who is not presented as such.

I'd be okay if they just toned it down to "we don't like your kind here" and the occasionally mutant getting beaten by a bunch of drunken rednecks instead of the super hightech murder squads they keep bring into the books.

[Chris0013]

I'd be okay if they just toned it down to "we don't like your kind here" and the occasionally mutant getting beaten by a bunch of drunken rednecks instead of the super hightech murder squads they keep bring into the books.

Would rather see the mutant beat the drunken rednecks...but this is probably my hatred of the way they killed Rahne who would have smacked those drunken frat boys around but the writer wanted to sacrifice her at the alter of anti-mutant racism to show how bad mutants have it.

I have posted about his many times...they should show anti-mutant sentiment as more of a pendulum that swings back and forth as time goes on. Yes there is a group that will always be anti...but the size waxes and wanes over time.

[Ultimate Captain America]

The X-Men are hated and feared just because they want. Xavier can end all this in a couple of days at most, using Cerebro to rewrite the minds of all those who hate mutants so that they don't (or merely reduce the "hates mutants with a passion and is willing to kill them" to just a mere "does not like mutants").