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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The problem is if Donna and Cassie can't be in Wonder Woman's family why add Bobby? I don't hate the idea. I just want the two back then have him

  2. #32
    Mighty Member warzon's Avatar
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    Well they never said who Bobby's father was just his Mother so maybe his father could be Jason Diana's brother which is where he would get his powers from.

  3. #33
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    So, all of this new interest in Wonder Boy started with Luciano Vecchio's fan comic? I didn't even know there was a fan comic. I just found out.

    Luciano did the art for this, by the way. He's got a whole gallery on his fan creation, Eros the Wonder Boy, drawn in different outfits, or as a bearded adult, a black youth, ..all on his Deviant Art thing.

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    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-21-2020 at 07:19 PM.
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  4. #34
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    So, all of this new interest in Wonder Boy started with Luciano Vecchio's fan comic? I didn't even know there was a fan comic. I just found out.

    Luciano did the art for this, by the way. He's got a whole gallery on his fan creation, Eros the Wonder Boy, drawn in different outfits, or as a bearded adult, a black youth, ..all on his Deviant Art thing.
    Eros seems to stand for gaiety or gay freedom, though the Rainbow Flag isn't reflected in his costume, ..clearly indicating he is a lieutenant of Diana and a protector of the same American ideals, she does. By Rucka-logic, the colors and iconography of the Wonder-uniform is now associated with ancient Greek and Amazon culture, and Eros's uniform also fits in. Considering all of that, perhaps, Bobby should visually represent or express something with his uniform.

    Should Bobby's colors inspire something in the people or culture he is protecting, the way Diana's inspired Americans, in the grip of despair, in World War II? I am leaning towards 'yes', on this, ..but remain undecided. I think there are people, who happen to be black, in America and on the African continent, who might find a Wonder Boy, outfitted in culturally relevant colors, ..very uplifting. Almost spiritually transformative, as with the release of the Black Panther film! I would love to hear what some of you think about that.

    Should Bobby Barnes be a symbol of African American or African national identity ..or nationalism? American nationalism, the good kind, lifted America out of despair in World War II, after the September 11th Bombings, and pop culture characters, like Wonder Woman, the Golden Age Wonderboy and Uncle Sam, were part of that. Should Bobby be a symbol of black Chicago, black Africa or black Brazil ..or blackness, at all? Does Bobby, as a black person, have a duty to uplift or inspire oppressed and disenfranchised black people, specifically...?

    Or should symbolism of the Wonder Woman Family be consistently global? There are oppressed and disenfranchised groups of people, of ALL races, cultures and religions, ..all over the world. What's Bobby's role, as Wonder Boy? I am really, really undecided, on this one.

    And do some of you see Bobby, as gay? A black version of Luciano's gay 'Eros' character?

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    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-22-2020 at 05:41 PM.
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  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Should Bobby's colors inspire something in the people or culture he is protecting, the way Diana's inspired Americans, in the grip of despair, in World War II? I am leaning towards 'yes', on this, ..but remain undecided. I think there are people, who happen to be black, in America and on the African continent, who might find a Wonder Boy, outfitted in culturally relevant colors, ..very uplifting. Almost spiritually transformative! I would love to hear what some of you think about that.
    I'd find it difficult for him to outfitted in "culturally relevant" colors for Africa, since there are so many different (and sometimes fighting) cultures there. Plus, my understanding is that Africans don't generally feel any special connection to African Americans. Frankly, I also don't think all of Africa should be treated as one entity. An actual African hero, from an actual real African country, from an actual ethnic group, and not about the rest would be different. I don't mean in an exclusionary way, but rather that it's just outside that hero's scope/thought process - the same way the Flash isn't about Canada even if he happens to have an occasional adventure there. I do feel like Africa in fiction often gets treated like a country instead of continent of many countries (with some admittedly arbitrary boundaries). Not that one would expect American writers to get one particular country right. Then again, one doesn't expect a Zambian writer to get New Zealand right, either.

    I'll admit, though, that I'm not that interested in that concept. I don't expect people from other countries to be all that interested in a hero that's all about inspiring America or Americans, either.

    And do some of you see Bobby, as gay? A black version of Luciano's gay 'Eros' character?
    I honestly didn't think there was enough to go on (I've only read one issue because I looked him up the first time I aw him mentioned here - an unaware if he appeared otherwise). Kind of a blank slate to work with. I'd probably go with him straight for the simple reason that I'd be wary of inadvertently sending the message that only gay (and/or unmasculine, given some costume suggestions) men/boys are fans of Wonder Woman (I'm talking about fans as opposed to lusting after her). This might particularly be important with a tween or young teen audience.

  6. #36
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'd find it difficult for him to outfitted in "culturally relevant" colors for Africa, since there are so many different (and sometimes fighting) cultures there. Plus, my understanding is that Africans don't generally feel any special connection to African Americans. Frankly, I also don't think all of Africa should be treated as one entity. An actual African hero, from an actual real African country, from an actual ethnic group, and not about the rest would be different. I don't mean in an exclusionary way, but rather that it's just outside that hero's scope/thought process - the same way the Flash isn't about Canada even if he happens to have an occasional adventure there. I do feel like Africa in fiction often gets treated like a country instead of continent of many countries (with some admittedly arbitrary boundaries). Not that one would expect American writers to get one particular country right. Then again, one doesn't expect a Zambian writer to get New Zealand right, either.

    I'll admit, though, that I'm not that interested in that concept. I don't expect people from other countries to be all that interested in a hero that's all about inspiring America or Americans, either.

    I honestly didn't think there was enough to go on (I've only read one issue because I looked him up the first time I aw him mentioned here - an unaware if he appeared otherwise). Kind of a blank slate to work with. I'd probably go with him straight for the simple reason that I'd be wary of inadvertently sending the message that only gay (and/or unmasculine, given some costume suggestions) men/boys are fans of Wonder Woman (I'm talking about fans as opposed to lusting after her). This might particularly be important with a tween or young teen audience.
    There are enough Amazons to send to every nation, on the face of the Earth. Not to get too far off 'Bobby as Wonder Boy', ..but, is that the Wonder Woman Family's role in the larger scheme of things? Does being a Wonder automatically make you a nationalist or tribalist muse for spiritual and moral uplifting of cultural groups? LGBT people? Georgians? Turks? Greeks? Brazillians? Irish?

    Is that the duty of a Wonder, and how does that enlist Bobby in the tradition? What sort of Wonder should be, besides, as with Donna and Cassie, being a lieutenant of Diana's? With movements for 'Black Lives', presently in struggle, ..does Bobby have a responsibility to be or represent more, than his Caucasian sisters? With the return of Nubia, a prospective enlistment of Bobby and an LGBT Prince Jason, ..should the role of being a Wonder-anything change to address the times, in which we live?

    If Bobby is gay, should he be a Rainbow Flag-wearing Wonder Boy? If he's living in Central Africa, should he be wearing the red and black in the OP's attached fan art? What sort of Wonder should he be?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-22-2020 at 05:38 PM.
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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There are enough Amazons to send to every nation, on the face of the Earth. Not to get too far off 'Bobby as Wonder Boy', ..but, is that the Wonder Woman Family's role in the larger scheme of things? Does being a Wonder automatically make you a nationalist or tribalist muse for spiritual and moral uplifting of cultural groups?
    I'd vote "no," but I'll admit to be a fan of standard superheroes. And while I definitely see the value of Diana as a spreader of feminist values and other Amazonian values, I certainly wouldn't want all Amazons doing so. Too much like proselytizing, which has an especially bad flavor when interacting with groups that Christians previously tried to "civilize" (and rule over and take everything of value from). Not that thinking of them as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses that come knocking on your door is great, either.

    Is that the duty of a Wonder, and how does that enlist Bobby in the tradition? What sort of Wonder should be, besides, as with Donna and Cassie, being a lieutenant of Diana's?
    I don't like either of them as lieutenants of Diana's, either (indeed, you will see from prior posts that I am adamant about former sidekicks growing up and away from their mentors in the sense that they no longer work for them, but are truly independent - not that Donna was ever Diana's sidekick, anyway). Even if they can't reach equal prominence in the fandom or pop culture, they absolutely should not remain eternally in a subordinate role in their world. They don't need to be lieutenants serving Diana's goals, but serving their own goals, instead.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-22-2020 at 05:53 PM.

  8. #38
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'd vote "no," but I'll admit to be a fan of standard superheroes. And while I definitely see the value of Diana as a spreader of feminist values and other Amazonian values, I certainly wouldn't want all Amazons doing so. Too much like proselytizing, which has an especially bad flavor when interacting with groups that Christians previously tried to "civilize" (and rule over and take everything of value from). Not that thinking of them as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses that come knocking on your door is great, either.

    I don't like either of them as lieutenants of Diana's, either (indeed, you will see from prior posts that I am adamant about former sidekicks growing up and away from their mentors in the sense that they no longer work for them, but are truly independent - not that Donna was ever Diana's sidekick, anyway). Even if they can't reach equal prominence in the fandom or pop culture, they absolutely should not remain eternally in a subordinate role in their world. They don't need to be lieutenants serving Diana's goals, but serving their own goals, instead.
    Confession...Batmen of All Nations fan, over here! I have always mused that the Wonder Woman Family, should one ever materialize, might take up a similar mission, in Man's World. Frankly, I think they'd do a much better job of it, than the morbid Batfolk ..and their gritty, angst-ridden approach to things.

    While I am undecided on what Bobby's thing, should be, I think being a symbol for oppressed people should be a consideration of the Wonders, ..like a creed for them. Should he have a little thing or a big thing? Should his thing be the same, as his sisters'? I don't know, ..but, it should be on the table, between them. The Wonders, more than any superhero family, should care about inspiring people, everywhere, to stand up for the freedom of their fellow humans, ..just as the Greek goddesses did for the enslaved Amazons, in ancient times. For Bobby and his sisters, following the example of Diana and the Amazons, before her...

    Being a Wonder makes you a champion of freedom.
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Being a Wonder makes you a champion of freedom.
    Well, it's a long way from the old days where being a slave was fine, so long as you had a good master, but I'm good with getting away from that.

    I don't like "themes" for the families, either. To me, they should be individuals with different primary goals. They weren't all raised the same way, nor would the they necessarily all have the same values.

    And I think this sounds like a way to make the books more about messaging and less about entertainment. I like a message, don't get me wrong, but entertainment comes first. I don't go to church, and don't want sermons (or after-school-specials) in all my comic stories.

    For Bobby and his sisters, following the example of Diana and the Amazons, before her...
    Don't really see a lot of that from prior Amazons, who have been on their island, not spreading freedom, for millennia.

  10. #40
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Well, it's a long way from the old days where being a slave was fine, so long as you had a good master, but I'm good with getting away from that...Don't really see a lot of that from prior Amazons, who have been on their island, not spreading freedom, for millennia.
    The DC Comics Amazons, prior to their liberation from slavery and coming to Paradise Island, fought for the freedom of women and children in ancient Greece. So, for them, freedom and love of life really is a sort of theology, and that's been a constant, from Marston to Perez. Yeah, we've had Genesis, Zero Hour, New 52 and Rebirth, ..but, I'm pretty sure all of that Amazon philosophy is still in play.

    No, all of the Wonders don't need to be card-carrying Amazon philosophers and can have their own individual life-paths. However, if Eros the Wonder Boy is a champion of gayness or gay rights, from his origin in the fan comic, does Bobby share that mission? Is Bobby just a black version of the same character? What is Bobby's superheroic mission?

    I imagine Bobby just being a guy (no sexuality, in there) who grew up, travelling the African continent and the Arab world, with his Uncle Trevor, ..but, that's my idea. Who is he, and how does he become a Wonder Boy?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-23-2020 at 12:34 AM.
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  11. #41
    Lover of Wonderful Things FutureWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Eros seems to stand for gaiety or gay freedom, though the Rainbow Flag isn't reflected in his costume, ..clearly indicating he is a lieutenant of Diana and a protector of the same American ideals, she does.
    Diana is a "protector of American ideals"??

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The DC Comics Amazons, prior to their liberation from slavery and coming to Paradise Island, fought for the freedom of women and children in ancient Greece. So, for them, freedom and love of life really is a sort of theology, and that's been a constant, from Marston to Perez. Yeah, we've had Genesis, Zero Hour, New 52 and Rebirth, ..but, I'm pretty sure all of that Amazon philosophy is still in play.
    It's been a long time, but I don't recall any reference to them historically fighting for women and children at the very beginning (though their champion was sent to fight for liberty for all womankind). Probably was introduced soon after, though, if I'm not just forgetting it. I mean, it's consistent with Diana's character, anyway. Though I will certainly agree they've always been about love, with Aphrodite as the primary in the old days. Nonetheless, they spent thousands of years not doing that after (at most) a few decades of doing so. If Hippolyta was the first queen of Amazons back then. I just can't remember. But even if she wasn't, it was more of their history not being involved in the outside world and spreading/fighting for those values than doing so.


    No, all of the Wonders don't need to be card-carrying Amazon philosophers and can have their own individual life-paths. However, if Eros the Wonder Boy is a champion of gayness or gay rights, from his origin in the fan comic, does Bobby share that mission? Is Bobby just a black version of the same character? What is Bobby's superheroic mission?

    I imagine Bobby just being a guy (no sexuality, in there) who grew up, travelling the African continent and the Arab world, with his Uncle Trevor, ..but, that's my idea. Who is he, and how does he become a Wonder Boy?
    Well, I know I said Bobby was a pretty blank slate, but I'd say that's not all that consistent with the little we had in the actual comic. Never read the fan comic for Eros. But I'm sure few would care if you went that way, given how small Bobby's presence was in canon. Do you just want Eros from the fancomic renamed? I mean, do you have a reason to specifically want it to be Bobby v. an OC? It doesn't matter if you do want the fancomic version (or an entirely original character), I'm just trying to figure out your desire. Not having read the fancomic probably puts me at a loss here.

    For me, what I got from canonical Bobby was a fan. Someone who'd been a huge fan of Wonder Woman since childhood and got to spend a day with his hero. Not a lot there, like I said. But enthusiastic, and fairly typical, American boy who (like Cassie) would probably jump at the chance to get involved in the superhero life because it's so darn cool. Also, his mother wouldn't like that, and is a bit threatened by Diana.

    Can't say I'm really fond of the Wonder-fame-setup there (Wonder magazine, the Scene appearances, etc.). Consistent with the goals of WW at the time, I guess, but not my thing.

    Feel similarly about the motorcycle and varied costumes seem like trying so hard to be cool (but I guess she is for Bobby). I know that's older (recall from Lynda Carter). And it's a deliberate reference, of course, made even more clear by the final page. So it gets a pass.

    Diana is a "protector of American ideals"??
    Well, America was the "last citadel of democracy, and of equal rights for women" in All-Star #8. Can't deny the pro-American propaganda of those early stories. And, of course, it becomes Diana's adopted home. She doesn't love all places (save Paradise Island) equally. She is, in her origins, a more nationalistic figure for the USA than many other heroes. I think her origins being tied to the war have been a barrier
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-23-2020 at 04:38 AM.

  13. #43
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    ...Well, I know I said Bobby was a pretty blank slate, but I'd say that's not all that consistent with the little we had in the actual comic. Never read the fan comic for Eros. But I'm sure few would care if you went that way, given how small Bobby's presence was in canon. Do you just want Eros from the fancomic renamed? I mean, do you have a reason to specifically want it to be Bobby v. an OC? It doesn't matter if you do want the fancomic version (or an entirely original character), I'm just trying to figure out your desire. Not having read the fancomic probably puts me at a loss here.

    For me, what I got from canonical Bobby was a fan. Someone who'd been a huge fan of Wonder Woman since childhood and got to spend a day with his hero. Not a lot there, like I said. But enthusiastic, and fairly typical, American boy who (like Cassie) would probably jump at the chance to get involved in the superhero life because it's so darn cool. Also, his mother wouldn't like that, and is a bit threatened by Diana...Well, America was the "last citadel of democracy, and of equal rights for women" in All-Star #8. Can't deny the pro-American propaganda of those early stories. And, of course, it becomes Diana's adopted home. She doesn't love all places (save Paradise Island) equally. She is, in her origins, a more nationalistic figure for the USA than many other heroes. I think her origins being tied to the war have been a barrier
    Truthfully, at the time I saw the OP's Bobby, I had forgotten about Luciano and his fan comic, entirely - saw him as a new fan creation! I imagined this NEW Bobby Barnes to be a teenaged Indiana Jones, who came upon his Wonder-powers, exploring Africa and the Arab world, with his Uncle Trevor. Considering Luciano's work is so distinctive, when I remembered who the artist was, I was actually a little embarrassed.

    On a sidebar, I must agree with you that writers haven't done the best job of imagining stories for the WW comic, that aren't weighed down by Steve Trevor's military career and the American iconography on Wonder Woman's costume. These things shouldn't limit what we can imagine her doing, ..or where we can imagine her doing it. As in the Marston Era, I want to see Diana carry those colors and that golden eagle into dark, hopeless places, where they mean nothing, ..and make them mean something amazing! I think that's what all the Wonders, no matter their origins, race or beliefs, should be sworn to doing.

    It's what a Wonder Boy should do.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-23-2020 at 02:48 PM.
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    One reason I’d like a Bobby as Wonder Boy to be gay is to avoid tokenism and have more than one gay character as part of the supporting cast. I can imagine and would like to see Bobby and Achilles have a friendship that explores the spectrum of gayness and shared community within their interactions in stories.

    In my Wonder World, I can imagine a day when and issues where Achilles, Kevin Mayer, Lance Gardner and his boyfriend Tod, and Bobby all invite Diana to her city’s Gay Pride weekend celebration, that obviously ends up having some superheriox dramaz happen.

    I also have other Wonder family members I’m working on that similarly explore more diversity in character and characterization.

  15. #45
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    One reason I’d like a Bobby as Wonder Boy to be gay is to avoid tokenism and have more than one gay character as part of the supporting cast. I can imagine and would like to see Bobby and Achilles have a friendship that explores the spectrum of gayness and shared community within their interactions in stories.

    In my Wonder World, I can imagine a day when and issues where Achilles, Kevin Mayer, Lance Gardner and his boyfriend Tod, and Bobby all invite Diana to her city’s Gay Pride weekend celebration, that obviously ends up having some superheriox dramaz happen.

    I also have other Wonder family members I’m working on that similarly explore more diversity in character and characterization.
    Presently, there's more important LGBTA characters, than straight - Prince Jason, Etta Candy, Cheetah, Hippolyta, Philipis, Atalantea [?]...now, Bobby? How is this comic not set, in Gateway City?!
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